Will There Be A 7 Year Tribulation? Probably Not!

[Shilohsfoal]

You people really need to try to understand how the beast and false prophet fits into Daniel's time of the end.You would get alot better understanding of the events to take place there.If you cant fit the first and second beasts into this chapter,you have no understanding of the chapter .

 

[samuel]

"It took the Israelites 7x7 or 49 weeks of years to finish the most of the construction, then Messiah was to come in 62 weeks. "

Dan, 9:25, Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Here it is the 7 weeks are the 49 years when most of the construction was done, and the three score and two weeks are the 62 weeks until Messiah comes. That was on what we call Palm Sunday, and guess what he was crucified 4 days later according to Passover instruction, on a ------- THURSDAY. 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, until Sunday, not Easter please! but Resurrection Sunday. ;)

 

[archangel_300]

You people really need to try to understand how the beast and false prophet fits into Daniel's time of the end.You would get alot better understanding of the events to take place there.If you cant fit the first and second beasts into this chapter,you have no understanding of the chapter .

What Samuel says seems to fit... although I still have questions before I can confirm it as part of my doctrinal belief. I'd like to how to confirm the time it actually took for Ezra/Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

I don't see the end time anywhere within the 70 weeks of Daniel 9.
HOWEVER, I do see the end times in a lot of other places in the book of Daniel.
The beast and the false prophet do fit perfectly elsewhere just not within the 70 weeks prophecy.

 

[archangel_300]

"It took the Israelites 7x7 or 49 weeks of years to finish the most of the construction, then Messiah was to come in 62 weeks. "

Dan, 9:25, Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Here it is the 7 weeks are the 49 years when most of the construction was done, and the three score and two weeks are the 62 weeks until Messiah comes. That was on what we call Palm Sunday, and guess what he was crucified 4 days later according to Passover instruction, on a ------- THURSDAY. 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, until Sunday, not Easter please! but Resurrection Sunday. ;)

Thanks samuel, I was hoping I could cross reference this with other parts of scripture.
I was hoping to find clues in Ezra/Nehemiah or something like that which would confirm the 70 week prophecy.

 

[samuel]

You should read what Daniel has to say about it then because according to Daniel the king of the north doesnt place the abominastion of desolation.Therefore your interpretation is proven wrong by the scripture itself.The army does.

That is what you are assuming the Bible says. You need to read some of the Jewish historical literature of the time, it helps you understand Daniel a whole bunch. Which Persian king are you referring to, there were three, and two desolations. Then the one referred to as the King of the North. Antiochus Epiphanes who even fried some of the Jewish children in the hand washing laver of the Temple, because they would not bow down and worship him. While the mothers were standing there, and some he cut their arms and legs off first, before frying them. A very cruel man who AntiChrist is a very befitting name for. Of course he is only a shadow, of the one who is to come.

 

[samuel]

Thanks samuel, I was hoping I could cross reference this with other parts of scripture.
I was hoping to find clues in Ezra/Nehemiah or something like that which would confirm the 70 week prophecy.

Actually you will find most of the information outside of the Bible, in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd book of Maccabees. These are in the Apocrypha, the books used to be between the old and new testaments of the KJV, but no longer. I have a small book containing these plus some others I found in a Bible book store, mine is by Cambridge the Bible people you know. The books of Maccabees are not like some of the Apocrypha fictional, they are recorded Jewish history by the Maccabaeeian Priests of the time.

The book of first Maccabees tells us where the Ark of the Covenant is, seems no one has ever looked there. But even then they wont find it because Jeremiah said only when the Lords returns, will he reveal it. Now that one I don't know about, even historical writers go a little overboard sometimes.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You should read what Daniel has to say about it then because according to Daniel the king of the north doesnt place the abominastion of desolation.Therefore your interpretation is proven wrong by the scripture itself.The army does.

That is what you are assuming the Bible says. You need to read some of the Jewish historical literature of the time, it helps you understand Daniel a whole bunch. Which Persian king are you referring to, there were three, and two desolations. Then the one referred to as the King of the North. Antiochus Epiphanes who even fried some of the Jewish children in the hand washing laver of the Temple, because they would not bow down and worship him. While the mothers were standing there, and some he cut their arms and legs off first, before frying them. A very cruel man who AntiChrist is a very befitting name for. Of course he is only a shadow, of the one who is to come.

No Im not asumiong that is what the bible says.Its a fact Jack.The king of the north does not place the abomination of desolation.

