Will We Go To Heaven As Soon As We Die?

[farouk]

The STORY of the rich man and Lazarus,is just that, a STORY, it is one of many Parables that Jesus gave to give a lesson. There are many parables before, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and there are many parables after, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. the Story is right in the middle of all the Parables that Jesus was teaching, the reason for that is, because it also was a parable.:yes

^i^

The very passage mentions the 'great gulf fixed', meaning there is no intermediate state after death.

 

[DiscipleDave]

So those stories were not based in truth? When starting that segment about the rich man he didn't start bh saying "suppose there was a rich man"...he said there WAS a rich man. I'm of the belief that we go to hades which according to that passage is separated into two places. Jesus said Lazarus was carried by the angels there. In the old testament it is said that when a person dies they will be gathered to their ancestors. This passage seems to be an accurate representation of what happens when a person dies.

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Oh let us look at Scriptures at the starting of the Parables that Jesus did give:

Luke10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down to Jerusalem .. ..

Luke12:16 And He spake a parable unto them saying, The ground of a certain rich man ... .. ..

Luke13:6 He spake also this parable: A certain man had a fig tree .. .. ..

Luke14:16 Then said He unto him, A certain man made a great supper ... .. .

Luke15:11 And He said, A certain man had two sons; .. .. .. .. .

Luke16:1 And He said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; .. .. ... .

Luke16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen .. .. ... .

Luke18:1 And He spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 2: saying, There was in a city a judge .. . .. . .

Luke18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray .... .. ..

Luke19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country ... .. .

Luke20:9 Then began He to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, .. . .. .

All these are parables, and even sound like parables, presented like a parable. So why do people take verses that sound like a parable and say it is NOT a parable, but a real event? Many who support the doctrine you immediately go to Heaven or Hell at death, have to use this parable, to back up their own belief. They say it is a real event, a real description of what actually happens, they say this because they NEED it to support their own belief. But it does not matter what i think, nor what you think, nor what they think, the Truth is the Word of God reveals it to be a parable, it sounds like a parable, it is presented like a parable, that's because it is a parable. Scriptures interprets Scriptures. What Scriptures interprets the parable of Lazarus and the rich mean to be a real event?

Notice that most of Jesus parables all start out with " A Certain " this is a key to understanding that HE is about to start a PARABLE.

Hope this has helped in some way.

^i^

 

[Free]

The very passage mentions the 'great gulf fixed', meaning there is no intermediate state after death.

I'm not sure how that would mean that there is no intermediate state after death.

All these are parables, and even sound like parables, presented like a parable. So why do people take verses that sound like a parable and say it is NOT a parable, but a real event? Many who support the doctrine you immediately go to Heaven or Hell at death, have to use this parable, to back up their own belief. They say it is a real event, a real description of what actually happens, they say this because they NEED it to support their own belief. But it does not matter what i think, nor what you think, nor what they think, the Truth is the Word of God reveals it to be a parable, it sounds like a parable, it is presented like a parable, that's because it is a parable. Scriptures interprets Scriptures. What Scriptures interprets the parable of Lazarus and the rich mean to be a real event?

It doesn't really matter whether or not it is a parable. I think icee's point, and one I've made several times before, is that every parable uses situations, places, and items that the listeners would be familiar with. And that is one of the reasons parables are effective. Not once, that I can think of, does Jesus introduce some situation or place, such as Hades and Abraham's Bosom, that his listeners weren't already familiar with.

That is to say, just because this may be a parable does not mean that there is no actual Hades where the just and unjust are separated and kept until judgement.

 

[icee]

Free is correct. This parable is distinct in that Jesus even named the person. Also if you will read what I have said I am not arguing that a person goes immediately to heaven. When we die we go to Hades, either a place of comfort or a place of torment (hell). Neither of those places are the final resting place. Heaven is the final resting place of the saved and the lake of fire is the final resting place for the unsaved.

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[farouk]

I'm not sure how that would mean that there is no intermediate state after death.

Free

In the context, the rich man wanted someone to come back from the dead to tell his family.

