Willfull Sinning

[childeye]

You said one must not sorrowful for leaving sin behind. An adultress must stop being an adultress to leave sin behind. I just don't understand.

I am saying that God forgives even if the adultress continues her adultry every single day. That she can go to Heaven. You seem to want to disagree, but won't come out and say so.

One thing about this adultery. Once adultery is commited it cannot be taken back so that should eliminate the prospect of going back. When I was talking about leaving sin behind and not being sorrowful it would be applied to repeating over and over again the same sin. To be forthright, I was addressing homosexuality. And yes I am uncomfortable with such a topic. Why? because I do not as yet possess the knowledge of the lie that this sin is founded upon. Hence I cannot comment adequately upon it to say one way or the other.

 

[eddy]

One thing about this adultery. Once adultery is commited it cannot be taken back so that should eliminate the prospect of going back. When I was talking about leaving sin behind and not being sorrowful it would be applied to repeating over and over again the same sin. To be forthright, I was addressing homosexuality. And yes I am uncomfortable with such a topic. Why? because I do not as yet possess the knowledge of the lie that this sin is founded upon. Hence I cannot comment adequately upon it to say one way or the other.

Yes repeating over and over again the same sin. When the adulteress or homosexual stay in their relationship they commit the same sin over and over. Knowlege of the lie?

I think I see it this way. Divorce and remarriage is prevelent in the Christian community, but homosexuality is not. In both sins people live in open rebellion committing the same sin over and over. If one group can't be forgiven and go to heaven neither can the other. This challenges peoples predudices and makes them uncomfortible. A gay might make it to heaven GASP. Or Doug has been married for 10 years and he has 2 kids, but it is his second marriage. He is an adulterer and living in rebellion? He is such a nice guy in church no way he's going to burn in Hell. Well yes people it is just that simple. Don't let the ick factor blind you to the simple truths. Either both can go or neither can go.

 

[childeye]

Yes repeating over and over again the same sin. When the adulteress or homosexual stay in their relationship they commit the same sin over and over. Knowlege of the lie?

I think I see it this way. Divorce and remarriage is prevelent in the Christian community, but homosexuality is not. In both sins people live in open rebellion committing the same sin over and over. If one group can't be forgiven and go to heaven neither can the other. This challenges peoples predudices and makes them uncomfortible. A gay might make it to heaven GASP. Or Doug has been married for 10 years and he has 2 kids, but it is his second marriage. He is an adulterer and living in rebellion? He is such a nice guy in church no way he's going to burn in Hell. Well yes people it is just that simple. Don't let the ick factor blind you to the simple truths. Either both can go or neither can go.

All well said not this does not answer the question you asked me. No one knows who goes to heaven. We can say those who are in Jesus, but we don't know who they are.

You are defining sin differently than I do. I'll tell you a story. My Father in law got a divorce and remarried. This was adultery. But the woman had two little grand children who were being sexually approached by their mothers boyfriend. He confronted it and there was a big legal battle and my Father in law was insrumental in securing legal custody and he raised those kids as if they were his own. Was that God? God used the situation to make something good. So I don't say I know whose forgiven or who isn't. When I said adultery cannot be taken back that means you cannot go back and it is pure, for that is what adulterate means.

 

[eddy]

All well said not this does not answer the question you asked me. No one knows who goes to heaven. We can say those who are in Jesus, but we don't know who they are.

You are defining sin differently than I do. I'll tell you a story. My Father in law got a divorce and remarried. This was adultery. But the woman had two little grand children who were being sexually approached by their mothers boyfriend. He confronted it and there was a big legal battle and my Father in law was insrumental in securing legal custody and he raised those kids as if they were his own. Was that God? God used the situation to make something good. So I don't say I know whose forgiven or who isn't. When I said adultery cannot be taken back that means you cannot go back and it is pure, for that is what adulterate means.

So your saying homosexuals can be forgiven too right? God can use homosexuals to bring good in the world. Kind of like a gay couple can who adopts a problem child who no one wants and helps them become a productive member of society and keeps them from becoming a blight.

 

[childeye]

So your saying homosexuals can be forgiven too right? God can use homosexuals to bring good in the world. Kind of like a gay couple can who adopts a problem child who no one wants and helps them become a productive member of society and keeps them from becoming a blight.

God can save anybody He wants to. I am no man's judge but a servant to all. Such is His love.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So your saying homosexuals can be forgiven too right? God can use homosexuals to bring good in the world. Kind of like a gay couple can who adopts a problem child who no one wants and helps them become a productive member of society and keeps them from becoming a blight.

Sin will keep everybody out of Heaven. Be it murder, adultery, lying, homosexuality, stealing. The Bible says that if you offend in one area (choose your own sin) then your guilty of breaking all the laws. Sin is what separates us from God our creator. In order to have a relationship with God, we need to take care of the sin question. Man can do nothing to achieve this. Man is lost in his sins and separated from God.