I prefer the word of God over the interpretations of blind men who havnt been given eyes to see.The difference between the book of Daniel and the other books you are speaking of is Daniel was chosen to perform a work by the Lord.Daniel is a prophet.The other books you are speaking of such as Maccabees are not the word of God.They are only blind mens interpretations of the word of God.Or do you really believe Jesus gave them eyes to see?LOL ,And do you even know the author of those books?
Now Joesephus was a traitor of his own people and he was not a christian.If he had eyes to see then he would have followed our Lord.Insted he went the other way.The way of an antichrist if you know what that means.

 

[samuel]

The books of Maccabees are not supposed to be part of the Bible, that is why they were removed from the KJV, what they are - are Jewish historical books written by Jewish Priests. They are not even interpretations of scripture, and do not claim to be, again they are simply historical in nature. Now if you say it does not help to understand what is written about in the scriptures, to understand the people it is written about, you are sadly mistaken.

As far as Antiochus Epiphanes and the desolation he commited, Scofield also says he personally placed it, and even entered into the holy of holies. Now maybe both Scofield his eight co-authors, and myself are wrong. Or the King of the North, in the particular instance you are reffering to in Daniel is another. There were three besides Antiochus Epiphanes all were referred to as king of the north, and one of those also commited an abomination of the Temple, all three are spoken of by Daniel.

It is really nothing to make a big fuss over, whether he did it, or the man next door did it, Antiochus Epiphanes was the man in charge, and certainly had to recommend it. As far as that goes, that would make him just as responsible as if he did it himself.

I do not place any other source over the word of God, but I don't seem to be perfect, and sometimes can misquote, or even forget the correctness of some things. That is a privilege I get, for being 70 years old.

And if Archangel_300 drops back by, I really don't know what it is you need to confirm any more about the 70 weeks prophesy. But there is a little in Jeremiah 29:10-14, if you have a reference Bible follow those, there are several other places it is briefly mentioned.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Anytime anyone claims certain prophecies of scripture were forfilled such as Maccabees does,it is interpreting scripture.Such interpretations are very dangerous and can mislead most anyone who is unlearned.

Read Luke 21;21-23 and see how these people who have been taught by those same jewish scholars as you fare.They dont even know to flee ,and why should they ?They believe those scriptures happeneed long before the time of the end.Thier teachers are the same as yours.The exact same jewish scholars you are telling other poeople to believe.No thanks.I'll stick with the word of God.Jesus has already given me a revelation on the subject.
The king of the north=the second beast of Revelation.
Your biggest problem is you cant undserstand how the book of revelation fits in with the book of Daniel.
Maybe someday you might learn how but that day isnt today.

 

[samuel]

They say ignorance is bliss, it surly must be. History does not interpret anything, it simply gives you some facts about things that have happened.

I do not study extra Biblical books, nor do I suggest anyone else do so. I simply like to learn something about the people who lived at that time, and things that took place. There is a difference in reading, and study. One is quickly glanced over and read, the other is seriously absorbed and took to heart.

Sorry for the inconvenience. But I think you have made yourself clear, and that is enough. :bigfrown

 

[veteran]

It's actually very simple to show Daniel 9 is pointing to a 7 year period for the end.

Because the events in the 70 weeks prophecy fit what happened historically covering a period up to 69 weeks, the real debate here is when did the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 occur. That's actually what many are arguing here, and not the point of whether or not that prophecy shows a separate period of 7 years, because it does. That's what the Dan.9:27 "one week" represents per the prophecy, a period of 7 years.

Whether one says that symbolic "one week" happened chronologically right after the other periods given, or that it's still yet to come, does not eliminate the fact that the "one week" represents a period of 7 years.

Thus it is an error to try and say there is no such period given as that 7 years.

That's the first point. Regardless of one's stance on that period, that "one week" which represents a 7 year period per the prophecy, must be accounted for.

Again you have stated that the tribulation period is 7 years and the scripture has not.

From what I gathered from a separate thread we had a discussion on it appeared that just because Daniel 9:27 states "abomination" "desolation" and "end of sacrifice in mid week". That this then gives clear evidence that it is referring to the great tribulation period. (stop me if I'm wrong)

Have you considered alternate interpretations from different vantage points?
What if the sacrifices mentioned here ended are referring to AD 70 when sacrifice and offering ceased? What if the establishment of the abomination of desolation was something that occurred a long time ago and will continue to exist until it becomes manifest for all to see? There could be many different possibilities... I'm looking for a solid biblical ground for which this is based upon and I'm not finding it.

We've discussed on a separate thread where you derive "7 years" from but I'm in complete disagreement with your interpretation of 1260 days. You cannot even prove that the 7 years even is talking about the great tribulation period in the first place. Is there another passage of scripture that clearly defines the great tribulation period as being 7 years or is this it?

Your argument is redundant. I've already shown in my previous posts here how the 7 years from the "one week" of Dan.9:27 is derived, and also it's connection events of the "great tribulation". If you don't want to heed the Scripture as written, and instead heed the false doctrines Preterism, then go to.

