Wine vs. Grape juice

[Imagican]

When one considers that A cup was passed between thirteen people, I doubt that alcohol poisoning occured in the group. With this in mind, I agree with Georges, symbolically the wine WAS blood and water would be pushing it in every direction.

And we also have wine mentioned by Paul himself as being used for medicine and for thy stomachs sake, (indicating the pleasure of it's flavor). There is NOTHING to be denied so long as it is done in the proper perspective, (food or drink that is), for what God hath cleansed, let NO man call common.

So, a glass of wine does NOT an alcoholic make and science has shown the benefits from a glass of red wine a day. All in it's proper order my friends. NO, we shouldn't drink to 'drunkeness' that is obvious, but it is also obvious that wine was used in wedding cerimonies and such and it was used for it's effects. It's up to the individual to decide within their own hearts what 'drunkeness' is to themselves and this limit should NOT be passed.

But, Noah became a drunkard from his vinyard. Do you think that this was enough for him to become separate from God. Will Noah be in heaven or did his drunkeness send him to hell? The answer to this question is the answer to our participating in the drinking of wine. Shall we drink to drunkeness? Of course not. Will drinking to drunkeness separtate us from God. Not likely but it could certainly get in the way of our walk if we were to allow it.

 

[Georges]

I'm not sure of the intent of this thread....

Is it a thread to test opinion on using wine, or do people use GJ because of the "alcohol factor"?

If so, is it because it is a sin to drink wine?


It's not a sin to drink wine......Jesus was accused of being a winebibber...He must have drank wine to some extent or else he wouldn't have been accused.. Also, I didn't see where he refuted the claim. I don't think that he drank wine to excess, but clearly he did drink wine...

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

and don't forget the wedding at Cana.....Jewish weddings are joyest events, there is much wine drinking. Did Jesus just sit back and sip water....I think not.


I think the grapejuice is just a cheap way to cut costs.

 

[Vic C.]

I shall explain how grape juics came to be... again. :-D e

Welch's: They were concerned about children ingesting alcohol. The rest of the explaination I will quote.

The modern-day fruit juice industry actually got its start in 1869 in the Vineland, N.J., home of Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, where he and his son Charles processed the first bottles of "unfermented wine" for use with the communion service at their church. Today, 135 years later, Welch's is the food processing and marketing arm of The National Grape Cooperative Association, Inc. Organized in 1945, National Grape is a grower-owned, agricultural cooperative with 1,350 members.

More than an organization of grape growers, National Grape is a family tradition sharing strong generational and cultural ties to its past and present while keeping an eye on the future. National's growers share a commitment to the highest standards, which are reflected in the quality and goodness of the Concord and Niagara grapes produced for Welch's products sold throughout the U.S. and in more than 35 countries and territories around the world.

http://www.welchs.com/company/general_co_info.html

Thomas B. Welch, M.D., the founder of Welch Grape Juice Company, was born in England in 1825. A devout Christian and staunch prohibitionist, Dr. Thomas B. Welch did not like wine being used in his church's communion service. In 1869 he decided to try developing a non-alcoholic substitution. Dr. Welch had an ample supply of grapes on hand, because he lived in the town of Vineland, New Jersey (named for its many vineyards), and it was common for him to receive bushels of the fruit as payment for dental services. Experimenting at night, Welch tried to create a grape beverage that would not ferment and become alcoholic. Fermentation, the dentist knew, occurred when the natural sugar in grape juice was converted to alcohol by yeast particles that collected in the fruit. To prevent this, the yeast would have to be destroyed. Welch accomplished this by placing bottles of grape juice in pots of boiling water, and allowing the heat to kill the yeast.

His creation was called "Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine," and the dentist tried to persuade churches to use it as the communion beverage. But he met with great resistance. Wine was a key part of the communion ceremony, and replacing it with anything else would be irreligious.