Mans good works, no matter how good they are, are not good enough. God only excepts, sinless perfection and won't settle for less. God however, by His Grace (unmerited favor) has offered His mercy and forgiveness to ALL sinful men and women. And He did this, through His Son (Jesus Christ) Christ came into this world in the form of a man and died on a cross, and took upon Himself the sins of the world, ALL sins, your sins and mine. In order to receive God's gift of mercy and forgiveness (for our sins) We must come before God (in prayer) and confess that we are a sinner, and that we're sorry for our sins, then we must ask for, The Lord Jesus Christ to be our Lord and Savior put our ENTIRE faith in Him (and not in our own good works) and believe with ALL your heart that He died on the cross for your sins, was buried, and Resurrected. and ask that the Holy Spirit might indwell and seal you. And then you are "Born Again Spiritually" You must be willing to put ALL your faith in The Lord Jesus Christ as being the one who died for your sins. Jesus died for your sins and He paid the price so that you, through His sacrifice on the cross could have the forgiveness and mercy of God and therefore be able to go to Heaven when you die, because of what Jesus did...

 

[Ed the Ned]

Eddy I have been reading your threads and I am just trying to get an understanding of your questions. When you say that homosexual continue living together and performing sexual acts after they become Christian they are still forgiven? I cannot see that they have accepted the Gospel of Christ to begin with. If they had truly understood the gospel they would do everything they could to leave their relationship and follow God word. This includes any sin, adultry, murder etc.
One cannot stand up as a Christian and say it is acceptable to continue after proffessing your faith in Christ. Many may have issues in leaving their sin behind and through prayer and time God will sanctify them. Can we as Christians accept Gay people into Church membership or leadership. NO. Can we accept a person who was gay person who has committed him self to the Lord and admits that homosexuality is a sin and has committed himself to follow Gods word into Church memmership or leadership YES. The same goes with everything else Murder, adultry etc.

 

[stovebolts]

ALL our sin is 'willful'. We do not 'accidentally' fall into sin. We CHOOSE to sin even when we know that it is wrong. This is what Paul was saying, 'The things I don't want to do, I do and the things I wish to do, I do not!' Living a life of sinful rebellion is much different than 'willfully' sinning.

Those who live a life of sinful rebellion are not truly saved to begin with. However, those that are Christians will still choose to sin even when they know they shouldn't.

Some need to stop thinking that they are so holy because they think they accidentally sin instead of choosing to rebel.
"Whoops! Did I just sin there? Oh my goodness. Shame on me!'

I doubt it.

Hello guibox,

I'm sorry, but I disagree that we all willfully sin. When Paul states, "The things I don't want to do, I do and the things I wish to do, I do not!", where does he get his direction from? Is it not the Torah? Furthermore, Paul elsewhere states that without Torah, he would not have known what sin was.

It is possible to sin, while believing one is doing the right thing. It's called lack of understanding, or in your words, "it is an accident". An accident is something you didn't intend to cause. Thus, not all sin is willful. Point in case? Why is hindsight so valuable?

But let me qualify one more time how I am defining willful sinning. Willful sinning within the context of this OP is knowing you shouldn't be doing something, but doing it anyway especially with no fear of repercussion.

 

[stovebolts]

Ok. I have brought this up in other threads, but this one seems the most appropriate.

I have heard it said that homosexuals can't go to heaven because they live in open rebellion. Their continueing to sin prevents them from being saved.

I contend that those committing adultery by getting a divorce and remarrying also live in open rebellion, and continue to sin.

What's the diffence if any between these two sins. They are treated the same in the OT. The punishment was death.

Why should Christians tolerate an adulterous divorcee and not a homosexual?

I think you've got some confusion going into your whole line of thought here.

Please produce the scriptures withing the OT that address Homosexuality.
Then produce the scriptures on Adultery.
Then produce the scriptures on Divorce.

Once you have found the OT verses that address these issues, you should find your misunderstanding.

Within the proper context of Scriptures, we then can begin discussing your post from a scriptural point of view as you will be able to say, "Scriptures plainly says" instead of "I have heard it said".

Bad exegesis produces bad theology with no hermeneutics. Thus, let us put aside our understandings and see what Scripture plainly says.

 

[eddy]

I think you've got some confusion going into your whole line of thought here.

Please produce the scriptures withing the OT that address Homosexuality.
Then produce the scriptures on Adultery.
Then produce the scriptures on Divorce.

Once you have found the OT verses that address these issues, you should find your misunderstanding.

Within the proper context of Scriptures, we then can begin discussing your post from a scriptural point of view as you will be able to say, "Scriptures plainly says" instead of "I have heard it said".

Bad exegesis produces bad theology with no hermeneutics. Thus, let us put aside our understandings and see what Scripture plainly says.