But the response was that there was a great gulf fixed; it was already too late; either there is direct entry into the eternal bliss of the faithful or else the other alternative...

 

[elijah23]

No, you will go to heaven as soon as you repent:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

 

[DiscipleDave]

It doesn't really matter whether or not it is a parable.

True, It doesn't matter to those who it does not effect, however if people use this parable to teach a false doctrine that a person immediately goes to Heaven or to Hell at the time of death. and they use this Parable to back up the false doctrine by saying it is a real event. Then it would most certainly matter in trying to prevent the spread of false doctrines would it not?

I think icee's point, and one I've made several times before, is that every parable uses situations, places, and items that the listeners would be familiar with. And that is one of the reasons parables are effective. Not once, that I can think of, does Jesus introduce some situation or place, such as Hades and Abraham's Bosom, that his listeners weren't already familiar with.

That is to say, just because this may be a parable does not mean that there is no actual Hades where the just and unjust are separated and kept until judgement.

That is absolutely True, Hades did exist, but the moment the keys of death were taken away from satan, Hades ceased to exist. satan can no longer bound a soul to Hades, Jesus prevents that from happening now. Jesus after He was crucified went to Hades (where at that time all souls of the dead, righteous and unrighteous were kept) to release the righteous souls, those that confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, were released from Hades. When Jesus released the souls in Hades, and satan could no longer bind souls there, Hades cease to exist. Now when a righteous person dies, they do not go to Hades (storage place of the dead) they sleep in Christ, until He returns, the moment He shows up in our atmosphere is when they will awaken from their sleep and rise to be with Him. If you will hear it, then hear it, if not then so be it.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Free is correct. This parable is distinct in that Jesus even named the person. Also if you will read what I have said I am not arguing that a person goes immediately to heaven. When we die we go to Hades, either a place of comfort or a place of torment (hell). Neither of those places are the final resting place. Heaven is the final resting place of the saved and the lake of fire is the final resting place for the unsaved.

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So what i am hearing you say above is, when a person dies, they go to Hades, either a place of comfort or a place of torment(hell) Tell me, how is it determined if, at the time of death, a person goes to a place of comfort or a place of torment? Are you saying they are judged on that day of death? i mean it would have to be Judgement Day for that person, so as to judge whether that person goes to a place of comfort or a place of torment right?

i (me personally) see a major error in this philosophy, the main one being that it is not Scriptural. Scriptures speak of a Judgement Day that Christ will return and at that time He will separate the good from the wicked, it does not say this has already been done prior to Him doing it. Scriptures also refer to another Judgement Day which scholars refer to as the Great White Throne Judgement, where all the wicked are judged and made to realize why they are not going to Heaven, why they were judged unworthy to attain such a Holy place. But there is absolutely NO Scriptures which speak of a third judgement that is done at the time of a person death, as to determine where they will be placed either in a place of comfort or a place of torment? If Scriptures does not teach this at all, where does this teaching come from or better yet what Scriptures teach this, or even imply this happens?

Those who know the Truth, know when they hear it. i'm really not trying to upset anyone, i am, in love, trying to reveal to you the Truth, by pointing out where there are flaws in thinking, in hopes that you will think "I never thought of it that way before" or maybe if in the least makes a person want to do more research and looking to God and His Word for the answers, so as to not be led astray by the doctrines of men. i am fully aware of how it sounds when i say "God told me these things" and how crazy it makes me look, and even makes people not believe anything i say, but it is the Truth, and what i teach comes from Him, and give Him all the credit, i have not come up with all that i teach based on my own intelligence or my own studies or from my own understanding, what i teach is what HE has told me to teach. i don't know the Truth because of my own power or from my own ability, i know the Truth because He revealed it to me. What i teach is from Him, Those who have Him inside of them, will know the voice of the Shepherd. They will know the Truth when they hear it, because they also hear HIM, and know the Truth when it is said, for all the sheep KNOW HIS voice when they hear it.

