Winning People Over

[elijah23]

To convince people you are right about something, you have to understand what they are thinking. Some people do not completely trust Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles. To win them over, you have to quote the one person they DO trust: Jesus Christ. For instance, if you want to convince them that same-sex marriage is wrong, quote these verses:

[6] But from the beginning of creation, `God made them male and female.'
[7] `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
[8] and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. Mark 10:6-8 RSV

Of course, some people only believe what they WANT to believe and can't be won over.

 

[handy]

Of course, some people only believe what they WANT to believe and can't be won over.

I would say that if someone doesn't trust the writings of Peter and Paul as found in the Scriptures, they automatically fall into this category.

 

[Free Christian]

Hit the nail on the head Handy!

 

[Claudya]

I would say that if someone doesn't trust the writings of Peter and Paul as found in the Scriptures, they automatically fall into this category.

I don't trust them as much as I trust Jesus, because they were mortal humans writing about what they experienced with God. They may have been wise, but what they say just doesn't have the same importance as what the Master Himself said.
They were humans, and humans may err. Just like today's pastors or theologican or christian authors may err, and we should take the liberty to disagree with them, else there's a big risk of being misled.

Also, reading Mark 10:6-8 as a statement against homosexuals is quite a stretch, reading the chapter in context Jesus was speaking about divorce.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I would say that if someone doesn't trust the writings of Peter and Paul as found in the Scriptures, they automatically fall into this category.

I don't trust them as much as I trust Jesus, because they were mortal humans writing about what they experienced with God. They may have been wise, but what they say just doesn't have the same importance as what the Master Himself said.
They were humans, and humans may err. Just like today's pastors or theologican or christian authors may err, and we should take the liberty to disagree with them, else there's a big risk of being misled.

Also, reading Mark 10:6-8 as a statement against homosexuals is quite a stretch, reading the chapter in context Jesus was speaking about divorce.

Then are you saying you don't take the word of God as being the word of God?
You just pick and choose what you consider to be the word of God?

2 Timothy 3:16-17;
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work".

 

[Free Christian]

2 Timothy 3 v 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God... Even that which is written of what Jesus said was penned and recorded by men and not Jesus Himself. The whole Word of God, the Bible was written the same way. But under inspiration of God. Moved by the Holy Spirit. Another example in 2 Peter 1 v 21 showing that men are moved by God to express His will and teachings. Men chosen by Him just like the writers of the New Testament.

 

[Claudya]

You just pick and choose what you consider to be the word of God?

Doesn't everyone just pick what they accept, annd chose to reject or ignore other writings, like those text we consider "apogryphical", ie not part of the Biblical canon of texts, or inconvenient old testament texts?
Everyone choses to accept only what they want to accept. It's just that some people's choice is to accept "what's in the Bible"... but the Bible itself is a somewhat arbitrarily created canon of texts put together by some church people 300 years after Jesus. But it's still a choice you make to trust those people that made the Bible canon. So everyone picks what they consider the word of God.

 

[Free Christian]

If we reject everything that was written and recorded by men then the whole Bible would be rejected.

 

[Claudya]

If we reject everything that was written and recorded by men then the whole Bible would be rejected.

Yeah that's pretty difficult. Any holy book of mankind would have to be rejected.
Anyway, you don't need to reject the whole Bible, you just gotta be aware that
a) all human knowledge about absolute truth is incomplete, limited and rather relative. Basically there is nothing we can ever know beyond doubt.
b) that you will have to make a choice what holy scriptures you want to follow. It's okay to doubt the choices others (like pastors, teachers and parents) make for you.

 

[Free Christian]

Hi Claudya. I read from the NKJV and the KJV. I accept all that is in them as the Word of God. There may be the odd word translation error, such as Easter instead of Passover for example, but I do accept all the scripture teachings as Gods Word. Genesis to Revelation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If we reject everything that was written and recorded by men then the whole Bible would be rejected.

Yeah that's pretty difficult. Any holy book of mankind would have to be rejected.
Anyway, you don't need to reject the whole Bible, you just gotta be aware that
a) all human knowledge about absolute truth is incomplete, limited and rather relative. Basically there is nothing we can ever know beyond doubt.
b) that you will have to make a choice what holy scriptures you want to follow. It's okay to doubt the choices others (like pastors, teachers and parents) make for you.

Jesus always referred to the Scriptures, that would be the Hebrew Holy Scriptures.
If you believe what Jesus said, then you must believe in these Scriptures as well.
Since the New Testament writers are constantly writing in reference to these Scriptures, then you must believe them as well.
And if you believe in them as well, then you believe in the whole Bible.
And if you believe in the whole Bible..., then what are you trying to say?