Welch, was very disappointed, because he had been temperance-minded since childhood. His father, Abraham, a Watertown, New York merchant, was a hardworking family man who occasionally liked to drink whiskey from a jug he kept in the cellar. This led to terrible fights with Mrs. Welch, who thought alcohol was from the devil. His parents' arguments most likely helped shape young Thomas' belief in the evil nature of alcohol. This conviction was further strengthened as he grew more active in the church, and became a minister for several years before becoming a dentist.

The prohibitionist dentist kept Welch busy serving the cause of temperance. He became a self-appointed warden of Vineland's dry law, seeing to it that anybody who sold intoxicants within the city limits was prosecuted. During 1870-71 he led crusades in the neighboring communities of Millville and Bridgeton, to convert the towns to Vineland's prohibitionist ways.

For the next twenty years, Dr. Welch's Unfermented Wine remained a family refreshment, enjoyed by the Welches at home, and sold to a few churches for communion purposes. In 1892 Thomas Welch's youngest son, Dr. Charles Welch (he too was a dentist), decided to test out his belief that the grape drink could be successful as a commercial product. Borrowing $5,000 from his father, the forty-year-old Charles set up a juice production facility on the family's property. To make his product more appealing to the general public, he changed its name to Welch's Grape Juice. The following year, Charles introduced his beverage at the Columbian Exposition in Chicago, by giving out free samples of Welch's Grape Juice to millions of fairgoers. As a result of this national exposure, demand for the drink grew so much that Charles gave up his dental practice, and devoted his time to juice making.

http://www.ohiosbdc-ysu.com/Location/Gu ... lch_s.html

 

[Vic C.]

We must understand that the alcohol content of wine back then doesn't compare to what it is now. Plus, as I had mentioned several times in the past and in this thread; wine was diluted 3/1 with water when used during Holy ceremonies, such as a seder. 8-)

 

[JM]

We must understand that the alcohol content of wine back then doesn't compare to what it is now. Plus, as I had mentioned several times in the past and in this thread; wine was diluted 3/1 with water when used during Holy ceremonies, such as a seder. 8-)

Vic, if I understand it correctly, the alcohol content could be very strong or very weak...they have little idea on how to get the same % for each batch...and that's why they diluted it.

 

[Georges]

I found this interesting......

Jdg 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

and from Jewishencyclopedia.com

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... h=wine#600

....The juice of the grape is the subject of special praise in the Scriptures. The "vine tree" is distinguished from the other trees in the forest (Ezek. xv. 2). The fig-tree is next in rank to the vine (Deut. viii. 8), though as food the fig is of greater importance (comp. Num. xx. 5) than the "wine which cheereth God and man" (Judges ix. 13; comp. Ps. civ. 15; Eccl. x. 19). Wine is a good stimulant for "such as be faint in the wilderness" (II Sam. xvi. 2), and for "those that be of heavy hearts" (Prov. xxxi. 6).

and....

For religious ceremonies wine is preferable to other beverages. Wine "cheereth God" (Judges ix. 13); hence no religious ceremony should be performed with other beverages than wine (Ber. 35a). Over all fruit the benediction used is that for "the fruits of the tree," but over wine a special benediction for "the fruits of the vine" is pronounced (Ber. vi. 1). This latter benediction is, according to R. Eliezer, pronounced only when the wine has been properly mixed with water. Over natural wine the benediction is the same as that used for the "fruits of the tree" (Ber. 50b). The drinking of natural wine on the night of Passover is not "in the manner of free men" (Pes. 108b). "Ḳiddush" and "Habdalah" should be recited over a cup of wine. Beer may be used in countries where that is the national beverage (Pes. 106a, 107a). According to Raba, one may squeeze the juice of a bunch of grapes into a cup and say the "Ḳiddush" (B. B. 97b). The cup is filled with natural wine during grace, in memory of the Holy Land, where the best wine is produced; but after grace the wine is mixed.