OK moving on.:yes

^i^

 

[icee]

So what i am hearing you say above is, when a person dies, they go to Hades, either a place of comfort or a place of torment(hell) Tell me, how is it determined if, at the time of death, a person goes to a place of comfort or a place of torment? Are you saying they are judged on that day of death? i mean it would have to be Judgement Day for that person, so as to judge whether that person goes to a place of comfort or a place of torment right?

i (me personally) see a major error in this philosophy, the main one being that it is not Scriptural. Scriptures speak of a Judgement Day that Christ will return and at that time He will separate the good from the wicked, it does not say this has already been done prior to Him doing it. Scriptures also refer to another Judgement Day which scholars refer to as the Great White Throne Judgement, where all the wicked are judged and made to realize why they are not going to Heaven, why they were judged unworthy to attain such a Holy place. But there is absolutely NO Scriptures which speak of a third judgement that is done at the time of a person death, as to determine where they will be placed either in a place of comfort or a place of torment? If Scriptures does not teach this at all, where does this teaching come from or better yet what Scriptures teach this, or even imply this happens?

Those who know the Truth, know when they hear it. i'm really not trying to upset anyone, i am, in love, trying to reveal to you the Truth, by pointing out where there are flaws in thinking, in hopes that you will think "I never thought of it that way before" or maybe if in the least makes a person want to do more research and looking to God and His Word for the answers, so as to not be led astray by the doctrines of men. i am fully aware of how it sounds when i say "God told me these things" and how crazy it makes me look, and even makes people not believe anything i say, but it is the Truth, and what i teach comes from Him, and give Him all the credit, i have not come up with all that i teach based on my own intelligence or my own studies or from my own understanding, what i teach is what HE has told me to teach. i don't know the Truth because of my own power or from my own ability, i know the Truth because He revealed it to me. What i teach is from Him, Those who have Him inside of them, will know the voice of the Shepherd. They will know the Truth when they hear it, because they also hear HIM, and know the Truth when it is said, for all the sheep KNOW HIS voice when they hear it.

OK moving on.:yes

^i^

A person is already judged when they are unsaved. Condemnation remains on them.

John 3:36 HCSB

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 HCSB

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

1 John 3:14 HCSB

We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.

So to the contrary it is very scriptural.

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[DiscipleDave]

A person is already judged when they are unsaved. Condemnation remains on them.

John 3:36 HCSB

The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:24 HCSB

"I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

1 John 3:14 HCSB

We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.

So to the contrary it is very scriptural.

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these are all references to people while they are alive and living. And i agree with them all, and they all are the Truth, These verses have nothing to do with when a person dies, if they are judged or not at the time of death. i am asking you to show me any Scriptures which teaches they are judged at the time of death where they are going. i do however see your logic in the verses you are using to support your belief, my point though, is just because a person claims to be Saved, a believer in Jesus Christ, they still must be judged thus. Those verses above are for the living. We are Saved by believing in Jesus Christ. Anyone can believe in Jesus Christ does not mean they are automatically going to Heaven because they claim to believe in Jesus, they all will be Judged on Judgement day as it is written, this is when it is determined where they will spend eternity. it is not determined at the time of death.
Here is another thing. If a person is judged as you are suggesting above. then what need is there to have a Judgement Day. my point is if it is automatically given at the time of death where a person is going, based solely on what they believe (the verses you use above) then what need is there for a Judgement Day? Tell me, what does Judgment Day determine? What is Judgement Day about? please answer me those questions if you would be so kind As far as i know the Scriptures teach that Judgement Day is to Judge, who is righteous is not righteous, who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, but if what you say is True, that it is determined at the time of a person death, then what need is there for a Judgement Day, which determines where a person is going, if it has already been determined at the time of that persons death where they are going? There would be no need for a Judgement Day if it is as you say, if you believe your Saved if you don't your not. So why does the Bible speak of a Judgement DAY that will determine where a person will go for eternity?
i think if you were to seriously answer these questions that i present, you would see the error in your thinking, or you can do what most do, not answer them because you don't want to address the questions being asked, that might mean you have to change what you have believed most of your life.
Most who have lost a loved one, are those who, understandably, do not want to accept this Truth, they find it more comfortable to believe their loved ones are in Heaven looking down on them, this helps with their grieving process.

