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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Will There Be A 7 Year Tribulation? Probably Not!
- Thread starter rwbovee
- Start date
archangel_300
Member
KumiOri said:
Great post!
I plan to read your post on "Last King of Babylon".
The thing that I'm sensing from the word is that there are symbols and shadows used to illustrate what will occur later. For instance when we take a look at Matthew 24 we see Christ mentioning the "abomination of desolation" which was discussed in Daniel. Some may say hey Christ is referring to AD 70 which *I do believe* the book of Daniel is talking about. But at the same time Matthew 24 is *clearly* referring to the end times when Christ returns. Thus at first glance it appears that Christ is referring to perhaps AD 70 when in fact He was pointing to the symbolic shadow of that which will come during the true end of time.
If that is the case then I suspect the END TIME abomination of desolation is:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
AKA the second beast in Revelation 13:
Revelation 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
After Christ was crucified on the cross I've always considered the "Holy place" as the church. When Christ was crucified the veil of the physical temple was torn down revealing the holy of holies. (Do I have my facts straight about the veil revealing the most holy place?) That should have been a sacred "holy place" no one could look at but now it was open for all to see.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are
GodspromisesRyes
Member
we see it layed out on two 3 1/2 yr periods in rev, which we are shown the order of in the word of God over and over, we see it even in the times of moses, the feasts etc... creation etc.... over and over, i would like to show alot about it but cant get bible browswer to work on this computer so i will have to wait till i get home in a few days to do it
archangel_300
Member
GodspromisesRyes said:
Yeah that's the problem that I have because I don't see the two 3.5 year periods referring to the great tribulation period at all. I see them referring both to the church age up until the time the great tribulation occurs. I see them both as a facet of the same story.
Please prove your viewpoint. Thanks.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
Well archangel i see it your way also!archangel_300 said:
See the thing is we know that history repeats itself over and over, the same patterns and purposes. But that does not mean there is not literal fulfillment of times in fullness not just in part.
For example:we see that both moses and Jesus were shown to be born, be seen momentarily in the word as babies, have satan try to kill them through certian wicked men, and be delivered in egypt. then we dont hear about them against until they are a bit older but before their ministry begins, then we see the full picture of them as adults in their ministry. Now the similarities between just these two are staggaring, and God is setting up a standard and picture of them. We see similar things all through the word of God and then we see similar prophesies like rev 12 for example. Now Just becasue history repeats and always appears similar does not mean that prophesy does not also have timed events.
As far as time goes, we see that in scrptures timing is only used in certian ways. We never see times used meanign " a general long time" when specific numbers are mentioned even though many follow that idea. We are generall shown that 1 day= 1 yr= 1000 yrs. 1 week= 7 yrs etc... and we see these play out over and over again. So when we are given periods of time over and over such as 3 1/2 yrs, 42 months, 1,260 days we see here that these do not just mean " the church age" although the same pattern may play out from Christ to the end, or from creation till the end, there is still a fulfillment of the time given. We know this is true becasue it has proved true already in the OT. We see for example Daniel given very very specific numbers of years, we see numbers of years in deut and other places and we see they always played out on time perfectly. Just because we entered the new covenant does not mean that specific times are no longer true. For example we see literal time, and prophetic time both in revelation. We see twice that there is 3 1/2 yrs, 42 mnths, 1.260 days. But we also see once a mention of 3 1/2 days and that is prophetic time for years. So while I agree, we can look at what has already happened and what till happen and see a partial fulfillment of revelation that does not negat the literal end time fulfillment of them as well. This not only shows us how to rightly interpret by the scriptures, the word of God but it makes the entire bible relevant for every believer in every age no matter how literally close to the end they are or not.
Now when we look at NT prophesy we see it is JUST LIKE OT prophesy. it must be understood in the Spirit not the letter, but just as OT prophesy was, when numbers for times were used it was ALWAYS accurate. Only when times were not used could it be more general of a period of time unknown in the future or in length.
If we are looking at prophesy, and we are not seeing the same patterns from creation, until current, and future then we are not seeing it rightly. God does this because He never changes nor does His ways and purposes.
