WOMEN PASTORS

[mcgyver]

I understand where your coming from. However, shouldn't it be said that,
The terms "bishop", "overseer", etc., all speak to the same "service" (as opposed to "office"): Pastor or Shepard?

I ask this because I'd like to find scripture pointing to an actual "office" of Pastor as I see it as a service that one in the elected "office" of Elder, Bishop, performs.

For instance, I see where most people use the term "preacher" in place of an office when descriping Pastors and Teachers where I would consider preaching (encouraging, point driving) a gift not limited to and not always used by Pastors, Bishops, ect. just as the gift of teaching (conveying doctrine) and administration (managing). I see "service" or "office" of Pastors and Teachers as a Shepard (or Father) protecting, and leading his flock (or children) to maturity to fulfill their purpose.

Lately I've been seeing use of the term "preacher" blur the actual service of one who is elected to the "office" of pastor or bishop. For example, there is a church where the assistant pastor is a woman who by all accounts is a gifted preacher. I was told that many members of the church want her to be the new senior pastor because of her gift of preaching. It just sort of bothered me that people would want to displace a proven pastor and gifted administrator and preaching for a more talented preacher.

I apologize for going off topic a little. This is all just for discussion and educational purposes of course.

Not off topic at all!

We have a tendency to use terms interchangeably when we really shouldn't...

 

[Alabaster]

I noticed you did not quote any scriptures from 1 Timothy chapter 3. Why not?

1 Timothy chapter 3 clearly states what the requirements for the office of Diakonos is and Phoebe clearly does not meet those requirements.

Trying to be a smartypants, eh? Wrong.

In 1 Timothy 3, the word has been translated in English as deacon, but the Greek word was not diakonos. It was the office of episkopos, as in an overseer or superintendent or bishop---someone who has an office over churches and their pastors.

Phoebe was not episkopos. She was diakonos.

 

[Alabaster]

When has education ever been a requirement of the gift of Pastor?

Of course we know it isn't. Whom God calls, He also equips! Praise God!

 

[Alabaster]

@Alabaster
Is the Greek "Diakonos" not translated into our english as "Deacon"?

What was meant then and what deacon means now is not the same. We must be careful not to assign 21st century meanings to words that were used in the 1st century churches.

 

[mcgyver]

1. Phoebe was entrusted with the delivery of Paul's epistle. this meant that she did more that postal delivery. She likely read the epistle to them, answered any questions, explained in detail Paul's intent.

2. Paul admonished them to receive her in a manner worthy, and to assist her in whatever business she has need of you. Unless you thought that meant handing her a broom! More like he is telling them to treat her with honor, be supportive, and assist her in the ministry of the gospel.

3. She is praised as a prostatis of many.

Phoebe is not just a deacon---she is a prostatis,
“presiding officer”, “leader and protector”. The term
prostatis referred to a person of the front-rank, the
chief of a body of people; in general, a ruler,
someone who stands in front of the people and protects
them. It encompassed the giving of financial or
material aid. It was also a term which referred to
those who gave protection to people who did not have
civil rights.

The 4th century woman Tullia, a Chief City Official,
was described as prostasis. She was a woman of wealth,
and was said to have spent her wealth bountifully on
the city.[6] Far earlier, in Macedonia, prostates was
the name for the senior civic official beside the
king.[7] In Macedonia after Alexander’s death,
Krateros was entrusted with the prostasis of the
kingship while the king, Arridos, was abroad.[8] When
the office of prostates eventually lapsed, the high
honors associated with it lived on in the use of its
title, prostasia.[9] This was demonstrated as late as
1985. The term prostasis was status-laden and denoted
position / office.




But now lets look just a little at these English words we are using seeking to explain the meaning of prostatis. I have a 1915 dictionary. I consider patron to be the best translation of the word today.

According to Roman Law a patron was a master/mistress who had freed his slaves but still retained some rights over them.

In Roman history a patron was a person of distinction under whose protection a client placed himself., including a defender or pleader in court; an advocate.

In Greek history a patron was one who became the protector and surety or voucher for a resident alien

In Ecclesiastical Law a patron was one who has the right of presentation to his duty as advocate and defender.

A patron was also one who protects, supports, defends; a guardian; a tutelary, sometimes like a dean of a college.

To further explain, patronage in Ecclesiastical Law was the acts of a patron in defense of the rights of the church in a benefice carrying with it the right of presentation, guardianship; tutelary care; special support or aid; protection; defense.

No argument that she was a great lady who garnered great respect!

So you see, Phoebe was likely a very well-skilled charismatic minister (diakonos) in the sense of official position in the church of Cenchrea. So, reference was of one who had long been serving/ministering in an officially recognized position - as was Phoebe.