I don't know what hermenuetics or exegisis are. From what I can gather it is finding the hidden meaning in the bible. I don't really believe there are hidden meaning. I think people look for hidden meanings when they don't like the obvious meaning.

Divorce is condemned. If one gets a divorce and takes another "spouse" they commit adultery. Its quite simple. Many "Christians" are guilty of this adultery today so they don't want to hear this simple truth. They prefer to continue living in open adulterous rebellion. Adultery is a grievous sin and the penalty in the OT was death. I think God will neverthess forgive them.

Homosexuality is condemned. It is a grieveous sin. In the OT the punishment was death. They feel they are in love and justified just like the adulerers so they live in open repellion. I nevertheless think God will forgive them.

If they repent they both can go to heaven. Even if they continue to sin.

These are simple concepts and I don't need to speak greek or any other language to understand the bible.

I once had a guy tell me Thou shalt not kill doesn't mean what it says. God actually meat thou shalt not murder. Oh how people need to change the bible to not feel bad.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't know what hermenuetics or exegisis are.

I'll try to explain in simple terms.

Exegesis in it's simplest form starts with a piece of scripture, and looking at that piece of scripture from many different aspects and then deducing an interpretation of said scripture based on those aspects.

Hermeneutics is simply having two pieces of scripture that are in agreement, and don't contradict with each other.

Redaction is simply taking two or more passages and forming an idea.

Theology is an expression of those ideas.

You seem to have some ideas of what the bible teaches. If you want to talk biblical theology. That is, ideas based on the Bible, then we need to start with the scriptures first and foremost and see what the scriptures actually say.

You have asserted what you think the scriptures say based on what you've heard. Don't believe everything you hear. Instead, go to scripture and see what it actually says.

Until you provide said scripture, I think it best you tone down your "ideas" on what you "think" scriptures state. Scripture can speak for itself in many, many areas.

Grace and Peace.

 

[eddy]

If an person on their second or third marriage, who lives in open rebelious adultery can be a church leader so can a homosexual. I simply point out hypocrisy. It hurts peoples feeling sometimes that I can't help. If the adulterer wants to get right with God they will leave and go back to their true marriage. If the adulterer can be forgiven so can the homosexual. I think they can be.

This post in no way promotes or condones homosexuality. What it does is condemns hypocricy.

 

[eddy]

I'll try to explain in simple terms.

Exegesis in it's simplest form starts with a piece of scripture, and looking at that piece of scripture from many different aspects and then deducing an interpretation of said scripture based on those aspects.

Hermeneutics is simply having two pieces of scripture that are in agreement, and don't contradict with each other.

Redaction is simply taking two or more passages and forming an idea.

Theology is an expression of those ideas.

You seem to have some ideas of what the bible teaches. If you want to talk biblical theology. That is, ideas based on the Bible, then we need to start with the scriptures first and foremost and see what the scriptures actually say.

You have asserted what you think the scriptures say based on what you've heard. Don't believe everything you hear. Instead, go to scripture and see what it actually says.

Until you provide said scripture, I think it best you tone down your "ideas" on what you "think" scriptures state. Scripture can speak for itself in many, many areas.

Grace and Peace.

how about this

But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.†(Matthew 5:31)

 

[stovebolts]

If an person on their second or third marriage, who lives in open rebelious adultery can be a church leader so can a homosexual. I simply point out hypocrisy.

In your above scenario, that person would not qualify as a church leader. Thus, your association with a leader being a homosexual is a wrongful conclusion.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

It hurts peoples feeling sometimes that I can't help. If the adulterer wants to get right with God they will leave and go back to their true marriage. If the adulterer can be forgiven so can the homosexual. I think they can be.

Scripture please? I do know that the Torah is very explicit on divorce and re-marriage.

Deut 24 1When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

This post in no way promotes or condones homosexuality. What it does is condemns hypocricy.

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[stovebolts]

how about this

But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.†(Matthew 5:31)

That is a perfect start.

Just prior to Jesus saying this, he said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Many people take this out of context. Jesus is saying, "This is the correct interpretation of Torah". This is why Jesus states many time, "You have heard it said, but I say..."

So what is Jesus talking about? What part of scripture is he properly interpreting? Please see above post. Deut 24.

 

[eddy]

That is a perfect start.

Just prior to Jesus saying this, he said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Many people take this out of context. Jesus is saying, "This is the correct interpretation of Torah". This is why Jesus states many time, "You have heard it said, but I say..."

So what is Jesus talking about? What part of scripture is he properly interpreting? Please see above post. Deut 24.

I think it sould be obvious that Jesus did not come to give us a get out of marriage free card, but just the opposite. Those who divorce and remarry commit adultery. I can see not other interpretation.