Now when Jesus prophesied and said that he would tare down this temple and in three days raise it up, he was speakng on a couple of differnt prophetic levels. Firstly and most literaly, that temple was HIS body and He indeed raised it up in three literal days. But He also was speaking of the temple of God, HIS BODY- US that in three days=3,000 yrs He would raise us up as we see in Hosea " after three days".Hsa 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Both are equally true, but if i only believed the second and negated the first because it was the most literal of the time equations i would miss his resurection from the dead. So it is no diff with the end times.
I will be home in three days where i have by broswer fully working and if this is still going on i will come on if the Lord wills and show what i am saying more fully.- but in the mean time, i ask you to meditate on and pray about this, why must it be one way or the other?
samuel said:Vic can correct me if I am wrong, but the Messianic view of Daniel 9:27; was held long before our modern days of seminary teaching.
In fact Matthew Henry mentions both the Messianic, and anti-christ views in his comentary to which he held the Messianic view. That was in the 1500's, a little before the reformation. I have forgotten but I could easily find it, which of the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers held the messianic view.
So you see it is not from a modern, or near pre-modern seminary teaching or doctrine, that this view is held. But was probably the basic view, held by most all of the Christians of early Church.
That is - before our modern day seminaries started! teaching the anti-christ view.
Still irrelevant, because the signs before us today were not available from the time of origin of the Historicist and Preterist views backwards.
Why in the world does it matter if there's a time gap between the fulfillment of the 69 weeks (which have already been fulfilled even according to Historicists), and the last "one week" given in Dan.9:27?
Who made no time gap a determining factor in interpreting the completion of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy? Someone show me where God made that 'no time gap allowed' rule in His written Word?
Who made no time gap a determining factor in interpreting the completion of the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy? Someone show me where God made that 'no time gap allowed' rule in His written Word?
Rainpebble
Member
samuel said:
Hi Samuel, your response is why most ppl are confused as to the importance of "TIMED" prophecies.
IF the final week of the 70 weeks is not included in that TIME period--then the prophecy cannot be TIMED!
70 weeks is a solid block of TIME! We cannot add or detract from it--or else the whole prophecy falls flat on it's TIMED faced. The beauty of God's TIMING in TIMED prophecies is that ALL that He says is going to happen in that BLOCK OF TIME--actually does take place with that TIME.
When man then begins to tamper with the TIME period specified within the prophecy, to force that prophecy to fit into a preconception--then we do a grave disservice to the force of that TIME frame and call God a liar!
Did you notice during Jesus's TIME on earth that He frequently made reference to 'my TIME is not yet come"? Or "The time is fulfilled"? He was referring to the TIMED prophecies concerning Himself and NOTHING could happen until the exact TIME.
So I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the 3.5 years yet to be FULFILLED in that TIMED prophecy. Everything that verse 24 says will happen within that 70 week period DID happen within that 70 week period. Nothing more needs to take place. God's perfect prediction can true.
Will There be a Seven-Year Tribulation?
It depends on whether Tribulation and Daniel’s 70th Week are synonymous. If so, the answer is “yes†insofar as the 70th Week equals a seven-year interval according to the following verses:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (Dan. 9: 26).
And he [the prince that shall come] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Dan. 9: 27).
In the preceding verse, “week†is from the Hebrew shabuwa (Strong 7620) to indicate seven years.[1]
We can confirm this according to the following verse:
Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years (Gen. 29: 27).
In the preceding verse, “week†is also from shabuwa (Strong 7620) to indicate seven years.[2]
Thus, if Tribulation is synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week, then there will be a seven-year Tribulation.
However, although the two terms are commonly employed interchangeably, not everyone agrees. For example, in a controversial 1990 study, Marvin J. Rosenthal scrapped the traditional Tribulation / 70th Week perspective, claiming the alleged correspondence is indefensible, and merits no Biblical justification.[3]
In association with Robert Van Kampen, Rosenthal charted a novel roadmap of the 70th Week and redefined the traditional conception of Tribulation. According to Rosenthal’s and Van Kampen’s “pre–wrath thesis,†Tribulation and the 70th week are not synonymous. Instead, Tribulation defines a limited interval, commencing with the “abomination of desolation†(Mat. 24: 15; Mar. 13: 14), and concluding with our translation (rapture), in advance of the 70th week’s consummation.[4]
Rich Deem offers a brief online commentary of the pre–wrath thesis for review.[5]
I agree with Rosenthal and Van Kampen in essence, but not in detail. My own view of Daniel’s 70th Week timeline is summarized by the attached chart below.