Although this would not be outside the realm of possibility, given the Koine meaning of Diakonos, I still can't see how a case can be made for Phoebe being a pastor from the passage. If she was in fact ministering in the manner of a pastor, why not use the word hierourgeo and avoid all the confusion?

 

[cleanfreak]

Trying to be a smartypants, eh? Wrong.

In 1 Timothy 3, the word has been translated in English as deacon, but the Greek word was not diakonos. It was the office of episkopos, as in an overseer or superintendent or bishop---someone who has an office over churches and their pastors.

Phoebe was not episkopos. She was diakonos.

Wrong?...methinks you are confused.

I never mentioned the English word "deacon" in my previous post. I clearly stated 'Diakonos'.

Diakonos is used in 1 Timothy 3:8-13 and the requirements for this office are clearly listed. Phoebe does not meet these requirements.

Not a 'Diakonos' you say, but an "episkopos" ? The requirements for this office is clearly listed in 1 Timothy 3:2-7. Phoebe clearly does not meet these requirements either.

Oh yeah, when Paul announces Phoebe in Romans 16:1 he uses 'diakonos'.
But it really does not matter as she does not fit the requirements of either office.

What say you?

 

[mcgyver]

@ Alabaster

Would you comment on post #45?

Interested as to your reply, Thanks!

 

[matt633]

What was meant then and what deacon means now is not the same. We must be careful not to assign 21st century meanings to words that were used in the 1st century churches.

LOL I just saw your post above. My question is when was episkopos changed to Deacon in timothy? Also, is there a site or book I can aquire to see the scriptures in greek and monitor the translations and transliterations?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Women were in fact directed to be pastors, just not what we define as a pastor in today's religious climate. The fact is that such a position as the modern pastor did not exist in scripture, but I digress. Back to the issue of women as biblical pastors, which means women as shephards, leaders, and excellent examples. Let's look at what Paul wrote to Titus on the subject.

Old men (elders) should be free from excesses, and they should be serious, levelheaded, and healthy in their faith, love, and endurance. <SUP>3</SUP> Old women (elders) should behave as though they had just entered a holy place. They shouldn’t be slanderers or alcoholics, but teachers of things that are good. <SUP>4</SUP> They should encourage younger women....

Women were exhorted to be teachers and encouragers in things that are good. The only prohibition was that women were not allowed to place themselves or be placed in a position of authority over a man in matters of the christian community.
Our problem today is that we have accepted the notion that a pastor, a word that really is derived from shephard should be not just a leader, but an authority figure when no such support for that idea is found in the original scriptures.

 

[mcgyver]

Oh yeah, when Paul announces Phoebe in Romans 16:1 he uses 'diakonos'. But it really does not matter as she does no fit the requirements of either.

What say you?

Just a quick aside here: Diakonos can either be a noun expressing the office (i.e. deacon), or a verb expressing a servant working (Bill was ministering to Sam).

 

[mcgyver]

Women were in fact directed to be pastors, just not what we define as a pastor in today's religious climate. The fact is that such a position as the modern pastor did not exist in scripture, but I digress. Back to the issue of women as biblical pastors, which means women as shephards, leaders, and excellent examples. Let's look at what Paul wrote to Titus on the subject.

Women were exhorted to be teachers and encouragers in things that are good. The only prohibition was that women were not allowed to place themselves or be placed in a position of authority over a man in matters of the christian community.
Our problem today is that we have accepted the notion that a pastor, a word that really is derived from shephard should be not just a leader, but an authority figure when no such support for that idea is found in the original scriptures.

Does not God in Ephesians 4:11 establish the office of pastor by His own hand? Did not the Apostles have authority? The Prophets (refer to the didache), etc., have authority?

If God appoints, then He also gives the authority to do the job...every time.

 

[cleanfreak]

Just a quick aside here: Diakonos can either be a noun expressing the office (i.e. deacon), or a verb expressing a servant working (Bill was ministering to Sam).

+1
Absolutely! .....that is what Paul was doing in Romans 16:1. Thank you for that.:yes

 

[Alabaster]

Now, to tie all this together I'd like to give an illustration and ask a question:

Man and wife get ready for church on a Sunday morning. Arriving at the church, the wife gets into the pulpit and her husband sits in the pew.

Has God placed in abeyance the dynamic of submission? (For her husband is now expected to be in submission to her pastoral authority).

For those who insist on female pastors being acceptable, how do you work around this scriptural issue?

This happens in my church sometimes as out of eight pastors, four are women who are married to their pastor husbands and each one of them is a great, God-gifted teacher, too.

God's model for the family is not the same as the model for leadership in the house of God. When we come to the family of God, he gifts each individual, and the Holy Spirit doesn't check His gifts at the door when He encounters a female! This is not a plumbing issue! Women are not excluded from the gifts of the Spirit--ever.

