Sinthesis
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Soylent Green?:verysick:D
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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Soylent Green?:verysick:D
Nathan
Member
- Sep 1, 2010
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Hey, just because this thread got moved does not mean it needs to become a bashing one.
We ALL, everyone of us, would do good to heed the words of Romans 14. And Romans 2? It is one thing to expose something, its quite another to condemn it.
Personally, I think there is great wisdom in eating according to the Levitical diet. There is profound, and undeniable benefits to eating only those foods that are spoken of as 'clean'. So I personally think that it is a wonderful idea to eat that diet. Personally, I could be a vegetarian. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with eating that diet.
So someone would say; "well then, if thats what you believe, why do you not eat like that?". Or another might say; "well then, if there is undeniable benefit to eating like that, and seeing how your body is the temple of the Living God, then why not always eat like that?".
Both are very, very good questions. But the simple matter of the fact is that I am not going to bock at what God gives me to eat physically. If someone sits a plate of meat in front of me, I am going to eat it without asking. But if that person says they offered it to an idol, then I will refuse to eat it. Why? Because even though I know that an idol is nothing more than that piece of meat I am about to consume, its the idea behind it. And for the sake of the person that is offering it to me I will not eat it.
So if Elijah wants to eat according to the dietary standards set up in the OT, I nor anyone else has any right condemning him. In fact, I say he is a wise man for doing so. But if he, and it seemed he had, makes it a issue of faith or faithlessness for anyone else but himself, then I have to personally draw the line.
What I am asking is that this SDA and RCC stuff be cut out. I can personally attest to the fact that he does not hold to those people's belief's as they are commonly known. He is an individual, like the rest of us, who has a faith independent from denominational ties. Am I 'sticking up for him'? No. He is quite capable of taking care of his own self. What I am doing is stating that while I do not agree with him if he makes it an issue of 'obedience/disobedience', that does not mean that it is not a wise idea to do anyways. And we are guilty of the same thing we are condemning him of if we go beyond what is taught in the Bible.
We ALL, everyone of us, would do good to heed the words of Romans 14. And Romans 2? It is one thing to expose something, its quite another to condemn it.
Personally, I think there is great wisdom in eating according to the Levitical diet. There is profound, and undeniable benefits to eating only those foods that are spoken of as 'clean'. So I personally think that it is a wonderful idea to eat that diet. Personally, I could be a vegetarian. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with eating that diet.
So someone would say; "well then, if thats what you believe, why do you not eat like that?". Or another might say; "well then, if there is undeniable benefit to eating like that, and seeing how your body is the temple of the Living God, then why not always eat like that?".
Both are very, very good questions. But the simple matter of the fact is that I am not going to bock at what God gives me to eat physically. If someone sits a plate of meat in front of me, I am going to eat it without asking. But if that person says they offered it to an idol, then I will refuse to eat it. Why? Because even though I know that an idol is nothing more than that piece of meat I am about to consume, its the idea behind it. And for the sake of the person that is offering it to me I will not eat it.
So if Elijah wants to eat according to the dietary standards set up in the OT, I nor anyone else has any right condemning him. In fact, I say he is a wise man for doing so. But if he, and it seemed he had, makes it a issue of faith or faithlessness for anyone else but himself, then I have to personally draw the line.
What I am asking is that this SDA and RCC stuff be cut out. I can personally attest to the fact that he does not hold to those people's belief's as they are commonly known. He is an individual, like the rest of us, who has a faith independent from denominational ties. Am I 'sticking up for him'? No. He is quite capable of taking care of his own self. What I am doing is stating that while I do not agree with him if he makes it an issue of 'obedience/disobedience', that does not mean that it is not a wise idea to do anyways. And we are guilty of the same thing we are condemning him of if we go beyond what is taught in the Bible.
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Elijah674
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- Thread starter
- #23
Rom.14
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
OK: What is Inspiration saying? That this is surely the milk fed one of Heb. 5 who is bent on thinking that they are working their way to heaven this is the weak ones. They do not understand yet that there is much more to serving Christ to be saved. 'Born Again FIRST Love has got to be the MOTIVE' that everything is done to be saved. (see Rev. 3:16 even for these meat fed ones!) If ye LOVE ME CHRIST said, [KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]. Obedience has got to be a LOVING RECREATED FIRST STEP MOTIVE!