 

[veteran]

See how you have taken what you say is proof of a 7 year tribulation in Judea and now claim it takes place all over the world.Thats what I mean by people claiming the scripture is all about themselves.It wasnt good enough for you to read of events that take place only in Judea such as the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination of desolatuion and the persecution of the saints.Now you want to say these events take place all over the world when they dont.They only take place in Judea.

The daily sacrifice will not be taken away here in the US and the abomination of desolation will not be placed here and the saints will not be persecuted here.perhaps you should start believing scripture and stop writing your own .

PS
And speaking of the beast and the false prophet.Well those events take place in Judea also and not anywhere else.You have been reading about those same two in Daniel chapter 11 but since you dont know who they are ,nor do you believe anyone who does know,you will remain without understanding.

Who ever said the events given in Daniel about the placing of the abomination had to ALSO happen outside Jerusalem? I never inferred such an idea when I declared per Scripture that the beast system of Rev.13:1 is to cover nations within a kingdom system like those of Daniel 7. Our Lord's Book of Revelation gives more detail about the Daniel events, but you want to try and corner the prophecy to the Book of Daniel only? That won't work, and I think you know that.

 

[veteran]

You people really need to try to understand how the beast and false prophet fits into Daniel's time of the end.You would get alot better understanding of the events to take place there.If you cant fit the first and second beasts into this chapter,you have no understanding of the chapter .

They're too busy pushing the false doctrines of Preterism to hear what you or I are declaring from God's Word. You and I understand the Book of Daniel abomination of desolation prophecy is for the end just prior to Christ's return, even though we may disagree on who sets it up.

It's the false doctrines of Preterism that tries to say the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans completely fulfilled the events our Lord gave in Matt.24, and the connection He gave to the Book of Daniel about the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate.

It's Preterism that denies that Christ reigns on earth for a thousand years AFTER His coming, even though Rev.20 simply shows He does.

It's Preterism that wants the deceived to think we could already be in Christ's Milennium, if they choose to believe it does in fact exist.

It's Preterism that pushes the lie that Christ's second coming is not a bodily coming, but only a spiritual coming, and that it has ALREADY happened back in 70 A.D.

Those are the false Preterist doctrines Samuel and archangel_300 are showing here.

 

[Vic C.]

Those are the false Preterist doctrines Samuel and archangel_300 are showing here.

Please take this as constructive criticism, Vet. I haven't looked closely into what archangel_300 has posted but I know what Samuel has posted is not preterism at all.

The belief (a belief that I also support) that Daniel's 70th. week is consecutive and that Daniel 9:24-27 is Messianic and not antichrist is not a preterist invention. It is a Reformed position. Most Reformers at the time were amil or historicists, not preterists. Both amil and the historicist person still sees some prophecy as being in the future. They just don't wrap up events into neat little 7 year and 1,000 year packages.

What I suggest people do is study or at least get familiar with other end times beliefs so we don't falsely confuse one belief for another. We also shouldn't be so stiff-necked or dogmatic about our personal end times beliefs. There is not one single end times belief that is 100% correct.

Peace.

 

[samuel]

What I suggest people do is study or at least get familiar with other end times beliefs so we don't falsely confuse one belief for another. We also shouldn't be so stiff-necked or dogmatic about our personal end times beliefs. There is not one single end times belief that is 100% correct.

:amen

 

[Shilohsfoal]

See how you have taken what you say is proof of a 7 year tribulation in Judea and now claim it takes place all over the world.Thats what I mean by people claiming the scripture is all about themselves.It wasnt good enough for you to read of events that take place only in Judea such as the daily sacrifice being taken away and the abomination of desolatuion and the persecution of the saints.Now you want to say these events take place all over the world when they dont.They only take place in Judea.

The daily sacrifice will not be taken away here in the US and the abomination of desolation will not be placed here and the saints will not be persecuted here.perhaps you should start believing scripture and stop writing your own .

PS
And speaking of the beast and the false prophet.Well those events take place in Judea also and not anywhere else.You have been reading about those same two in Daniel chapter 11 but since you dont know who they are ,nor do you believe anyone who does know,you will remain without understanding.

Who ever said the events given in Daniel about the placing of the abomination had to ALSO happen outside Jerusalem? I never inferred such an idea when I declared per Scripture that the beast system of Rev.13:1 is to cover nations within a kingdom system like those of Daniel 7. Our Lord's Book of Revelation gives more detail about the Daniel events, but you want to try and corner the prophecy to the Book of Daniel only? That won't work, and I think you know that.

Vet ,It sounded as though you were trying to say the saints were going to be persecuted all over the world when they dont.