 

[stovebolts]

To convince people you are right about something, you have to understand what they are thinking. Some people do not completely trust Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles. To win them over, you have to quote the one person they DO trust: Jesus Christ. For instance, if you want to convince them that same-sex marriage is wrong, quote these verses:

[6] But from the beginning of creation, `God made them male and female.'
[7] `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
[8] and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. Mark 10:6-8 RSV

Of course, some people only believe what they WANT to believe and can't be won over.

I understand what you're saying and I don't know if you don't trust Paul or Peter. But what I've learned through the years is that Paul and Peter always agree with the words of Jesus in their letters and for those who disagree, I would ask if perhaps they didn't have a misunderstanding with what Jesus said.

Aside from that, I agree that for those who who don't trust Peter or Paul's writings that we should encourage them with the words of Jesus. That being said, even Paul says,

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

We follow Jesus, not Paul. That being said, we believe Paul was an Apostle of Christ just as is recorded in the book of Acts. He was a changed man who we can learn much from.

We like to sound correct in saying that we only follow Jesus, but in reality we are all following the teachings of somebody else. Every time we read a commentary from someone else we decide if what they are saying is in line with our understanding or not.

In the days of Jesus, there were two schools of thought. Shemia and Hillel. (spelling). Jesus would be asked, "What do you say" and what was really being asked was, "Who do you side with". Also, Jesus would say, "You have heard it said, but I say" which in essence Jesus was correctly interpreting Torah which is what the two main schools of thought were trying to accomplish. That being said, Jesus always sided with Hillel and went one step further to the left than Hillel with the exception of marriage where he took a step to the right of Shamia. You see, the discussion isn't new but we need to make sure we're discussing the right issue and teachings form the Apostles themselves should carry some weight.

This brings me to how a Rabbi would pick his disciples. When a rabbi would pick his disciples, he was essentially saying, "I believe you can be just like me". Jesus picked both Peter and Paul so when we try to discount what they write, aren't we really discounting how Jesus taught?

BTW, Paul was instructed by Hillel's grandson Gamliel. as recorded in scripture.

 

[jasoncran]

the spelling is correct. I believe Hillel was alive when jesus was born and likely heard about. I do hope to meet him in heaven. Hillel, next to king david is one of my favorite teachers of the law. Hillel was big on hospitality and being humble. albeit he wasn't nice if you didn't agree with him on the torah.lol

 

[handy]

You just pick and choose what you consider to be the word of God?

Doesn't everyone just pick what they accept, annd chose to reject or ignore other writings, like those text we consider "apogryphical", ie not part of the Biblical canon of texts, or inconvenient old testament texts?
Everyone choses to accept only what they want to accept. It's just that some people's choice is to accept "what's in the Bible"... but the Bible itself is a somewhat arbitrarily created canon of texts put together by some church people 300 years after Jesus. But it's still a choice you make to trust those people that made the Bible canon. So everyone picks what they consider the word of God.

Speaking for myself, no... I don't choose to ignore or reject "inconvenient old testament texts". I don't ignore or reject any part of Scripture. Now, I don't believe the Old Testament law is enforced now because I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the Law with His death and we now have a New Covenant with God. That's not rejecting the old testament, it's simply putting it into proper perspective.

As for the apocryphal writings... I simply have faith that the Bible as we have it.... all of it... contains God's inspired and divinely protected message to us. I've never really understood why some people believe that somehow the gospels contain correctly contain Jesus' teachings, but gets it wrong with Paul's and Peter's.... to me, if any part of the Old or New Testament isn't trustworthy, then none of it is.

But, it comes down to a matter of faith. Either we believe that everything in the Bible is God's inspired and divinely protected word... or it's not. If someone believes that it's not, the cherry picking becomes a necessity.

 

[Claudya]

I guess the whole idea of "winning people over" is weird. It's putting glory on us instead of God.
There are so many smug pastors or other christians bragging how many people they have won for christ (or any other cause). They put themselve above those people they "have won", and also above God.

 

[Free Christian]

Excellent point Stovebolts. Jesus did do the choosing of those whose writings are in the New Testament. Why on earth would He choose those who would write things that cannot be trusted, as some say? God is all knowing, past present and future. Why would He choose people who would put things in scripture, knowing they would, that cannot be believed or trusted in what they wrote? He simply wouldn't, He would choose those who can be trusted with the truth to convey it to us through the scripture. To allow otherwise would be in contradiction to all that God is. Good point!