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
And the above? Paul has not the least bit of Worship in these verses! In other words he instructs on Gal. 1:6-9 + Gal. 3:19's added law from Moses pen. Even note Chapter 4:9-11, and even brings it about more clearly in Eph.2..
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Nor does ORDINANCES have anything to do with the First Table of the Eternal Covenant of WORSHIP OF GOD in them! No, Paul was having continuing problems with the ones doing these things to 'EARN SALVATION'! And the devil has one go from one extreme to the other, huh? All Law to NO Law, and what is New? Eccl. 3:15
(but on with Rom. 14)
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Just a side note here. Even this is miss/construed by most it seems. At least the milk/fed ones? For one not to want their son or daughter, mom or dad or anyone to stay around in life to have a chance to have eternal life, or even to go out (die) before their time by a foolish diet or lifestyle is not showing Love for Christ or these ones! And think that if we go out even by ten years to soon, just perhaps a couple might have been saved by what our neglect accomplished that otherwise would not have.
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
part one.. Part two will follow)
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
OK: What is Inspiration saying? That this is surely the milk fed one of Heb. 5 who is bent on thinking that they are working their way to heaven this is the weak ones. They do not understand yet that there is much more to serving Christ to be saved. 'Born Again FIRST Love has got to be the MOTIVE' that everything is done to be saved. (see Rev. 3:16 even for these meat fed ones!) If ye LOVE ME CHRIST said, [KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]. Obedience has got to be a LOVING RECREATED FIRST STEP MOTIVE!
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
And the above? Paul has not the least bit of Worship in these verses! In other words he instructs on Gal. 1:6-9 + Gal. 3:19's added law from Moses pen. Even note Chapter 4:9-11, and even brings it about more clearly in Eph.2..
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Nor does ORDINANCES have anything to do with the First Table of the Eternal Covenant of WORSHIP OF GOD in them! No, Paul was having continuing problems with the ones doing these things to 'EARN SALVATION'! And the devil has one go from one extreme to the other, huh? All Law to NO Law, and what is New? Eccl. 3:15
(but on with Rom. 14)
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Just a side note here. Even this is miss/construed by most it seems. At least the milk/fed ones? For one not to want their son or daughter, mom or dad or anyone to stay around in life to have a chance to have eternal life, or even to go out (die) before their time by a foolish diet or lifestyle is not showing Love for Christ or these ones! And think that if we go out even by ten years to soon, just perhaps a couple might have been saved by what our neglect accomplished that otherwise would not have.
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
part one.. Part two will follow)
E
Elijah674
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- Thread starter
- #24
Part two:
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
And again if you do not know what this is saying you best re/study how a person is brought into the Virgin Truth! Matt. 18:17-18 is a JUDGEMENT of Life or Death Judgement! And Paul talks out of both sides of his mouth?? Hardly! See 1 Cor. 5:3-5 or 1 Tim. 1:20. NO, again open rebellious sin is to be dealt with.
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Again: Are you teaching that Paul has documented that 'there is nothing unclean of itself' with out knowing what you are talking about? That is like the law of liberty, works save NO ONE, yet the SAVED LOVINGLY OBEY the law... and yes again, the MOTIVE IS LOVE FOR THEIR MASTER! And unclean?? How can anyone know what is unclean except by being led of the Holy Ghost? Rom. 8:14 (unless it smells badly!)
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. [All things indeed are pure;] but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, [which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.]
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
First off, some are not in the faith! Eph. 4:5 And Acts 5:32's! OBEDIENCE finds just a REMNANT that speak Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16-17 Truth. And they do not [command] to abstain to abstain from meats or forbid to marry!
But yes, as God does in making the difference of Clean & Unclean, so they also teach. And surely these Remnant use the Holy Spirits Inspiration of Isaiah 66:15-17 teaching the WARNING of who it is that will not be in Heaven.