^i^

 

[farouk]

But for those who die in faith, it is a case of 'absent from the body, present with the Lord', as Paul says (2 Corinthians 5.8).

 

[icee]

these are all references to people while they are alive and living. And i agree with them all, and they all are the Truth, These verses have nothing to do with when a person dies, if they are judged or not at the time of death. i am asking you to show me any Scriptures which teaches they are judged at the time of death where they are going. i do however see your logic in the verses you are using to support your belief, my point though, is just because a person claims to be Saved, a believer in Jesus Christ, they still must be judged thus. Those verses above are for the living. We are Saved by believing in Jesus Christ. Anyone can believe in Jesus Christ does not mean they are automatically going to Heaven because they claim to believe in Jesus, they all will be Judged on Judgement day as it is written, this is when it is determined where they will spend eternity. it is not determined at the time of death.
Here is another thing. If a person is judged as you are suggesting above. then what need is there to have a Judgement Day. my point is if it is automatically given at the time of death where a person is going, based solely on what they believe (the verses you use above) then what need is there for a Judgement Day? Tell me, what does Judgment Day determine? What is Judgement Day about? please answer me those questions if you would be so kind As far as i know the Scriptures teach that Judgement Day is to Judge, who is righteous is not righteous, who is going to Heaven and who is not going to Heaven, but if what you say is True, that it is determined at the time of a person death, then what need is there for a Judgement Day, which determines where a person is going, if it has already been determined at the time of that persons death where they are going? There would be no need for a Judgement Day if it is as you say, if you believe your Saved if you don't your not. So why does the Bible speak of a Judgement DAY that will determine where a person will go for eternity?
i think if you were to seriously answer these questions that i present, you would see the error in your thinking, or you can do what most do, not answer them because you don't want to address the questions being asked, that might mean you have to change what you have believed most of your life.
Most who have lost a loved one, are those who, understandably, do not want to accept this Truth, they find it more comfortable to believe their loved ones are in Heaven looking down on them, this helps with their grieving process.

^i^

Once more I will tell you that I'm not arguing that when a person dies they go straight to heaven. If you continue to ignore this and keep bringing it up I am done with this debate with you.

To answer your question...when a person dies unsaved they go to a place of torment. This is NOT the final judgement. The final judgement is the lake of fire where even hell will be cast.

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[DiscipleDave]

Once more I will tell you that I'm not arguing that when a person dies they go straight to heaven. If you continue to ignore this and keep bringing it up I am done with this debate with you.

To answer your question...when a person dies unsaved they go to a place of torment. This is NOT the final judgement. The final judgement is the lake of fire where even hell will be cast.

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i am sorry if i have misunderstood you but do you not teach the doctrine that when you die you either go to a place of comfort, or a place of torment? It is news to me, that you believe the place of comfort is not Heaven, and the place of torment is not Hell, because you have not revealed this to me, nor have you said this in a post. How then am i suppose to know that a place of comfort in not Heaven to you, unless you tell me it is not Heaven to you. and a place of torment is not Hell to you, is this True, that you believe these things?

You see to me, a place of comfort means Heaven, and a place of torment means Hell. Do you see then how it would be very easy for a person to think that is what you were referring to? Simply telling me otherwise would have been nice to know, before saying that if i continue to ignore this you are done debating with me. How can i ignore something that i did not know existed. i had no ideal that you think a place of comfort is NOT Heaven, or that place of torment is NOT Hell, i did not know this, because i was not told this until this very post. And i do apologize for offending you if in some way i have done so

i would like to know however where exactly do you think this place of comfort is, and where do you think this place of torment is, if they are not Heaven and Hell, where are they? And most importantly what Scriptures teach these things? i mean if we do go to a place of comfort that is not Heaven, or do go to a place of torment that is not Hell, i would like to know the Scriptures that teach these things, or is this something that you merely believe to be true?:

Would like to hear from you on this matter, look forward to your response.