I relate adultery to homosexuality to point out the stark hypocricy of poor theology. The status quo seems to be homosexuality is the end all of evil, and that those people are damned while an equally bad sin that requires much of the same desires and commitment and repetition well eh it aint so bad. That viewing sin from selfish convienience. They are equal. If the homosexual is damned for not turning from sin so is the adulterer.

 

[stovebolts]

I think it sould be obvious that Jesus did not come to give us a get out of marriage free card, but just the opposite. Those who divorce and remarry commit adultery. I can see not other interpretation.

how about this

But I say to you, any man who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 5:31)

According to Jesus as you correctly quoted, he interprets Deut 24 as saying that the only cause for divorce is sexual immorality. This does not say that an unfaithful spouse should be automatically divorced, but it does state that there is a condition for divorce.

And I agree, there is no "get out of marriage free card"

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page though, and perhaps we simply articulate the same points differently.

I would even go as far as to say that to the ones your describing, they are already living in a state of hell. Kinda sad IMO

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Eddy I have been reading your threads and I am just trying to get an understanding of your questions. When you say that homosexual continue living together and performing sexual acts after they become Christian they are still forgiven? I cannot see that they have accepted the Gospel of Christ to begin with. If they had truly understood the gospel they would do everything they could to leave their relationship and follow God word. This includes any sin, adultry, murder etc.
One cannot stand up as a Christian and say it is acceptable to continue after proffessing your faith in Christ. Many may have issues in leaving their sin behind and through prayer and time God will sanctify them. Can we as Christians accept Gay people into Church membership or leadership. NO. Can we accept a person who was gay person who has committed him self to the Lord and admits that homosexuality is a sin and has committed himself to follow Gods word into Church memmership or leadership YES. The same goes with everything else Murder, adultry etc.

AMEN!!!

 

[stovebolts]

I relate adultery to homosexuality to point out the stark hypocricy of poor theology. The status quo seems to be homosexuality is the end all of evil, and that those people are damned while an equally bad sin that requires much of the same desires and commitment and repetition well eh it aint so bad. That viewing sin from selfish convienience. They are equal. If the homosexual is damned for not turning from sin so is the adulterer.

Hi Eddy,
I see you've added a bit since my last post.

I agree that there is some hypocrisy between adultery and homosexuality, but I also think that it's a minority view. What I do think though, is that there is a big push from within the Christian community that is challenging the status quo of our nation in regard to the acceptance of homosexuality, same sex marriage and public schools teaching that this is normal behavior. As a result, the issue of homosexuality is making front page and national news, while adultery silently permeates the marriage bed of many households...

History has a way of repeating itself if we don't learn from History. Sadly, the USA is going the same way as Rome 2000 years ago almost to a carbon copy. Please don't misunderstand me, I love the USA and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but as a citizen, I have a right to stand up for what I believe in, but keeping this in mind, so does the adulterer and the homosexual. Sqeekey wheel always gets the oil I suppose... I remember when you could drive down the road with a beer between your legs, now, thanks to MADD, if you have one beer an hour before you drive, it's considered drunk driving...

If the homosexual is damned for not turning from sin so is the adulterer.

You'll find no argument from me. I'd even add the liars, thieves and cheats.

Does the above statement of mine cause me to feel better than the ones spoken about? Absolutely not, because I was among them at a time in my life and since I've left that lifestyle, my world has become a much better place. A place that I wish the liar, thief, cheat, homosexual and adulterer could experience. You see, when you have something great, you want to share it with others so they can experience the same joy. But sadly, what we often see are people defending their little piece of turf and condemning anyone who opposes them.

Even David, when he was fleeing Jerusalem from his own son allowed Shemia to throw rocks at him and curse him, but we see how Shemia later took that grace to his own destruction in the time of Solomon. Sin always has a way of destruction, and often, it's self destruction. David didn't need to condemn Shemei, he knew Shemia would destroy himself.

Grace and Peace.

 

[smaller]

Our political scene has a few religious nuts creeping in.

US governing law is based on 'ethic code.' Not religious determinations.

That code is void of religion, and I thank God for that! I certainly don't want some religious slanted goofball tampering with our court and right system. There is a reason for division of church and state. I strongly hope it stays in place.

Believers who want to outlaw the rights of homosexual sinners would be well advised to rid yourselves of your own sin, but of course that is not going to happen.

In the meantime the homosexual sinner and the religious zealot sinner should be afforded the same 'ethical' treatment in the system.

I also happen to know and to also love people who are gays and lesbians.

I also don't agree with any sin, period, first and foremost my own.

Some believers are smart enough to know we all have sin. Throwing rocks at other sinners in the name of God is an unwise directive. Trying to legislate sin away is not going to work.

I hope these various forms of so called christian anti-homosexual zealotry get a good dose of the first Divine Hand in personal judgments applied to themselves and their SINS before they come riding on their pure white horses to my political door, because it will be slammed shut in their faces when they do.

s