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Women in the Pulpit

Then, Paul and/or God give two reasons for their reasoning:

Reason #1: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Reason #2: Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


Actually, there's a third verse that goes with the other two. Maybe you could explain how about that, too.
Yes, let's explore that, shall we?

Disclaimer:

Whatever this 3rd verse adds to the context, before even reading it, I think that we can all agree that it cannot be interpreted as saying, "Forget the declaration that occurred 3 verses ago! And, while you're at it, forget the two reasons listed in support of that unambiguous declaration!"


Here is the third verse after 1 Timothy 2:12, upon special request from Deborah13:

<sup>"</sup>Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." -1 Timothy 2:15

I'll take a stab at an interpretation within the context. Let me know how you think I did:

"Even though I most definitely subjugated all women in the previous 3 verses, women should feel important that they are given the privilege to carry a man's child and endure the pain of labor and take the blame when the child is born disappointingly a female. However, if they then fail to continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety, their childbearing is worth nothing, as far as their salvation is concerned."


How did I do?
 
And it(the article) still made VERY compelling arguments regarding the passage in light of the rest of scripture. I'll see if I can go pull some of those up.
Did the article make more compelling arguments than mine, or just more comforting?

Be honest with yourself.
 
And it(the article) still made VERY compelling arguments regarding the passage in light of the rest of scripture. I'll see if I can go pull some of those up.
Did the article make more compelling arguments than mine, or just more comforting?

Be honest with yourself.

The article makes compelling enough points that I think it would be stupid of me to dismiss them right off the bat.
Would I like for the article to be correct? The obvious answer is yes. But obviously I have my doubts for good reasons.
The explanation offered, while it makes a lot of sense, doesn't account for why scripture is so obscure about it. (I mean, other than the fact that those whom Paul was writing to knew EXACTLY what he was talking about and not much explanation was needed for them. Still, if it was important enough to include in the Bible, you would think that more explanation would be offered at some pint or another for those of us in the coning centuries.) On the other hand, if the evidence that female deacons, teachers, and even a female apostle existed is correct, then that creates a MAJOR contradiction and suggests that there must be some reason for the "contradicting" passages, whether they can be wholly accounted for or not.

So, oddly enough, this turns out to be a complex issue.
 
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And it(the article) still made VERY compelling arguments regarding the passage in light of the rest of scripture. I'll see if I can go pull some of those up.
Did the article make more compelling arguments than mine, or just more comforting?

Be honest with yourself.

The article makes compelling enough points that I think it would be stupid of me to dismiss them right off the bat.
Would I like for the article to be correct? The obvious answer is yes. But obviously I have my doubts for good reasons.
The explanation offered, while it makes a lot of sense, doesn't account for why scripture is so obscure about it. (I mean, other than the fact that those whom Paul was writing to knew EXACTLY what he was talking about and not much explanation was needed for them. Still, if it was important enough to include in the Bible, you would think that more explanation would be offered at some pint or another for those of us in the coning centuries.) On the other hand, if the evidence that female deacons, teachers, and even a female apostle existed is correct, then that creates a MAJOR contradiction and suggests that there must be some reason for the "contradicting" passages, whether they can be wholly accounted for or not.

So, oddly enough, this turns out to be a complex issue.


This is a problem for us, 2000 years removed from the events, we have only Paul's side of this dicussion. If we could see the full discussion between Timothy and Paul - both sides - we would probably have a better understanding of whether Paul was making a case for something universal and true for all time, or something culturally relevant to specific circumstances of Timothy's church. As is the case with so many other verses from his letters, we're left with trying to see how it fits with Paul's overall message of equality within the Christian community.
 
This is a problem for us, 2000 years removed from the events, we have only Paul's side of this dicussion. If we could see the full discussion between Timothy and Paul - both sides - we would probably have a better understanding of whether Paul was making a case for something universal and true for all time, or something culturally relevant to specific circumstances of Timothy's church. As is the case with so many other verses from his letters, we're left with trying to see how it fits with Paul's overall message of equality within the Christian community.


Are the Scriptures the word of Paul or the Word of God?
 
This is a problem for us, 2000 years removed from the events, we have only Paul's side of this dicussion. If we could see the full discussion between Timothy and Paul - both sides - we would probably have a better understanding of whether Paul was making a case for something universal and true for all time, or something culturally relevant to specific circumstances of Timothy's church. As is the case with so many other verses from his letters, we're left with trying to see how it fits with Paul's overall message of equality within the Christian community.


Are the Scriptures the word of Paul or the Word of God?

Some of both, and you have to interpret.

Paul's letters are responses to specific circumstances in particular churches, to which he gives specific cultural answers, yet on other occasions he's clearly speaking to the actual theology of Christ's message. I think his letter to the Romans is packed full of Christian theology. It's his most well thought out and fully articulated overall view of what Christ's life and ministry and death and resurrection means.

How could we possibly think that Christ's message filtered through human authors could be easy for us to understand? The scriptures of our New Testament are a mixture of various types of text; prayer, Gospel narratives, letters, apocalyptic messages, parables, etc. No single scripture verse can stand on it's own, but taken collectively they form a description of Christ's mission, His destiny, our salvation, they form our faith.

Yet, even so, as thoroughly as we learn the scriptures there are still mysteries to our faith. The Euchrist, the mystery of our faith, we can only be in awe of, we can never fully understand. Likewise the mystery of the trinity. The scriptures are our primary way of understanding God's will, but we still have to depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us through our faith journey.