[6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
[8] For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
And again, this has nothing to much do with WORSHIPING GOD! It is all the second table of the ten & our duty to mankind. Like Paul's Rom. 13's chapter!
Or 1Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and [bring it into subjection:] least that by any means, [when I have preached to others], [I myself become a castaway.' Yet Inspiration tells us a sure way to be a castaway!
--Elijah
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
And again if you do not know what this is saying you best re/study how a person is brought into the Virgin Truth! Matt. 18:17-18 is a JUDGEMENT of Life or Death Judgement! And Paul talks out of both sides of his mouth?? Hardly! See 1 Cor. 5:3-5 or 1 Tim. 1:20. NO, again open rebellious sin is to be dealt with.
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Again: Are you teaching that Paul has documented that 'there is nothing unclean of itself' with out knowing what you are talking about? That is like the law of liberty, works save NO ONE, yet the SAVED LOVINGLY OBEY the law... and yes again, the MOTIVE IS LOVE FOR THEIR MASTER! And unclean?? How can anyone know what is unclean except by being led of the Holy Ghost? Rom. 8:14 (unless it smells badly!)
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. [All things indeed are pure;] but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
1Tim.4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, [which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.]
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
First off, some are not in the faith! Eph. 4:5 And Acts 5:32's! OBEDIENCE finds just a REMNANT that speak Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16-17 Truth. And they do not [command] to abstain to abstain from meats or forbid to marry!
But yes, as God does in making the difference of Clean & Unclean, so they also teach. And surely these Remnant use the Holy Spirits Inspiration of Isaiah 66:15-17 teaching the WARNING of who it is that will not be in Heaven.
[6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
[7] But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
[8] For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
And again, this has nothing to much do with WORSHIPING GOD! It is all the second table of the ten & our duty to mankind. Like Paul's Rom. 13's chapter!
Or 1Cor. 9:27 But I keep under my body, and [bring it into subjection:] least that by any means, [when I have preached to others], [I myself become a castaway.' Yet Inspiration tells us a sure way to be a castaway!
--Elijah
Nathan
Member
- Sep 1, 2010
- 5,084
- 565
I am not teaching anything, I am simply stating the obvious. Paul knew AND was persuaded. That means that there were two 'trains' of thought working when he wrote this. One, a common reasoning which all man can do. Two, a spiritual understanding that only the born again ones can understand.
People can "know" what is unclean, for the simple fact that nothing is unclean in and of itself. Period. There is no wiggle room for this. It can be debated all day long, but in and of itself an animal is not unclean.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Ecc 3:15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.
Gen 1:20 And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds [fn] fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."
Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
Gen 1:23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man [fn] in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
If we were to go by your thought process that because of what Ecc 3:14-15 says, we should 'abide' by Levitical law, then according to that train of thought all man should be vegetarians. God never said in the beginning that man could eat meat. Instead, He said specifically that man was to eat herbs and plants of different kinds. But not meat.
And yet we know that man does eat meat, and somewhere along the way God deemed things clean and unclean. So what is to say that He has not declared once more that all things are clean? You taking Ecc 3:14-15 and applying it to only a few things does not make any sense. If that is the case, then all must continue to be circumcised. All must continue to offer sacrifices. All must continue to do things all according to the first mention of them in Scripture. We cannot come to the written words of God and pick at it buffet style.
We know that God never changes, but our understanding of His plan does. If Paul can clearly conclude that all food is clean in and of itself, so can I. I believe what He has wrote concerning the Gospel, so I will believe what he writes about this.
Our outer shell is wasting away. I know that my days were numbered before I was created. It might sound a lot like Calvinism, but believe me I am far from that line of false beliefs. What I can say is that God has an eternal plan, and what I eat is not going to effect it. However, He has set us in this place with a choice of two things; love Him or deny Him. That, and that alone, is what defiles a man. Not the outward stuff.
