WOMEN PASTORS

[Deavonreye]

When I was a christian, I was going to a church that would not allow females on the pastoral staff. Oddly, . . . towards the end of my time in that christian church, the [male] music pastor left and the church appointed a female music leader. Okay. . . . . .however she never really "preached". Just lead the choir. She was "leadership", but not amongst the pastoral staff.

What I find amazing in this thread is how a cultural norm of the day is strictly followed in churches today. What woman was ALLOWED the education to be a "pastor" back in the time the biblical letters were being written? Women were seen as property, so of course they had no say in that culture. Misogynistic cultures tend to keep the women in their place, so it would only stand to reason that a man would "never allow a woman to teach him".

Having said that [and for sake of argument that a person named Paul wrote the words], . . . who's to say that god gave Paul those words to write? If there was a logical reason [women not being learned at that time], does that automatically mean that it MUST be the case for all time? This is the problem with following the words of a book written thousands of years ago, in a completely different culture, . . . when times change.

There is nothing wrong with a woman preaching what she believes. Today, many women are quite knowledgeable and no longer kept under thumb by men. . . as it should be. MEN need to get off their high horse. MEN have an over exagerated sense of their own importance.

 

[reba]

Deavonreye,

Please forgive me if this sounds snarky it is not meant to be so, but you have made my point.

 

[Deavonreye]

Deavonreye,

Please forgive me if this sounds snarky it is not meant to be so, but you have made my point.

I like "snarky". ;)

 

[matt633]

Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak.

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant" (upon encountering a female name!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he had a male name, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by the historian, Josephus, in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.

@Alabaster
Is the Greek "Diakonos" not translated into our english as "Deacon"?

 

[mcgyver]

Well...allow me to throw some more gas on the fire, if I may...

First of all, as has been pointed out, the terms "overseer", "elder", "bishop", and "pastor" all refer to the same office within the church when used in that context...

But let me talk about "pastor" specifically (just to keep confusion away) for purposes of my "argument" here...

In Ephesians 4:11 we read: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.

Now there is a move within the modern church that says that we're all on equal footing with no one in authority over anyone else...this is a patently false dichotomy when taken in the light of scripture.

Pastoral authority exists...God does not appoint one without also giving one the authority to do the job. I believe that this is borne out both in the NT as well as the history of the early church.

So then the question is whether a woman can have that pastoral authority...or whether Paul's instructions are based on the social/cultural mores of the time...Good question!!!

Now if we accept that the bible is it's own best commentary, then I think that we can find the answer by looking at God's economy as pertains to marriage and the relationship between a woman and her husband. I believe that in this we are given a picture of Christ and His church.

Kinda follow along with me here....

Within a marriage, a woman is to be in submission to her husband (and yes...biblical submission is a whole 'nother thread. ).

We see that in Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

And in Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord

These passages can not be seen as simply a societal or cultural admonition, for the entire scripture paints the patriarchal system established by God since our ancestors were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Now, to tie all this together I'd like to give an illustration and ask a question:

Man and wife get ready for church on a Sunday morning. Arriving at the church, the wife gets into the pulpit and her husband sits in the pew.

Has God placed in abeyance the dynamic of submission? (For her husband is now expected to be in submission to her pastoral authority).

For those who insist on female pastors being acceptable, how do you work around this scriptural issue?

 

[matt633]

No, Phoebe was what was considered a deacon, which was a pastor in that day---'diakonos', or minister.

Is there any scripture or historic evidence that either proves or suggest that a deacon was a pastor in that day?

 

[matt633]

What woman was ALLOWED the education to be a "pastor" back in the time the biblical letters were being written?

When has education ever been a requirement of the gift of Pastor?

 

[mcgyver]

Is there any scripture or historic evidence that either proves or suggest that a deacon was a pastor in that day?

Nope...in fact Deacons were (and are) a completely different office within the church.

