without faith

[farouk]

Ok,Gary that makes alot of sense now...It was the miracles that made them believe.

My mind goes to Hebrews 11: 'He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'. (And then that great chapter goes on to say: 'By faith...'; "By faith..."; "By faith..."...

Blessings.

 

[sourberry]

What's your definition of a "nonbeliever"?

My definition is someone who does not believe in Jesus.

People in the synagogue believe what Moses told them to believe. Would you call Moses a nonbeliever?

Jesus would have never called Moses a nonbeliever, as I think, neither people in the synagogue who came to worship Jesus' Father. You see. Jesus came to the place where people worship Jesus' Father. And, whoever obeys Jesus' Father - is in brotherhood with Jesus.

And you called these people nonbelievers. While Jesus may have already regarded them as brothers. I have placed quotes around "nonbelievers" when you said that. I cannot dismiss, that this man with an unclean spirit, prayed to Father, for a release, and that same moment Jesus stepped in, and the unclean spirit rebelled.

 

[Gary]

People in the synagogue believe what Moses told them to believe. Would you call Moses a nonbeliever?

Jesus would have never called Moses a nonbeliever, as I think, neither people in the synagogue who came to worship Jesus' Father. You see. Jesus came to the place where people worship Jesus' Father. And, whoever obeys Jesus' Father - is in brotherhood with Jesus.

And you called these people nonbelievers. While Jesus may have already regarded them as brothers. I have placed quotes around "nonbelievers" when you said that. I cannot dismiss, that this man with an unclean spirit, prayed to Father, for a release, and that same moment Jesus stepped in, and the unclean spirit rebelled.

Do you have scripture to indicate that this possessed individual was in fact praying to God, or is this just your personal opinion? If he was praying to the Father, why did he cry out and tell Jesus to "Let us alone"?

Sitting in a temple or synagogue does not make one a believer. Jesus preached against the scribes and Pharisees many times. He even stated that they didn't believe. These people spent much of their time in synagogues.

 

[Kathi]

 

[farouk]

Ms Kathi:

V. good. Hebrews 11 also has some very good definitions of what faith is.

Blessings.

 

[Edward]

People in the synagogue believe what Moses told them to believe. Would you call Moses a nonbeliever?

Jesus would have never called Moses a nonbeliever, as I think, neither people in the synagogue who came to worship Jesus' Father. You see. Jesus came to the place where people worship Jesus' Father. And, whoever obeys Jesus' Father - is in brotherhood with Jesus.

And you called these people nonbelievers. While Jesus may have already regarded them as brothers. I have placed quotes around "nonbelievers" when you said that. I cannot dismiss, that this man with an unclean spirit, prayed to Father, for a release, and that same moment Jesus stepped in, and the unclean spirit rebelled.

We do not know what was in this mans heart. Lip service does not make things a fact. He could have even said that he believed but that would not make it so necessarily. Did he have faith? We do not know for sure.

I went ahead and went to the scripture and looked up unbeliever in the original Greek, to see how they define it, this may help the discussion.

From 1 Corinthians 14:23 "unbelievers"

Unbelievers (G571)
ἄπιστος
apistos
ap'-is-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively) disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith (specifically a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing): - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing)./(Strong's Concordance through E-Sword)

Hope that helps.

 

[sourberry]

We do not know what was in this mans heart. Lip service does not make things a fact.

Now, instead of calling this man a nonbeliever you say "we do not know what was in this mans heart".

My post was not in vain, as I think.

 

[sourberry]

Do you have scripture to indicate that this possessed individual was in fact praying to God, or is this just your personal opinion?

Neither scripture nor my opinion. I only say what I need to say.

With love.

 

[Edward]

Now, instead of calling this man a nonbeliever you say "we do not know what was in this mans heart".

My post was not in vain, as I think.

Oh come on now. What I meant is that you do not know that this man was a believer. The short of it is that non believers can and do get healed. I know this. If you can not or do not want to believe that then that's ok I guess. To each his own.

 

[Gary]

Neither scripture nor my opinion. I only say what I need to say.

With love.

I see nothing wrong with that, but if we're discussing scripture and what you need to say is not in line with scripture, you're either being coached on what to say or you're expressing an opinion. Either way it doesn't matter to me. A question was asked and I gave an answer.

 

[Tony Hyman]

What's your definition of a "nonbeliever"?

My definition is someone who does not believe in Jesus.

Not to nit pick what youre saying Gary but it dawned on me the other day that even the first 12 Descilpes were a little confused as to their real motives for believing or saying they are believers in Christ. Christ showed them and all of Us that it gose deeper than that.In Matthew 20 :20 -28 also Mark 10:35-45 we see how the Mother of James and John including all the other Desciples are all brought on the same page as to what it entails to be part of the family of God. Before that event they were all possibly under the wrong impression as to their real motives for "following Christ" in the first place, under Matthew 4 :18-22 (Fishers Of Men); possibly were .Till that point they might well have thought like most others at that time that if they followed the Promised One they would be entitled to front row seats in ruling the World including Heaven and losing the yoke of Roman Domination as did the Pharisees and other political thinkers of that time.
If desciples who were close to the Master(Edit: excluding Mark of course) sometimes got a little confused , what chance have we got 2000 yrs down the line if we dont seek and understand the Will and Word of God on a daily basis anchoring ourselves as "true believers" as explained in Matthew above.
I believe we grow in faith as did Peter before(all his blunders)and after the Crusifixion, to his ability to heal and inspire after Pentacost.

 

[sourberry]

Faith is an amazing thing, Tony. Nothing changed in the last 2000 years, or in the last 5000 years, as I think. Our hearts are born the same. So, we begin with repent, as I think. And, perhaps, one thing we repent on is the lack of faith.

With love.

 

[Gary]

Not to nit pick what youre saying Gary but it dawned on me the other day that even the first 12 Descilpes were a little confused as to their real motives for believing or saying they are believers in Christ. Christ showed them and all of Us that it gose deeper than that.In Matthew 20 :20 -28 also Mark 10:35-45 we see how the Mother of James and John including all the other Desciples are all brought on the same page as to what it entails to be part of the family of God. Before that event they were all possibly under the wrong impression as to their real motives for "following Christ" in the first place, under Matthew 4 :18-22 (Fishers Of Men); possibly were .Till that point they might well have thought like most others at that time that if they followed the Promised One they would be entitled to front row seats in ruling the World including Heaven and losing the yoke of Roman Domination as did the Pharisees and other political thinkers of that time.
If desciples who were close to the Master(Edit: excluding Mark of course) sometimes got a little confused , what chance have we got 2000 yrs down the line if we dont seek and understand the Will and Word of God on a daily basis anchoring ourselves as "true believers" as explained in Matthew above.
I believe we grow in faith as did Peter before(all his blunders)and after the Crusifixion, to his ability to heal and inspire after Pentacost.

Hello Tony

I understand what you're saying and I don't believe I said anything to the contrary. As I already stated, Sourberry wanted an example of Jesus healing a nonbeliever. I gave him that example. I don't understand where all the confusion is coming from.

 

[Tony Hyman]

My apologies Gary .I charged all gung ho in on the definition of or qualification of a believer as I understand it.I misinterpreted your posts which correctly and specifically referes to non-believers.In which case your explanation is spot -on ,John 3 :16 springs to mind.This will teach me to read posts more correctly.

 

[Gary]

My apologies Gary .I charged all gung ho in on the definition of or qualification of a believer as I understand it.I misinterpreted your posts which correctly and specifically referes to non-believers.In which case your explanation is spot -on ,John 3 :16 springs to mind.This will teach me to read posts more correctly.

It happens.