God gifts women with the exact array of gifts that He blesses men with and He expects them to use them, and He also expects Godly husbands to not stand in His way of using these women, also! That would be the sin of bigotry---within a man's own home, and most definitely there is no place for it in the body of Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

LOL I just saw your post above. My question is when was episkopos changed to Deacon in timothy? Also, is there a site or book I can aquire to see the scriptures in greek and monitor the translations and transliterations?

I don't know---probably with King James.

 

[Alabaster]

Wrong?...methinks you are confused.

I never mentioned the English word "deacon" in my previous post. I clearly stated 'Diakonos'.

Diakonos is used in 1 Timothy 3:8-13 and the requirements for this office are clearly listed. Phoebe does not meet these requirements.

Not a 'Diakonos' you say, but an "episkopos" ? The requirements for this office is clearly listed in 1 Timothy 3:2-7. Phoebe clearly does not meet these requirements either.

Oh yeah, when Paul announces Phoebe in Romans 16:1 he uses 'diakonos'.
But it really does not matter as she does not fit the requirements of either office.

What say you?

What don't you understand? She was diakonos, and fit that position as servant/leader as does anyone who serves the Lord in the Church. She was also considered by Paul as prostatis, which means she was in a position of authority, offering help and succour to those in need.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Deacons

Since we're talking about this subject, I guess I'll join in.

1 Tim 2
<SUP>8</SUP> Servants First Timothy [in the congregation] should also be serious, not deceitful, not excessive drinkers, and not looking for easy money, <SUP>9</SUP> but holding the mystery of the faith with a clean conscience. <SUP>10</SUP> Let them prove themselves first; then if they do well, allow them to serve.
<SUP>11</SUP> Women should likewise be serious and not slanderous, but moderate in their habits and faithful in everything.
<SUP>12</SUP> Servants should only have one wife and be taking the lead over their households and children. <SUP>13</SUP> And thereafter, those who serve well will gain a good position in the faith and have opportunities to speak boldly, through the Anointed Jesus.

So all of a sudden after talking about servants/deacons within the congregation Paul interjects his "women should likewise" comment in verse 11. Interesting. Maybe this instruction was inclusive of women and Paul in the following verse was led t give a caveat to the men who wished to serve the congregation of what would be required specifically of THEM. Maybe verse 10 includes both sexes and the following verse lists what those who aspire to serve must do to PROVE themselves as verse 10 tells us.

 

[cleanfreak]

What don't you understand? She was diakonos, and fit that position as servant/leader as does anyone who serves the Lord in the Church.

^^^^This I agree with.

I understand clearly she does not fit the requirements of the office of a 'Diakonos'.

There reason for me posting this over and over is some of the post here refer to her as a deacon or 'deaconess' and that she is able to hold this 'office'. This same office stated in 1 Timothy chapter 3 that she does not meet the requirements of.

This is all I was trying to clarify.


I will need to look up where Paul uses "prostatis" to describe her. I have never heard of this or studied thereof so I am not able to comment on this.

 

[mcgyver]

This happens in my church sometimes as out of eight pastors, four are women who are married to their pastor husbands and each one of them is a great, God-gifted teacher, too.

God's model for the family is not the same as the model for leadership in the house of God. When we come to the family of God, he gifts each individual, and the Holy Spirit doesn't check His gifts at the door when He encounters a female! This is not a plumbing issue! Women are not excluded from the gifts of the Spirit--ever.

God gifts women with the exact array of gifts that He blesses men with and He expects them to use them, and He also expects Godly husbands to not stand in His way of using these women, also! That would be the sin of bigotry---within a man's own home, and most definitely there is no place for it in the body of Christ.

Thank you for your answer...but if this is the case, then why does Paul by inspiration of the Spirit draw a direct correlation between the marital relationship and the church?

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. (Eph 5:22-23)

 

[Alabaster]

^^^^This I agree with.

I understand clearly she does not fit the requirements of the office of a 'Diakonos'.

Yes, she did.

There reason for me posting this over and over is some of the post here refer to her as a deacon or 'deaconess' and that she is able to hold this 'office'. This same office stated in 1 Timothy chapter 3 that she does not meet the requirements of.

This is all I was trying to clarify.

I don't see that. She, like all women in leadership in the churches were expected, like the men, to meet the same standards of Godly character and behaviour.

I will need to look up where Paul uses "prostatis" to describe her. I have never heard of this or studied thereof so I am not able to comment on this.

Romans 16:2. It is an interesting study.

 

[cleanfreak]

Yes, she did.



I don't see that. She, like all women in leadership in the churches were expected, like the men, to meet the same standards of Godly character and behaviour.



Romans 16:2. It is an interesting study.

Please expound on 1 Timothy 3:11-12. Phoebe does not meet these requirements.