Diakonos literally is defined as: [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

1. one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

1. the servant of a king
2. a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
3. a waiter, one who serves food and drink

(from on-line Greek lexicon here: http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1249)

In Acts 6 we see that deacons were chosen for the specific task of the distribution of food...they were and still are servants of the church...but Pastor is the office appointed by God whereas Deacon is an office appointed by the church.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[matt633]

We see that in Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

And in Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord

These passages can not be seen as simply a societal or cultural admonition, for the entire scripture paints the patriarchal system established by God since our ancestors were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Now, to tie all this together I'd like to give an illustration and ask a question:

Man and wife get ready for church on a Sunday morning. Arriving at the church, the wife gets into the pulpit and her husband sits in the pew.

Has God placed in abeyance the dynamic of submission? (For her husband is now expected to be in submission to her pastoral authority).

For those who insist on female pastors being acceptable, how do you work around this scriptural issue?

What if the Husband is also a Pastor of the church but just is not behind the pulpit at that moment?

 

[elijah23]

Your thoughts on women who pastor a congregation?


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

If my pastor is a righteous person, I am pleased. I don’t care if it is a man or woman.

 

[matt633]

Nope...in fact Deacons were (and are) a completely different office within the church.

Diakonos literally is defined as: [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]


[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]1. one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

1. the servant of a king
2. a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
3. a waiter, one who serves food and drink

(from on-line Greek lexicon here: Diakonos - Greek Lexicon)[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]In Acts 6 we see that deacons were chosen for the specific task of the distribution of food...they were and still are servants of the church...but Pastor is the office appointed by God whereas Deacon is an office appointed by the church. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Thanks McGuyver, thats a good clear definition of Deacon or Diakonos. With that said, If Pastor is a gift or appointment by Christ to the Church and the Church itself elects overseers, elders, Bishops how does Pastor even fit into this argument? Why are we using the term pastor in this argument when Paul was referring to Overseers, Elders, Bishops, and Deacon's in his guide lines. Are there any scriptures suggesting guidelines for Pastor? Ive only seen it mentioned in Ephesians as a gift or perhaps office given by Christ to the Church.

 

[mcgyver]

What if the Husband is also a Pastor of the church but just is not behind the pulpit at that moment?

Then IMO they are outside the NT model...the concept of a husband and wife co-pastoring a church is a 20th century phenomonon...and I don't see support for it anywhere in the scripture...

 

[mcgyver]

Thanks McGuyver, thats a good clear definition of Deacon or Diakonos. With that said, If Pastor is a gift or appointment by Christ to the Church and the Church itself elects overseers, elders, Bishops how does Pastor even fit into this argument? Why are we using the term pastor in this argument when Paul was referring to Overseers, Elders, Bishops, and Deacon's in his guide lines. Are there any scriptures suggesting guidelines for Pastor? Ive only seen it mentioned in Ephesians as a gift or perhaps office given by Christ to the Church.

Just to keep confusion to a minimum...

The terms "bishop", "overseer", etc., all speak to the same office: Pastor.

In turn, "Pastor" is a transliteration of "ποιμενας" which literally means "shepherd".

 

[mcgyver]

Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak.

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant" (upon encountering a female name!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he had a male name, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, and a leader. This word was used by the historian, Josephus, in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with your conclusion here.

No where in scripture is "diakonos" used interchangeably with "poimen" (pastor), "episkopos" (overseer), or "presbuteros" (elder, which may also denote elder women).

Also, "prostasis" here may variously be translated as: Patroness, helper, succourer...in the context of the passage, having already identified her as a servant of the church in Cenchrea and "having helped many"...there is no indication of pastoral leadership found anywhere here....

 

[Alabaster]

Keep in mind that when the N.T. was written the meaning of diakonos was only minister/servant. Where ever the translators have used “deacon†that is an interpretive transliteration into our modern word, fitting the modern word that did not exist 2000 yrs. Ago.
Here are a few (too many to print all) of the places where the word diakonos is used:

Matt. 20:26
26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

Mk 10:43
43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.

