without faith

[sourberry]

Question for you? Can a believer have demon possession with over 2,000 legions in him or her where the Holy Spirit dwells at the same time?

This question will probably bring us into speculations. Many doctrines are built on speculations, as I think. Such doctrines are often claimed to be God's doctrines. Hence there is separation in the church, as I think.

There was a movie where the church separated on the question: one half believed that Jesus owned his clothes, and the other half believed that Jesus did not own his clothes.

 

[iLOVE]

I am only checking if my heart is telling me the right story.

Blessings sourberry,

This is how you test the Spirit. If you were accused of being a Christian at work or at school, would there be enough evidence to convict you or would you be found innocent of all charges; because your decision making is like everybody else, your orientation is like everybody else, there is nothing distinctively KINGDOM about you. It should be CLEAR that you belong to Jesus Christ appropriately but not unapologetically. This is how you know if a person is a Christian Believer, a Christian that is disconnected from the Cross, or a person(s) who does not believe in Lord Jesus Christ. Everybody else is coming out the closet, you might as well come out too!

 

[iLOVE]

Blessings sourberry,

Because you are not a Christian Believer as I notice many things you will not understand. However you are being pulled in.

 

[sourberry]

In the New Testament writings it's clear that faith plays an important part in healing. When Jesus heals, he frequently says something like "you have been healed by your faith." It's never clear, however, that healing can be accomplished ONLY through faith.

I am glad you have brought faith into discussion.

I can only share my thoughts. It appears to me that apart from health there is also spiritual health, both come closely with each other. Jesus heals both, and the two are very much alike.

 

[sourberry]

I've always believed that everyone is an unbeliever until Jesus touches them..

tob

Faith needs to be planted and grown. Like everything else, as I think.

 

[sourberry]

Blessings sourberry,

Because you are not a Christian Believer as I notice many things you will not understand. However you are being pulled in.

I do not understand many things, that is right.

I believe any understanding is granted by Holly Father. Nobody can understand at his own desire.

 

[iLOVE]

My thoughts on "without faith". The scripture says, "Let us therefore come boldly (with confidence) unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need - Hebrews 4:16 KJV."

While Proverbs 28:1 says, "The wicked flee when no one is pursuing, But the righteous are bold as a lion."

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through Christ. Galatians 4:1-7 NKJV

It is crystal clear to me when you pray or worship God you must have faith with confidence who you are or God will delay your request. You must know that you are the righteousness of God by faith in Christ Jesus, you are a son or daughter of our Father, and you are royalty - an heir in the Kingdom of God. Jesus says, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Christians must come boldly to the throne and know God hears our prayers and worship. Exodus 32:9-14 KJV is a clear example how to come boldly to God.

 

[turnorburn]

I like to compare the faith that God gives with the peace that God gives.. they are nothing at all like what you'll find in the world.. Someone says say hey man keep the faith or keep the peace baby.. two expressions we used a lot in the 60's...
the peace that Jesus gives us is like the God given faith he gives us you don't come by them naturally..

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

tob

 

[Edward]

Nobody can understand at his own desire.

First is belief. Then He gives understanding through the Spirit.

 

[Classik]

I have been away for a while. So sorry for late reply. Thanks to all who posted here.

About faith, truly we can't please GOD without it. However I remember there were periods when GOD helped me when I had doubt in me. Not long ago I took a professional exam. I messed up very well...that was my analysis. My script was almost empty. I left the exam hall complaining bitterly and was terrified. I didn't even prepare very well for the exam. Long story short, result has been published and I am today certified.

Once again, I am not trying to encourage people to be faithless ...GOD forbid.

 

[Classik]

I have been away for a while. So sorry for late reply. Thanks to all who posted here.

About faith, truly we can't please GOD without it. However I remember there were periods when GOD helped me when I had doubt in me. Not long ago I took a professional exam. I messed up very well...that was my analysis. My script was almost empty. I left the exam hall complaining bitterly and was terrified. I didn't even prepare very well for the exam. Long story short, result has been published and I am today certified.

Once again, I am not trying to encourage people to be faithless ...GOD forbid.

 

[Gary]

I must be missing something. I am not suggesting a debate, I am only testing what my heart tells me.