I know this isn't the way many Christians believe, and I'm OK with that. We're all working our our own salvation with fear and trembling. As a Methodist I have faith in God's grace to protect us before we commit to Christ, to provide our salvation when we do, and to guide us to perfection during our discipleship.
 
Although your answer will put any thing you say in a different light , I do appreciate your honesty.

Thank you, and I understand.

You may find, as time goes on, that we have far more in common than we have differences. I'm a real fan of C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.
 
IMO, whether the article I read is right or wrong, either way it will have little affect on my life as a whole. I'm not and never was seeking to hold any actual authority in a church. (What others do is their business.) And it's just obvious that you should respect your husband.

That said, if nothing else, the explanation about the Greek word translated to authority in the verse in 1st Timothy not being the normal Greek word for authority, and it seeming to mean something stronger than the translation may lead us to believe, does seem to shed new light on the verse.
 
Here was what the article had to say regarding 1 Cor. 14:34-36:
In exegesis, one must pay attention to ALL the details in the text--and this text affords an excellent example of why this is important.
There is a tiny little particle in the Greek text--not even translated in the NIV and NAS!--that provides some interesting evidence in favor of this view.
Immediately after verse 35, the first word in verse 36 is a single letter particle that is translated "What?!" in the KJV and ASV. This word in most contexts is translated as 'or' or 'rather', but these are always in series, like "either...or" or "this or that or that...".

My personal conviction is that Paul is quoting/refuting a mistaken position. The language, tone, style, textual context, historical context, and known facts about Corinth and Paul's praxis indicates this to me.

This is essentially the same position taken by Fitzmyer:
"Verses 34–35 are considered to be a quotation of what some Corinthian Christian men have been maintaining against women who have been speaking out in cultic assemblies. It has come to Paul’s attention, just as did the slogans quoted earlier in the letter (6:12, 13; 8:1, 4, 5; 10:23). Paul’s reaction to the statement quoted is expressed in v. 36, which is introduced by the disjunctive particle ē, “or,†used here twice with two rhetorical questions (as also in 11:22b), along with the masc. monous modifying hymas, referring to such Corinthian men. So (with differing nuances) Bilezikian, Flanagan, Gourgues, Kaiser, Snyder, Odell-Scott, Talbert. ... In this case, the three verses were written by Paul, but vv. 34–35 are the quotation of a view that is not his. His reaction is expressed in v. 36, vague though it is, and its implication would be egalitarian and would contradict neither 11:5 nor Gal 3:28. Even though this last interpretation may not fully satisfy either the understanding of v. 36 or its connection with what precedes, it is better than the other interpretations, pace Hays (1 Cor, 248), Garland (1 Cor, 667); and it rightly severs the close connection of v. 36 to vv. 34–35, as even Murphy-O’Connor (“Interpolations,†90, 92) has recognized.... Women should remain silent in the churches. Lit. “let women be silent in the cultic assemblies,†i.e., in the various house-churches of Corinth. Paul quotes the saying of some Corinthian men who undoubtedly might allow the women to join audibly in “Amen†to a prayer, as in the thanksgiving of 14:16, but would exclude them from any form of active public speaking in churches (now in the plur., in contrast to the sing. “church†used so far in this chapter [vv. 4–5, 12, 19, 23, 28]); the prep. phrase echoes 11:16c. Some MSS (D, F, G, K, L) add hymōn, “your (wives),†which is otherwise omitted in the best MSS. In either case, one should note the difference from 11:5, where the sing. gynē is found, whereas here it is plur. hai gynaikes. The silence is general and absolute, and not merely while someone else is speaking (v. 30), as Kremer (1 Cor, 312) would have it; nor does it refer to something specific (like idle gossip).... What, did the word of God originate with you? Lit. “Or, has … come forth from you?†This verse, with its double-rhetorical question, formulates Paul’s reaction to the attitude of Corinthian Christian men quoted in the two preceding verses. Paul’s phrase, ho logos tou theou, may be derived from LXX Jer 1:2, but he is using it in the sense of the “gospel,†the Christian message, as in 1 Thess 2:13; 2 Cor 2:17; 4:2; Rom 9:6. In the LXX the more common phrase is logos kyriou, “the word of the Lord,†a communication from Yahweh. Paul wants the Corinthian Christian men to realize that neither the gospel nor its implications for life have had a starting-point among them, and so they are in no way a law unto themselves. This interpretation of v. 36 seeks to give full force to the introductory ptc. ē, “or,†which Paul often writes when introducing rhetorical questions (e.g., 1:13; 6:2, 9, 19; 9:6; 11:22). Along with the RSV, I have translated it as “What!†in the lemma above. It marks an alternative, as it introduces the two questions that express Paul’s impatience with the attitude of such Corinthian men expressed in vv. 34–35." [Fitzmyer, J. A. (2008). Vol. 32: First Corinthians: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary. Anchor Yale Bible (533). New Haven; London: Yale University Press.]


Since this in particular hasn't really been discussed much by most in this thread, Im curious as to opinions on this.
Even the church I grew up in, who were against women preachers and believed women to be always under authority of men, didn't seem to believe that women should not speak in church and I can't remember them saying anything about it. In fact, I even asked the pastor questions a few times, after the service and once during Sunday school. Women and men alike were encouraged to share testimonies during the service. I think the pastor's wife and other women sometimes made comments during the sermons.
I don't think any women were ever called on to lead in prayer, though.

I do think the explanation offered in the quotes makes a lot of sense, though, and seems much less present here to be uncertain about. The explanation for 1st Tim. 2 was a little iffy and seems to require deeper study to affirm. This one I can look up in my own Bible and say it makes good sense.
 
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