Ro. 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

Rom. 13:4
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Rom. 16:1
1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

1 Cor. 3:5
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

2 Cor. 6:4
4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Phil. 1:1
1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants (doulos) of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons/ministers:

Eph. 6:21
21 But that you also may know my affairs and how I am doing, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you;

Col. 4:7
7 Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me.

Gal. 2:17
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

2 cor. 3:5-6
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Col. 1:23-25
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

We must go by the Greek word, not the English translations especially the transliterated modern word “deaconâ€. All the Scriptures (and then some) that I posted are from the SAME Greek word, diakonos. The is the word used in Rom. 16:1 describing Phoebe. At that time it simply meant minister and or servant and as the classical Greek expert said: also attendant or official such as “ministerâ€. Same Greek word, same meaning.

The word we use today with it’s meaning of an order of deacons and deaconesses did not really come into being in English until the third century.

 

[Alabaster]

1. Phoebe was entrusted with the delivery of Paul's epistle. this meant that she did more that postal delivery. She likely read the epistle to them, answered any questions, explained in detail Paul's intent.

2. Paul admonished them to receive her in a manner worthy, and to assist her in whatever business she has need of you. Unless you thought that meant handing her a broom! More like he is telling them to treat her with honor, be supportive, and assist her in the ministry of the gospel.

3. She is praised as a prostatis of many.

Phoebe is not just a deacon---she is a prostatis,
“presiding officer”, “leader and protector”. The term
prostatis referred to a person of the front-rank, the
chief of a body of people; in general, a ruler,
someone who stands in front of the people and protects
them. It encompassed the giving of financial or
material aid. It was also a term which referred to
those who gave protection to people who did not have
civil rights.

The 4th century woman Tullia, a Chief City Official,
was described as prostasis. She was a woman of wealth,
and was said to have spent her wealth bountifully on
the city.[6] Far earlier, in Macedonia, prostates was
the name for the senior civic official beside the
king.[7] In Macedonia after Alexander’s death,
Krateros was entrusted with the prostasis of the
kingship while the king, Arridos, was abroad.[8] When
the office of prostates eventually lapsed, the high
honors associated with it lived on in the use of its
title, prostasia.[9] This was demonstrated as late as
1985. The term prostasis was status-laden and denoted
position / office.




But now lets look just a little at these English words we are using seeking to explain the meaning of prostatis. I have a 1915 dictionary. I consider patron to be the best translation of the word today.

According to Roman Law a patron was a master/mistress who had freed his slaves but still retained some rights over them.

In Roman history a patron was a person of distinction under whose protection a client placed himself., including a defender or pleader in court; an advocate.

In Greek history a patron was one who became the protector and surety or voucher for a resident alien

In Ecclesiastical Law a patron was one who has the right of presentation to his duty as advocate and defender.

A patron was also one who protects, supports, defends; a guardian; a tutelary, sometimes like a dean of a college.

To further explain, patronage in Ecclesiastical Law was the acts of a patron in defense of the rights of the church in a benefice carrying with it the right of presentation, guardianship; tutelary care; special support or aid; protection; defense.

So you see, Phoebe was likely a very well-skilled charismatic minister (diakonos) in the sense of official position in the church of Cenchrea. So, reference was of one who had long been serving/ministering in an officially recognized position - as was Phoebe.

 

[matt633]

Just to keep confusion to a minimum...

The terms "bishop", "overseer", etc., all speak to the same office: Pastor.

In turn, "Pastor" is a transliteration of "ποιμενας" which literally means "shepherd".

I understand where your coming from. However, shouldn't it be said that,
The terms "bishop", "overseer", etc., all speak to the same "service" (as opposed to "office"): Pastor or Shepard?

I ask this because I'd like to find scripture pointing to an actual "office" of Pastor as I see it as a service that one in the elected "office" of Elder, Bishop, performs.