If you could just show one example of a non-believer being healed by Jesus? Or by apostles, or by disciples?

Thanks.

Mark 1
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.



The man in verse 23 didn't have faith in Jesus because as we can see in verse 27, what these people were witnessing was something totally new. They were hearing a doctrine they had never heard before.

When we move down to verse 34 we see this.


Mark 1
34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.


Jesus wouldn't let the devils speak because they knew who He was and no one else did. The people that came to be healed, came because of the signs they had witnessed, not because they had faith in Jesus. They didn't even know who Jesus was.

Here's a passage from John.

John 6
1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.

2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.


Again we see that it was because of the miracles that they followed Him.


All the people healed in the beginning of Jesus' ministry were basically nonbelievers. Even His disciples had no idea who He was when He first chose them. So faith played no part in their decision to follow Him.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[sourberry]

Welcome to the forum, Gary.

I think my first post was addressing atheists and witches (post #6). The angle was shiffted to "nonbelievers" in the synagogue when you quoted Mark 1:23.

We, as humans, cannot clear things up. Only the Holly Spirit can, as I think.

With love.

 

[Edward]

Welcome to the forum, Gary.

I think my first post was addressing atheists and witches (post #6). The angle was shifted to "nonbelievers" in the synagogue when you quoted Mark 1:23.

We, as humans, cannot clear things up. Only the Holly Spirit can, as I think.

With love.

So why are you on here asking questions of men? I'm kidding but of course you are correct in what you say. Consider these:

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you./(KJV)

1 John 2: 20-27
20 But ye have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him./(KJV)

 

[Gary]

Welcome to the forum, Gary.

I think my first post was addressing atheists and witches (post #6). The angle was shiffted to "nonbelievers" in the synagogue when you quoted Mark 1:23.

We, as humans, cannot clear things up. Only the Holly Spirit can, as I think.

With love.

Actually the angle was shifted to nonbelievers when you asked this in (post #8)

I do not think Jesus Christ healed non-believers. According to gospels, the manifestation of faith was followed by healing. I am not sure apostles healed non-believers too.

Regarding Mark 16:17-18, I am skeptical because I think this text is not found in the early christian libraries. I think this text is also missing in the early (i.e. forth century) Bibles.

The post that I was responding to is (post #11...I included the quote in my response) You requested one example of Jesus healing a nonbeliever. The individual in Mark 1:23 was a nonbeliever as were the rest of the people in that chapter. Jesus hadn't yet proclaimed Himself the Son of God. The people that came to Him did so because of the miracles He was performing, not because He was the Son of God.

 

[sourberry]

You requested one example of Jesus healing a nonbeliever. The individual in Mark 1:23 was a nonbeliever

Ok, so you call a person in the synagogue nonbeliever. The scripture does not seem to call him nonbeliever. Jesus does not seem to call him nonbeliever.

Am I missing something?

 

[Gary]

Ok, so you call a person in the synagogue nonbeliever. The scripture does not seem to call him nonbeliever. Jesus does not seem to call him nonbeliever.

Am I missing something?

What's your definition of a "nonbeliever"?

My definition is someone who does not believe in Jesus.

 

[Edward]

I think it's reasonable to assume that the man was a non-believer, being in a possessed state as he was. Not saying that Christians can not be possessed also, but...the Holy Spirit had not yet be given as a comforter to all back then. Very few had the Holy Spirit then.

 

[Kathi]

Mark 1
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.



The man in verse 23 didn't have faith in Jesus because as we can see in verse 27, what these people were witnessing was something totally new. They were hearing a doctrine they had never heard before.

When we move down to verse 34 we see this.


Mark 1
34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.


Jesus wouldn't let the devils speak because they knew who He was and no one else did. The people that came to be healed, came because of the signs they had witnessed, not because they had faith in Jesus. They didn't even know who Jesus was.

Here's a passage from John.

John 6
1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.

2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.


Again we see that it was because of the miracles that they followed Him.


All the people healed in the beginning of Jesus' ministry were basically nonbelievers. Even His disciples had no idea who He was when He first chose them. So faith played no part in their decision to follow Him.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[Kathi]

Ok,Gary that makes alot of sense now...It was the miracles that made them believe.