As you can see, I think the Great Tribulation is quite brief (couple months), followed by the Wrath of God. I wrote an ebook about this (among other end time subjects) called The Symmetry Solution. If you’re interested, you can visit my site: http://www.thesymmetrysolution.com. Click the “preview†button to open the sample pdf.
[1] http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/t ... t=KJV&sf=5
[2] http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/t ... t=KJV&sf=5
[3] Rosenthal, Marvin. The Pre–Wrath Rapture of the Church. Thomas Nelson. Nashville. 1990. Page 108.
[4] Ibid. Page 109.
[5] http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/t ... n3aLl3uaIf
[attachment=0:291602uf]1260, 1290, 1335 Days.jpg[/attachment:291602uf]
It depends on whether Tribulation and Daniel’s 70th Week are synonymous. If so, the answer is “yes†insofar as the 70th Week equals a seven-year interval according to the following verses:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (Dan. 9: 26).
And he [the prince that shall come] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (Dan. 9: 27).
In the preceding verse, “week†is from the Hebrew shabuwa (Strong 7620) to indicate seven years.[1]
We can confirm this according to the following verse:
Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years (Gen. 29: 27).
In the preceding verse, “week†is also from shabuwa (Strong 7620) to indicate seven years.[2]
Thus, if Tribulation is synonymous with Daniel’s 70th Week, then there will be a seven-year Tribulation.
However, although the two terms are commonly employed interchangeably, not everyone agrees. For example, in a controversial 1990 study, Marvin J. Rosenthal scrapped the traditional Tribulation / 70th Week perspective, claiming the alleged correspondence is indefensible, and merits no Biblical justification.[3]
In association with Robert Van Kampen, Rosenthal charted a novel roadmap of the 70th Week and redefined the traditional conception of Tribulation. According to Rosenthal’s and Van Kampen’s “pre–wrath thesis,†Tribulation and the 70th week are not synonymous. Instead, Tribulation defines a limited interval, commencing with the “abomination of desolation†(Mat. 24: 15; Mar. 13: 14), and concluding with our translation (rapture), in advance of the 70th week’s consummation.[4]
Rich Deem offers a brief online commentary of the pre–wrath thesis for review.[5]
I agree with Rosenthal and Van Kampen in essence, but not in detail. My own view of Daniel’s 70th Week timeline is summarized by the attached chart below.
As you can see, I think the Great Tribulation is quite brief (couple months), followed by the Wrath of God. I wrote an ebook about this (among other end time subjects) called The Symmetry Solution. If you’re interested, you can visit my site: http://www.thesymmetrysolution.com. Click the “preview†button to open the sample pdf.
[1] http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/t ... t=KJV&sf=5
[2] http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/t ... t=KJV&sf=5
[3] Rosenthal, Marvin. The Pre–Wrath Rapture of the Church. Thomas Nelson. Nashville. 1990. Page 108.
[4] Ibid. Page 109.
[5] http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/t ... n3aLl3uaIf
[attachment=0:291602uf]1260, 1290, 1335 Days.jpg[/attachment:291602uf]
archangel_300
Member
Rainpebble said:
Yeah I agree with what you are saying rainpebble.
The thing is 70 weeks are layed out contiguously, we don't jump from the 69th week when Christ was crucified all the way to many thousands of years later to the great tribulation period. Everything has to be fulfilled in that specific block of time.
David505 said:
I disagree with all prewrath theories, because those theories require rearranging John's God given Chronology. When John went to the trouble of numbering the seals, the trumpets, the vials, and the woes, and then writes of each IN SEQUENCE, why would one even begin to think that John would have whole chapters out of order?
If we follow along with John's chronology, without rearranging, the first five seals are the church age, in agreement with Jesus saying, "the end is not yet." In other words, Jesus is saying, that He is NOT speaking yet of end times events. Studying the 5th seal, we see that the martyrs of the church age must wait until the LAST martyr before they will be avenged. So what would make the last martyr of the church age? Of course the END of the church age, which is the NEXT event John gets to, the 6th seal where the rapture takes place. (The church is seen in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.) The 6th seal is also the fulfillment of the Joel 2 and Isaiah 2 prophecies, showing conclusively that the day of the Lord is imminent, and will start with the NEXT seal, the 7th.