Smaller is right on this subject. One hour of 'spiritual intake of unclean spiritual food' has more defilement than every single unclean animal physically in this world. The picture that God was painting with the 'clean and unclean' is the picture of spiritual dietary intake. God confined them/us under the 'law' in order that they/we might see the need for a true new birth into a spiritual being. That spiritual being is not connected with the physical anymore. The physical can 'influence' the spiritual, but cannot in and of itself defile it.
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Elijah674
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- Thread starter
- #27
God has 'Documented' [ALL FOODS] that are both clean & unclean in Lev. 11. He also tel's two more Eternal facts about the Godhead in Mal. 3:6. 'For I am the Lord, I change not..' & N.T. of Heb. 13:8 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever.' and verse 9 'Be not CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES.' And 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us that ALL SCRIPTURE is needed to have [PROFITABLE DOCTRINE] + [REPROOF] + CORRECTION].
A Case in point is Christ being tempted of the devil in Matt. 4, and quoting SCRIPTURE to Christ the Word Himself. And the Lord went back into what is called the O.T. for [ALL] CONDITIONAL PROMISES to be claimed.
Some falsely claim that Lev. is Jewish, but how is their created makeup any different than mine?
One more scripture that has been posted by another poster is warning us of 1 Tim. 4:1-4 teachings against this very subject. But ask yourself does the swine truth change God just because one does not 'understand' it? No, it is the same truth as seen in Isa. 66:15-17 for who will be CONSUMED TOGETHER. (both the eater & the swine)
--Elijah
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
Well, I'm glad that some see the spiritual value of the Old Testament 'correlation' setups. The text is very 'rich' and 'right' in this direction and ALL of Gods Words taken in Spiritually have value beyond measure.
That is in part why I said to Elijah, that it is not so much the physicality of the pork not being ingested, but the result of what happens in the mind and heart when self justifications of ANY kind are heaped upon ones SELF coupled with ETERNAL CONDEMNATION to another person.
There a HUGE PORK MEAL of the lowest order has been INJECTED into the mind and heart. That is the essence of DARKNESS and EVIL.
I do not seek to be 'bound' by such workings. They are anti-spiritual powers in origination and nature and that working TRAPS people, and they don't even know it. It produces HYPOCRITES, which same of course Jesus hated.
enjoy!
smaller
Nathan
Member
- Sep 1, 2010
- 5,084
- 565
Then if you are still intent on decreeing that our Master cannot expound upon His decreed plan, and are set in your thoughts that because of a few verses that make it seem that God does not change at all, not even His greater plan. Then why is it ok to eat meat of any kind? Did He 'change' from the decree that only plants and herbs should be digested?
And what about circumcision? Did He not decree that the man who does not receive the 'mark' should be cut off? How then is it that He 'changed' from that?
And what about sacrifices? Did not Cain and Able sacrifice animals before the flood, and afterward did not Noah sacrifice animals? Did God 'change' from that?
What you are trying to do is convince people that because He does not change eternally, then He does not change in the way He deals with man. But we know, and are convinced, that while He does not change, we no longer are in need of sacrificing animals. And we no longer circumsise our selves to fulfill the law. And we eat meat, because God gave us all animals for food.
But we know that these things were a shadow, a view of what was to come, the fulfillment being Christ. And in Him there is nothing unclean, all spiritual food that comes from Him is clean and good to eat, but the food that does not come from Him, the fruit of unrighteousness, is unclean and should not be eaten.
But you intend to put a yoke on people that no one in the history of mankind could fulfill, and thereby causing them to stumble along the way. You are not making a direct statement and conclusion to what Paul states clearly, but rather are using the FACT that God does not change to indicate that in this aspect He still requires the eating of only clean meats.
Either God requires it, or He does not. It may be a 'good idea', which I agree with, but if He does not require it, then it is not disobedience to do so. However if He requires it, then it is direct disobedience to eat unclean foods, and we know that according to 1John a man or woman cannot continually disobey(sin) and be a born again believer.
So either you are saying that the eating of unclean foods are in direct opposition to God, and cannot be done by believers, or you are saying that it is not in opposition to eat unclean foods, but it is something else.
