Wine vs. Grape juice

[JM]

...

 

[evanman]

Both are biblical, as wine is made from grape juice!

Your question needs clarifying a bit more.

 

[JM]

Both are biblical, as wine is made from grape juice!

Your question needs clarifying a bit more.

Does it really? I thought everyone knew one had alcohol and the other was non alcoholic....

OK, here it is: Should non alcoholic grape juice be used for Holy Communion or wine?

 

[jcorley]

I wish the threadster. (person who started the thread {see urbandictionary.com}) would add an "either one" option, as this is where I would vote.

According to Romans 14 Paul details the differences in preferences between believers. I think it would be good to give the church members a choice in communion, etc. depending on the individual's conscience before God.

Now, mind you, this 'goes' for wine/grape juice in communion not 'Everything', such as things which are specifically stated. Additionally those of us who do drink wine are not to do so with great liberty and offend other Christians, but show deference.

So, I say either way (wine or grape juice) depending on the situation, yet there is no place for that in the voting choices.

Preferences, such as things in music, drinking etc. are not of great importance in the Christian walk. The kingdom of God isn't eating and drinking, it's about your heart attitude and daily walk with Christ. You are the most important person in your spiritual walk.

 

[JM]

I believe Romans 14 is dealing with food laws, example: eating pork. If we deal with communion passages and these passages only, what do you believe is more Biblical. Wine or grape juice?

 

[evanman]

The drink that Jesus and His Apostles drank at the passover was wine.

In fact, in accordance with the Law He and His disciples would have drank 4 cups of wine each during the Seder.

To be authentic we should use Wine and matzos (unleavened bread) to commemorate the Lord's death until He comes.

 

[JM]

The drink that Jesus and His Apostles drank at the passover was wine.

In fact, in accordance with the Law He and His disciples would have drank 4 cups of wine each during the Seder.

To be authentic we should use Wine and matzos (unleavened bread) to commemorate the Lord's death until He comes.

I didn't know that, that evanman,

 

[Vic C.]

Amen, evanman. : :D

It is true. I guess it could be said that the strength of wine used in a Seder was not and is not as strong as our common table wines. I know that after four cups of a good Chardonnay or Merlot, by head would be spinning for sure. :

We use grape juice and matzos.

 

[antitox]

I like the balance presented in jcorley's answer. It is proper to consider when and where one would choose to use wine. He mentioned one which was causing someone to stumble over the use of an alcoholic drink; the other reason I would add to it is that there are people in church settings that come from a background of drinking problems and they would certainly have difficulty with it, if not completely relapse being presented with the opportunity.
We know wine was given by God to man. This is exemplified in the Old Testament which required drink offerings.(and Jesus drank wine knowing that His Father had given it to man). I usually don't cover this issue with anyone because of the western church's view, but it appeared that nobody here was hungup over it

deewd...

 

[Bryan]

I guess it could be said that the strength of wine used in a Seder was not and is not as strong as our common table wines.

I've heard this said before, but it always rings hollow to me. Is there anything in terms of historical documentation of ancient wine-making practices to back this up? I tried to find some once, and couldn't find anything either way. (not trying to argue, I really would like to read more on this and can't find anything)

As to the poll:

Clearly, the wine in the Bible was fermented wine, not grape juice. If we want to be literal, that is what we should use.

but...

Since the taking of the cup is itself symbolic in nature (that is, we aren't actually drinking Jesus blood), it could be said that what is actually IN the cup isn't relevant, that only the ceremonial drinking from it is.

 

[Vic C.]

I've heard this said before, but it always rings hollow to me. Is there anything in terms of historical documentation of ancient wine-making practices to back this up? I tried to find some once, and couldn't find anything either way. (not trying to argue, I really would like to read more on this and can't find anything)

No Byran, I didn't take it any other way. I too would be interested. I was just about to dig up a couple of older threads for antitox concerning this very topic. Here they are...

link>Is it wrong to drink?

link>Alcohol

Ok...back to the topic on hand. : :wink:

 

[JM]

I belong to a baptist church and we use grape juice. We are also considered fundamentalists who use a literal theology, I never understood why we used grape juice. It really doesn't matter, does it?

 

[Sower]

Bryan -- Clearly, the wine in the Bible was fermented wine, not grape juice. If we want to be literal, that is what we should use.

Actually, Bryan, when you carefully study the word "wine" in the Bible, it is a translation for BOTH fermented and unfermented grape juice. What we seem to be missing so far in this thread is that in all references to the Lord' Supper in the New Testament, the word "wine" is never used. It is always "THE CUP".

The "Cup of Blessing" represents the blood of Christ -- the SINLESS Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.

On the other hand, yeast [leaven] and fermentation always represent corruption and sin in the Bible. Therefore placing fermented grape juice in the cup is tantamount to violating the clear symbolism of the shed blood of Christ.

For the same reason, it was UNLEAVENED BREAD which was used at the Passover meal, and carried over into the Lord's Supper, unleavened bread representing His sinless body, unfermented grape juice representing His sinless blood.