The abomination will not stand in the US
The daily sacrifice will not be taken away in the US
And the persecution of the saints will not take place in the US.
All these take place in the same place.The same place where the beast is.Judea.

 

[archangel_300]

What I suggest people do is study or at least get familiar with other end times beliefs so we don't falsely confuse one belief for another. We also shouldn't be so stiff-necked or dogmatic about our personal end times beliefs. There is not one single end times belief that is 100% correct.

Peace.

Definitely agreed.

 

[veteran]

Those are the false Preterist doctrines Samuel and archangel_300 are showing here.

Please take this as constructive criticism, Vet. I haven't looked closely into what archangel_300 has posted but I know what Samuel has posted is not preterism at all.

The belief (a belief that I also support) that Daniel's 70th. week is consecutive and that Daniel 9:24-27 is Messianic and not antichrist is not a preterist invention. It is a Reformed position. Most Reformers at the time were amil or historicists, not preterists. Both amil and the historicist person still sees some prophecy as being in the future. They just don't wrap up events into neat little 7 year and 1,000 year packages.

What I suggest people do is study or at least get familiar with other end times beliefs so we don't falsely confuse one belief for another. We also shouldn't be so stiff-necked or dogmatic about our personal end times beliefs. There is not one single end times belief that is 100% correct.

Peace.

Historicism, Preterism, many of their positions overlap, for groups in both treat the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel, via Matt.24. I'm aware you hold to some of those positons also, while trying not to be biased against others here like myself that do not.

As far as no one end time position being 100% correct, yes, I know that. But there is only One end time position that is correct in God's Word, and we all should be interested in coming to that one view. Disconnecting the prophecies in Dan.11 and Dan.12 from the 70 weeks prophecy in Dan.9 is not a sign of wanting to do that, but instead a sign of holding to certain seminary doctrinal positions of men.

In my post I showed how the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 continues with the prophecies given in Dan.11 and Dan.12, and how Dan.12 points specifically to the end of this world. I also showed that symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 represents a 7 year period of time per the 70 weeks prophecy.

And I have included the Historicist position within what I explained in my earlier posts also:

"So many today on the Historicist views are being faced with a new challenge of either holding to their traditional view that all the prophetic 70 weeks have been fulfilled, or taking time out to look at the new signs being shown to us today, and since 1948 involving Jerusalem, and reconsider that final "one week" of Dan.9. That is a battle between traditions of men vs. staying on watch to see the later signs being given today."

 

[samuel]

Vic can correct me if I am wrong, but the Messianic view of Daniel 9:27; was held long before our modern days of seminary teaching.

In fact Matthew Henry mentions both the Messianic, and anti-christ views in his comentary to which he held the Messianic view. That was in the 1500's, a little before the reformation. I have forgotten but I could easily find it, which of the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers held the messianic view.

So you see it is not from a modern, or near pre-modern seminary teaching or doctrine, that this view is held. But was probably the basic view, held by most all of the Christians of early Church.

That is - before our modern day seminaries started! teaching the anti-christ view.

 

[KumiOri]

According some a week of years is 7 years, 70 weeks (SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN) is weeks 490 years. Then some intersect a 'great prophetic clock' that has stopped prophetic time. And suddenly when the anti-christ shows up it's seven years left! I realize the clock helps with the arguement but where in scripture is the clock?

How do you explain the time of SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN (70 weeks) in Mathew, how long is this?

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Mathew 18:21:22

Next, read revelation 11 carefully it does NOT describe a Temple being built. It only describes someone taking measurements of what appears to be an already exsisting structure. He didn't say go build a Temple He said Go MEASURE the Temple of God.

There is also similarity in Ezekiel 40 thru 43 and Revelation 11 in the measuring of a Temple. What I am trying to piece together is if the chapters are in order, if so, do they tell of the order of things to come. Also, at the moment, the only Temple I find in scripture being constructed is the one by the Lords hands not of men.

What is the Sanctuary? What is the Holy Place?

The abomination of desolation Daniel 9:27 is NOT an idol. What I believe to be the proper translation ... II for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. Is, ... II and with abominable armies he shall make desolate.. This comes from the translators of the 1611 edition, and if anyone knows Jewish history thats exactly what it will take to make the Holy Place desolate not some barbie doll.

Lots a questions gang.

Read my take on Daniel 10 thru 12 on my first post here at Christian Forums.net 'The Last King of Babylon". Where I propose the period of time between the 7th Persian king and the vile king could be what is referred to in Daniel as the "time of the transgressors" which seems to be alot longer than seven years.

I've sat in the chair for too long being told what the truth is by too many socalled defenders of the faith. If you want to discuss it Im all ears if all you want to do is tell me what is to forget about.