For instance, I see where most people use the term "preacher" in place of an office when descriping Pastors and Teachers where I would consider preaching (encouraging, point driving) a gift not limited to and not always used by Pastors, Bishops, ect. just as the gift of teaching (conveying doctrine) and administration (managing). I see "service" or "office" of Pastors and Teachers as a Shepard (or Father) protecting, and leading his flock (or children) to maturity to fulfill their purpose.

Lately I've been seeing use of the term "preacher" blur the actual service of one who is elected to the "office" of pastor or bishop. For example, there is a church where the assistant pastor is a woman who by all accounts is a gifted preacher. I was told that many members of the church want her to be the new senior pastor because of her gift of preaching. It just sort of bothered me that people would want to displace a proven pastor and gifted administrator and preaching for a more talented preacher.

I apologize for going off topic a little. This is all just for discussion and educational purposes of course.

 

[mcgyver]

Keep in mind that when the N.T. was written the meaning of diakonos was only minister/servant. Where ever the translators have used “deacon” that is an interpretive transliteration into our modern word, fitting the modern word that did not exist 2000 yrs. Ago.
Here are a few (too many to print all) of the places where the word diakonos is used:

Agreed...and maybe I'm missing your point here?

I'd also mention that there are three commonly used words in Koine Greek for "Servant"...diakonos, doulos, and therapon.

The difference is that diakonos represents a servant in his activity for the work, whereas doulos and therapon express a servant in relationship to an individual. Either servile (doulos) or voluntary (therapon).

For example, the servants at given function (whether slave or free) would be diakonoi...whereas the apostles considered themselves douloi in relationship to Christ.

Either way, I don't see how (contextually) one may infer that Phoebe was appointed as a pastor from the text...

 

[Alabaster]

Found something more about Phoebe and the word prostatis in my study notes.

There is reference on “succourer†in the Notes on Translation of the New Testament by Hendrickson that says ‘prostatis’ should be more properly translated as ‘patroness’ or ‘protectress’, a “more honorable titleâ€. . He shows references in Dion.Hal., Suidas, Alsner, Lucian that suggest that is a more proper translation. A patron(ess) is often one who leads/governs a school such as a dean/guardian of a college. The verb form 'proistemi' is also used in 1 Tim. 5:17 for elders who 'preside' well, and at Romans 12:8 and 1 Thessalonians 5:12. The closest literal meaning is 'to stand-before' hence to lead (indicating care and diligence) and implies guardianship, leadership. Thus using an unusual word, Paul proclaims her an unusual leader EVEN referencing her leadership toward himself. Hardly small words or small praises!

 

[cleanfreak]

Keep in mind that when the N.T. was written the meaning of diakonos was only minister/servant. Where ever the translators have used “deacon†that is an interpretive transliteration into our modern word, fitting the modern word that did not exist 2000 yrs. Ago.
Here are a few (too many to print all) of the places where the word diakonos is used:

Matt. 20:26
26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.

Mk 10:43
43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant.

Ro. 15:8
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,

Rom. 13:4
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Rom. 16:1
1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,

1 Cor. 3:5
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

2 Cor. 6:4
4 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Phil. 1:1
1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants (doulos) of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons/ministers:

Eph. 6:21
21 But that you also may know my affairs and how I am doing, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will make all things known to you;

Col. 4:7
7 Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me.

Gal. 2:17
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!

2 cor. 3:5-6
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Col. 1:23-25
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

We must go by the Greek word, not the English translations especially the transliterated modern word “deaconâ€. All the Scriptures (and then some) that I posted are from the SAME Greek word, diakonos. The is the word used in Rom. 16:1 describing Phoebe. At that time it simply meant minister and or servant and as the classical Greek expert said: also attendant or official such as “ministerâ€. Same Greek word, same meaning.

The word we use today with it’s meaning of an order of deacons and deaconesses did not really come into being in English until the third century.

I noticed you did not quote any scriptures from 1 Timothy chapter 3. Why not?

1 Timothy chapter 3 clearly states what the requirements for the office of Diakonos is and Phoebe clearly does not meet those requirements.