There is not one reference to "wine" in the accounts of the Lord's Supper, but instead it is called "the fruit of the vine" (Matt.26:29). Why did Christ make this clear distinction? I believe that it was to teach us that only that which is unfermented and separate from corruption can truly represent Him.

Let us remember that the Lord Jesus Christ is our great High Priest, while all believers are king-priests. Both kings and priests as well as Nazarites were FORBIDDEN to drink wine or strong drink. This is further support for using unfermented grape juice.

Passover wines were always mingled with water and would never come even close to the strength of table wines used today. Regardless, if we interpret "the fruit of the vine" as pure, unfermented grape juice, we cannot go wrong. There is a book on Bible wines which has presented all the necessary research to prove that wine does not always mean "fermented" wine.

 

[JM]

On the other hand, yeast [leaven] and fermentation always represent corruption and sin in the Bible. Therefore placing fermented grape juice in the cup is tantamount to violating the clear symbolism of the shed blood of Christ.

I have heard that before, but at the same time, not all wine is fermented with yeast.

I was able to find the following, and yes, wine can be kosher:

Does the Talmud mention wine?
Answer: The Talmud mentions more than a dozen types of wine, including chamar (sparkling wine), kunditon (spiced wine), and yashan noshan (aged dry vintages).

When do Jews drink wine ?
Anytime they want... Actually, in terms of religious rites, Jews recite a Kiddush (sanctifying prayer) over wine prior to Shabbat and festival meals. During Havdalah, a kiddush is also recited. During the Passover and Tu B'Shvat Seders, four cups of wine are drunk. At jewish weddings, two cups of wine are drunk. At the brit milah (bris) of an eight day old male child, one cup of wine is drunk.

The most obvious evidence would be :

1. The use of the word *oinos*, which is never used to mean anything else except fermented wine.

2. The unvaried Jewish practise before and since the time of Jesus of the Jews using unleavend bread and fermented wine for the passover meal.

3. The fact that the passover/last supper/ etc. took place in Spring, 6 months after the harvest, and people in the ancient world did not have the technology to preserve grape juice unfermented for that long. It would have been either wine or vinegar.

There may be other things, but any one of these, let alone all three, seems to indicate that Jesus was almost certainly using fermented wine and unleavened bread when he said "do this in remembrance of me...".

I do not say that we are obliged to follow what Jesus did at the last supper. I have never celebrated the Eucharist with unfermented wine, but I have on occasion been known to use leavened bread, either because it was the local custom, for convenience, or because using a 'loaf' seemed appropriate for the gathering in question. I do not even suggest that people who use leavened bread and unfermented wine for Communion all the time are 'invalid' or disobeying the Lord's command.

The only reason I raise this matter is to point out the absurdity of you (and others) saying that Baptism must be dome by immersion because that is the way the Lord and the early Church did it, when a) that is not necessarily so, and b) you do not apply the same standards yourself to Holy Communion.

Nigel B. Mitchell nbm@echidna.id.au

 

[Monkey Del]

Both are biblical, as wine is made from grape juice!

Your question needs clarifying a bit more.

You are wrong. Grape juice is made from wine. Research it. Wine is the fruit of the vine. To make grape juice you have to boil wine freshly squeezed..to kill the yeast that surrounds the grape.

The instant you squeeze a grape you make wine...the yeast mixes with the sugar in the grape. Natural process.

Grapes are the only fruit that does this naturally, to my knowledge.


besides the church that Paul went to used Wine...else how would there be some getting drunk off grape juice?
1 Chr 11:20: When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21: For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22: What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.


The believers of the early church used wine, so do we.

 

[Free]

Wow, another completely fruitless (pun intended) discussion to show non-believers how ridiculous we can be.

 

[mh13]

I see no reason to use real wine. It is all symbolic anyway, we're to do it in rememberence.
Why use real wine? I know tons of people whom the Lord has delivered from alcohol, and to drink ANY amount of alcohol could be a stumbling block.

 

[Monkey Del]

Wow, another completely fruitless (pun intended) discussion to show non-believers how ridiculous we can be.

What non-believers?

Do you honestly believe anyone is converted to anything by words on a screen...??? :roll:

I believe in keeping the traditions as they were handed down...that's why right after we take of the Lord's supper...we wash one another's feet as Jesus commanded us.

 

[Free]

What non-believers?

Any that may happen to poke their heads in here to see what deep, insightful, life-changing things Christians talk about.

Do you honestly believe anyone is converted to anything by words on a screen...???

No, but I honestly believe that people won't become Christians because of all the petty disputes among believers, whether on a screen or not.

 

[Steve]

Wine, and ONLY wine. ALL churches used wine and the common cup until the advent of the Temperance Movement in the nineteenth century. Then, it became grape juice, and the use of shot glasses started in the 20th century.

The teetotaler's miracle: Christ turned wine into water at the wedding at Cana.