^i^

 

[icee]

i am sorry if i have misunderstood you but do you not teach the doctrine that when you die you either go to a place of comfort, or a place of torment? It is news to me, that you believe the place of comfort is not Heaven, and the place of torment is not Hell, because you have not revealed this to me, nor have you said this in a post. How then am i suppose to know that a place of comfort in not Heaven to you, unless you tell me it is not Heaven to you. and a place of torment is not Hell to you, is this True, that you believe these things?

You see to me, a place of comfort means Heaven, and a place of torment means Hell. Do you see then how it would be very easy for a person to think that is what you were referring to? Simply telling me otherwise would have been nice to know, before saying that if i continue to ignore this you are done debating with me. How can i ignore something that i did not know existed. i had no ideal that you think a place of comfort is NOT Heaven, or that place of torment is NOT Hell, i did not know this, because i was not told this until this very post. And i do apologize for offending you if in some way i have done so

i would like to know however where exactly do you think this place of comfort is, and where do you think this place of torment is, if they are not Heaven and Hell, where are they? And most importantly what Scriptures teach these things? i mean if we do go to a place of comfort that is not Heaven, or do go to a place of torment that is not Hell, i would like to know the Scriptures that teach these things, or is this something that you merely believe to be true?:

Would like to hear from you on this matter, look forward to your response.

^i^

I now see what type of person I'm dealing with. I said in a post plainly that the place of comfort was not heaven. But you are so sure of what you are saying that you are obviously just skimming through the replies. I understand why you won't back off your position...you already invoked the name of Jesus in it.

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[DiscipleDave]

I now see what type of person I'm dealing with. I said in a post plainly that the place of comfort was not heaven. But you are so sure of what you are saying that you are obviously just skimming through the replies. I understand why you won't back off your position...you already invoked the name of Jesus in it.

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Let me understand what you are saying, because i failed (once) to read your post that said the place of comfort was not heaven, that i now obviously just skim through replies, and you have judged me and have classified me as a type of person? Friend, have i done you wrong? Have i offended you in some way? i missed reading something in your post, and now i am a type of person, and i obviously just skim through replies. You came up with all this, because i failed to see your post saying something ONCE? Is that the jest of it? Are you this quick to judge other people as well, if they somehow seem to mess up even a little bit?

OK lets get started, if you are going to say these things about me for all to read and believe concerning me. Then surely you can answer me these questions concerning what you have said above.

You say

I now see what type of person I'm dealing with.

please if you would be so kind, tell me what type of person am i that you have to deal with? i don't know exactly what this means, if i should take offence because of it or if it is a compliment of some sort that i am not aware of, please inform my ignorance what type of person i am according to you.

You said

But you are so sure of what you are saying that you are obviously just skimming through the replies.

What do you mean, i am so sure of what i am saying? Also could you please tell me what post you said

place of comfort is not Heaven

, so that i may be able to read it and see if i have did this thing that you are accusing me of. As far as i know, you have not said that in any posts, i could be dead wrong, and could have very well missed it, but you accuse me of doing this thing, i would think you could show me the post where you have indeed said what you say you did. If it's not to much trouble, being that you accuse me of doing this thing, could you show me the post in which i did this thing, thank you in advance. If i have done this, i will try to do better in reading the posts, but as right now, i feel i am pretty thorough in reading the posts that i respond too, so show me where i did not read it correctly, thanks.

You said

I understand why you won't back off your position

You say you understand why i won't back off my position yet do not explain what that understanding is. Please explain how you understand why i won't back off my position.

You said

you already invoked the name of Jesus in it.

i am so ignorant some times, i really don't have a clue what you mean here,:dunno how have i, what you say, invoked, the name of Jesus? What do you mean by that? Sorry, but i really don't know what you are trying to say here, are you saying that because i invoked the name of Jesus is the reason why i won't back off my position, or are you saying because i invoked the name of Jesus is why you understand why i won't back off my position? Also what is invoking the name of Jesus?