Which is it? Is it a sin to eat anything considered unclean? Is it in direct opposition to God to eat anything that was considered unclean by Levitical law?
E
Elijah674
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PS: If your postings can just stay with Gods Word, let me know? 2 Cor. 4:2 is the way of jesuits as 'i' see it., attack attack attack! Which is it you ask me??
Whatever kid'O!?
--Elijah
Nathan
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2Cr 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.
2Cr 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2Cr 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Cr 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
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Break. What is this 'ministry of death'? Carved on 'stone'? Which the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of?
Exd 34:27-30 And the LORD said to Moses, "Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand as he came down from the mountain, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God. Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
Are we to suppose that the 'law of Moses' was written on the "stone", and was the reason why his face shown? Was the 'law of Moses' called the "Ten Commandments"?
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2Cr 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
2Cr 3:9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
2Cr 3:10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.
2Cr 3:11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
2Cr 3:12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,
2Cr 3:13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Cr 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
2Cr 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Cr 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
I do not know what you meant by "jesuits", and I am sorry you see it as an attack. They were meant as very sincere questions. I look to you as one who has been walking on this earth a great deal longer than me and therefore must have more wisdom. But you view me as one who is a fool???
Yes. Which is it? Is it a sin, or is it not? For if it is a sin, then it is disobedience, but if it is not a sin, then it is not disobedience. If it is disobedience, then those who are followers of Christ MUST abstain from it. If it is not disobedience, then each one 'eats to the Lord' and from the Lord he receives his commendation.
You speak of it as sin and disobedience. If that is a false statement, then please clarify. That is why I ask, "Which is it?".
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Nathan
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Perhaps. Perhaps I do understand that already. Perhaps if we look up "clean" and "unclean" in the same concordance we 'might' understand that they are meant 'spiritually'?? (unbelievers)
2Cr 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Cr 6:15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
2Cr 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cr 6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,
2Cr 6:18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty."
Isa 6:5 And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
Did God list "lips" as 'unclean'?
Isa 35:8 And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
Isa 35:9 No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there.
Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away
Is he speaking of 'unclean' animals here?
Rev 16:13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.
Rev 16:14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
Is this not another reference to "unclean" animal (frog) being used as a resemblance of the true thing, an unclean spirit?
Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
And yet another? A reference to "unclean" animals used for a spiritual understanding of evil spirits, not true physical animals?
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Here again, the "unclean" is not a reference to a physical animal, but rather the spiritual person.
Just like 'you' say circumcision is 'spiritual' in fulfillment, so is clean and unclean things. They are a spiritual truth reveled in a physical application. But now that in Christ the veil is taken away and we see the spiritual. Just as Elisha prayed and the spiritual eyes of the servant were opened, so to we have a faithful High Priest that opens our eyes to see the spiritual among the physical.
S
Strangelove
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Nate...you're doing a materful job on this thread.
I don't think you're gonna get any change out of Elijah...but..just remember there will be many people reading through this topic and all the common sense seems to be coming from your good self.
Bless you Sir.
Doc.
I don't think you're gonna get any change out of Elijah...but..just remember there will be many people reading through this topic and all the common sense seems to be coming from your good self.
Bless you Sir.
Doc.
E
Elijah674
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Nate, 'i' agree with this above post. My question is, which are you helping? Is it Christ or satan?? Remember that once the striving on ones conscience of Gen. 6:3 came about, it was at each rejection that it was made [easier to do so!]
Psalms 19:13
--Elijah
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Elijah674
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OK: Elijah here: I have been on this site for many years (on/off/on) I have been a Born Again Christian for well past perhaps most of you'ins age. So what has been stated about 'Clean & Unclean' having an dual [SPIRITUAL] Meaning surely should not be UNKOWN by me! 
I have posted up Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 + Gen. 41:32 so many times that 'i' am wondering about ones sincerity?
Now with that being said, if one is a sincere Christian it surely is their moral obligation to find where 'i' had ever in my long life EVER EVEN HINTED that most Bible Truths do not have a SECOND APPLICATION???
OK: One more 'SPIRITUAL' application!