John begins the 70th week AND the day of the Lord, with the 7th seal, marks the exact midpoint with the 7th trumpet, and ends the week with the 7th vial. The trumpets are in the first half of the week, and the vials are in the second half. So John walks us straight through the 70th week, from chapter 7 on through to chapter 16. No rearranging. We find PROOF of the midpoint of the week, in chapter 11, since those living in Judea are fleeing in chapter 12:6. We find FIVE (5) mentions of the last half of the week, given in days, months and times (years.) EACH of these are a STRONG HINT that John is at the midpoint of the week in chapters 11-13. John never even mentions the beast until chapter 13, right when he is revealed AS the beast, when he does the abomination.
The prewrath theory must attempt to force the events of chapters 11-13 inbetween the verses of chapter 6, because that theory states that the great tribulation (which comes AFTER the abomination) is before the 6th seal. This is simply NOT the intent of the author. John does not get to the midpoint and time for the abomination until chapter 11.
Since the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, it should be clear that the first 6 trumpets are in the first 3 1/2 years. Therefore, we DO find a 7 year period of time, called the 70th week of Daniel, or the time of Jacob's trouble.
Coop
GodspromisesRyes
Member
Why would johns chapters be out of order?
Because that is the way ALL prophesy is written. God always repeats the same things in differnt parables and language from differnt aspects over and over and puts events in order, but chapters out of order.
The reason being, God has written the word so that the wise of this world cannot understand it but it can be revealed unto babes. Only because it was given to US to know the mysteries of the kingdom but to them it is not given. The word says God hides a thing but it is the glory of king's to search it out.
Now I agree it would be silly to say something like " there are 7 trumpets but the 6th happens then the 1st then the 7th etc... clearly numbered order is given to specific things. So all 7 seals happen in their order etc.. but that does not mean that the order of chapters is in place or that the trumpets must follow the seals etc.. NOWHERE is prophesy written in order perfectly like that. There are gaps in time, there may be a later event shown in a chapter and directly followed by the event that will happen before that one.
The way we figure out and understand the proper ORDER of chapters and events as they will actually take place is by understanding the Lords examples, parables, etc...
Also we must understand this, John did not say that everything He wrote was in order from beginning to end of events. He shows that He wrote it according to the order HE SAW IT.
There is nothing in the word of God that stops God from showing someone an event in a certian form, then going and showing them that same events in another form, then showing them something that must happen first before those events then showing them what will happen after all that is done. Not only does the word allow for that, but that is what God always does.
Now Jesus gives us in matt etc.. and order of events, but they do not specifically mention by name all the seals trumpets and bowls so we can take his order and compair with the rest of scripture as well as the order of Gods examples in scripture and that is how we find the proper orders.
If we are seeing an end time picture that we do not see shown in the same order in examples elsewhere in the word(not in prophesy by ensamples) then WE have the wrong picture.
Because that is the way ALL prophesy is written. God always repeats the same things in differnt parables and language from differnt aspects over and over and puts events in order, but chapters out of order.
The reason being, God has written the word so that the wise of this world cannot understand it but it can be revealed unto babes. Only because it was given to US to know the mysteries of the kingdom but to them it is not given. The word says God hides a thing but it is the glory of king's to search it out.
Now I agree it would be silly to say something like " there are 7 trumpets but the 6th happens then the 1st then the 7th etc... clearly numbered order is given to specific things. So all 7 seals happen in their order etc.. but that does not mean that the order of chapters is in place or that the trumpets must follow the seals etc.. NOWHERE is prophesy written in order perfectly like that. There are gaps in time, there may be a later event shown in a chapter and directly followed by the event that will happen before that one.
The way we figure out and understand the proper ORDER of chapters and events as they will actually take place is by understanding the Lords examples, parables, etc...
Also we must understand this, John did not say that everything He wrote was in order from beginning to end of events. He shows that He wrote it according to the order HE SAW IT.
There is nothing in the word of God that stops God from showing someone an event in a certian form, then going and showing them that same events in another form, then showing them something that must happen first before those events then showing them what will happen after all that is done. Not only does the word allow for that, but that is what God always does.