Hope you can help me to better understand these questions, so i can understand what you are saying?

love you

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

To Icee,

Greetings, i seen the post it is post #51. and you are correct, i did not read it all. i generally do not read posts that are not addressed to me. Post 51 was not to me, but to another poster. therefore did not read it. The posts that i have responded to you were about what you and i have been discussing not what you and others have been discussing.

i do apologize to you for not having the time to read every single post that is written, i am a member of about 7 message boards (forums) and answer emails as well, i can receive up to 70 emails a day, sometimes none. So i do not read posts that are not addressed to me, i reply to posts that reply to me.

Is that what type of person i am, that you were referring to, one that is so limited on time that they do not read every single post this is written? Because then yes, i am that type of person.

Anyways, i did find the post that you said even as you say you did. But a good thing has come from all of this, now you know that i am that type of person, maybe now you can merely repeat something you said, knowing that i probably did not read it, especially if you are replying to someone else.:yes

^i^

 

[icee]

To Icee,

Greetings, i seen the post it is post #51. and you are correct, i did not read it all. i generally do not read posts that are not addressed to me. Post 51 was not to me, but to another poster. therefore did not read it. The posts that i have responded to you were about what you and i have been discussing not what you and others have been discussing.

i do apologize to you for not having the time to read every single post that is written, i am a member of about 7 message boards (forums) and answer emails as well, i can receive up to 70 emails a day, sometimes none. So i do not read posts that are not addressed to me, i reply to posts that reply to me.

Is that what type of person i am, that you were referring to, one that is so limited on time that they do not read every single post this is written? Because then yes, i am that type of person.

Anyways, i did find the post that you said even as you say you did. But a good thing has come from all of this, now you know that i am that type of person, maybe now you can merely repeat something you said, knowing that i probably did not read it, especially if you are replying to someone else.:yes

^i^

I too am a person with very limited time...owning a business and also currently working part time at another. I also am apart of several forums and also receive several messages a day associated with just the ones I am subscribed to among other things. I also do not have time to read every message of every one I am subscribed to BUT if I join the conversation I make every effort to or these things happen.

That being said...I surely accept your apology and will not bring it up again.

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[Stormcrow]

All Christians that died or were killed prior to Jesus Christ rising from the dead, are these souls that Jesus took with Him at the time of His resurrection.

Strange since there were no Christians until the Holy Spirit was sent by Christ to set His seal upon all who believe in Him. Hence, not a single "Christian" died before He rose.

 

[Free]

It doesn't really matter whether or not it is a parable.

True, It doesn't matter to those who it does not effect, however if people use this parable to teach a false doctrine that a person immediately goes to Heaven or to Hell at the time of death. and they use this Parable to back up the false doctrine by saying it is a real event. Then it would most certainly matter in trying to prevent the spread of false doctrines would it not?

I don't think you understood my point. The point is that if Hades existed and does exist, then regardless of whether or not Jesus Hades in a parable, Hades exists and people go there. A parable does not make the situation and circumstances within the parable untrue.

That is absolutely True, Hades did exist, but the moment the keys of death were taken away from satan, Hades ceased to exist. satan can no longer bound a soul to Hades, Jesus prevents that from happening now. Jesus after He was crucified went to Hades (where at that time all souls of the dead, righteous and unrighteous were kept) to release the righteous souls, those that confessed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, were released from Hades. When Jesus released the souls in Hades, and satan could no longer bind souls there, Hades cease to exist. Now when a righteous person dies, they do not go to Hades (storage place of the dead) they sleep in Christ, until He returns, the moment He shows up in our atmosphere is when they will awaken from their sleep and rise to be with Him. If you will hear it, then hear it, if not then so be it.

There isn't any biblical evidence for most of this.

 

[smaller]

Strange since there were no Christians until the Holy Spirit was sent by Christ to set His seal upon all who believe in Him. Hence, not a single "Christian" died before He rose.

Don't know where you got that idea.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We and they are not involved with a different God.

s