1Cor.10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same [[[[spiritual meat;]]]] (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's Truth!!!)
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our [[[examples,]]] to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us [[[tempt]]] Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now [[[all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.]]]
--Elijah
I have posted up Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15 + Gen. 41:32 so many times that 'i' am wondering about ones sincerity?Now with that being said, if one is a sincere Christian it surely is their moral obligation to find where 'i' had ever in my long life EVER EVEN HINTED that most Bible Truths do not have a SECOND APPLICATION???
OK: One more 'SPIRITUAL' application!
1Cor.10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same [[[[spiritual meat;]]]] (Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16's Truth!!!)
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our [[[examples,]]] to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us [[[tempt]]] Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now [[[all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.]]]
--Elijah
smaller
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It's not complicated Elijah.
Are believers who eat pork SINNING and if so, UNREPENTANTLY and if so, are they also CONDEMNED SINNERS under the threat of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION???
{I know your groups determinations so there is no use HIDING the matter}
I ask so I can SEE the PRODUCE of your OBEDIENCE to THE LAW and what it MAY have PRODUCED in YOU to your believing neighbors who do not 'do like YOU do.'
And by all means DON'T be shy or coy about SPEAKING YOUR TRUTH.
There is no need for COVER UPS is there?
I would ask the IDENTICAL question regarding believers who worship on SUNDAY rather than SATURDAY, the SAME line of reasonings.
Bring it out into the open and DO NOT MASK or HIDE.
enjoy!
smaller
Are believers who eat pork SINNING and if so, UNREPENTANTLY and if so, are they also CONDEMNED SINNERS under the threat of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION???
{I know your groups determinations so there is no use HIDING the matter}
I ask so I can SEE the PRODUCE of your OBEDIENCE to THE LAW and what it MAY have PRODUCED in YOU to your believing neighbors who do not 'do like YOU do.'
And by all means DON'T be shy or coy about SPEAKING YOUR TRUTH.
There is no need for COVER UPS is there?
I would ask the IDENTICAL question regarding believers who worship on SUNDAY rather than SATURDAY, the SAME line of reasonings.
Bring it out into the open and DO NOT MASK or HIDE.
enjoy!
smaller
E
Elijah674
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There has been many who will be saved that did not have the increased knowledge promised us in these last days, but that is not us of Dan. 12:4 or Hosea 4:6! Even consider the Rom. 2:14-15 ones who never even heard of Christ except through His NATURE!
Yet surely when Christ comes again all of these still alive ones below will be LOST sinners + they will not be saved according to [GOD'S Word].
Notice how they kick, reject, and do & say anything to get away from the simply Words of... 'IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS' (and no one elses word matters!)
Isa 66
[13] As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
[14] And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.(and who are identified?)
[15] For, behold, the LORD will [[[come]]] with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, [[shall be consumed together]], saith the LORD.
[18] For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
And it is not hard to read these documeted ones thoughts that are as open as sunlight even being posted day by day right here, huh? But that is not all, for Inspiration has it again in verse 22-23 where this is talking of!
'For in the New Heavens and the NEW EARTH, which I will make ... And [IT SHALL COME TO PASS], that from one new moon to another, and
[from one Sabbath to another,]
[SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME SAYETH THE LORD].'
--Elijah
smaller
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Yeah, ask a straightforward question and get the perpetual redux.
WILL BELIEVERS who eat PORK and attend SUNDAY church be doomed to [possible] eternal death?
Yes or no?
s
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Elijah674
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The Time/Frame! And which are the unclean & clean seen here also?
2Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity [doth already work:] only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(and what is it that executed the above post ones! Of Isa. 66:15-17! But note the next verse of the ones who are teaching falsehoods!)
[9] Even him, whose coming is [[after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders]],
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(me, or you or anyone else!)
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
--Elijah
2Thes.2
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity [doth already work:] only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(and what is it that executed the above post ones! Of Isa. 66:15-17! But note the next verse of the ones who are teaching falsehoods!)
[9] Even him, whose coming is [[after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders]],
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(me, or you or anyone else!)
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
--Elijah