Now Jesus gives us in matt etc.. and order of events, but they do not specifically mention by name all the seals trumpets and bowls so we can take his order and compair with the rest of scripture as well as the order of Gods examples in scripture and that is how we find the proper orders.
If we are seeing an end time picture that we do not see shown in the same order in examples elsewhere in the word(not in prophesy by ensamples) then WE have the wrong picture.
archangel_300
Member
veteran said:
It matters because you can misinterpret all sorts of scripture.
I can prove that Christ was crucified on Wednesday not Friday by using time gaps.
I can prove scientists are correct and God did not create the universe within seven days using time gaps.
The rule is when you interpret the scriptures you should stick to what it says. Unless God says "time gaps" you should read the text as it is written. Using time gaps I can prove the great tribulation period is not seven years but fourteen years, no twenty eight years.... etc.
GodspromisesRyes said:
Since John DID number the seals, trumpets, vials and woes, we should ASSUME that the rest is in order also. Not to mention his transitional phrases like, "after these things." A close study then reveals that they ARE IN ORDER! God did not write Revelation to confuse us; it is a revealing. The only thing we need to be careful to watch for, is what today we call parenthesis. A good example is the first five verses of chapter 12. They are not related in time to John's chronology. it was God giving John a brief "History lesson," showing John what the dragon did when Jesus was born.
We can be SURE that no trumpet will be sounded until all seals are broken, and no vial will be poured out until all trumpets are sounded. We can be SURE Jesus does not return on the white horse until AFTER the 70th week have finished with the last vial. We can be sure that the 6th seal is BEFORE the day of the Lord and 70th week, and the 7th trumpet is at the midpoint of the week. The CONTEXT proves these things.
Coop
Shilohsfoal
Member
No they are not in order.The seals trumpets and vials overlap one another.
GodspromisesRyes explained it about as good as anyone could.
GodspromisesRyes explained it about as good as anyone could.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
No we should not " assume". anything.Just because seals are numbered, that means seals are in order, just because trumpets are numbered doesnt mean they have to follow the seals in order, it means they must follow themselves in order.To say that God did not write revelation to confuse us is not completely true. He wrote revealtion to reveal the truth to those who will dilligently seek it. If it was written to clearly and openly show all things in it, it would be written in plain language not veiled parabalic language. He would not use horses. He would not say " a great star fell" He would not say candlesticks.lecoop said:
As far as rev 12 showing history that is completely untrue and shown to be untrue by exactly what it says it is future prophesy not history.
There is far too much assuming happening here and not enough dilligently studying. We see things liek this said
Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and,
Rev 6:1 ¶ And I saw when
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold
Rev 6:4 And there went out another
Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo,
Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard
Rev 10:1 ¶ And I saw another mighty angel
Rev 10:4 And when the seven thunders
Rev 12:1 ¶ And there appeared
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice
Rev 13:3 And I saw
Rev 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast
Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb
Rev 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them,
Rev 14:14 ¶ And I looked, and behold
Rev 14:17 ¶ And another angel came
Rev 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven
Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold
Here are many examples of the things told us- MOST of these are the order that HE SAW THEM, NOT claimed to be the order they will happen in.- While the rest are clearly showing an ORDER. We must take those shown in order in order and not assume that because he saw things in an order that he saw them from beginning to end in order of events. none of the prophets are written like that nor are their visions given like that.
GodspromisesRyes said:
Ah! But you are ASSUMING that they are NOT in order. I am convinced they ARE. Why would they NOT be in order? God writes it as history, as if it is already done. History is usually written in Chronological order. Unless one can PROVE by the very scriptures that they are NOT in order, then the order God showed them, and John wrote them MUST STAND.
Are you saying that Jesus will be yet born again, physically sometime in our future? Rev 12:1-5 was God showing John what the dragon HAD DONE, about 2 to 4 BC when Jesus was born.
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Sorry, but is is a HISTORY LESSON, where God showed John how Satan tried to Kill Jesus as a baby.
I am not saying there are not other hidden and deeper meanings, but this is a most obvious meaning.
Coop
Shilohsfoal said:
If you are going to make a bold statement against logic, then it is up to you to PROVE it.
But, since John DID write things chronologically, you will find that extremely difficult.
People only find a need to rearrange John's chronology because of preconceived glasses and false doctrine. It makes perfect sense in the Order God put it.
Coop