Works? Hogwash

[Heidi]

"For it is by Grace you have been saved (notice the past tense) through faith-and this, not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."

It's all in there. Every single thing concerning salvation. Everything. If you beleve it, you've been saved. If you don't you haven't been. End of story.

You forgot to read the next verse, sister...

Regards

I never forget to read the bible. Here's the next verse and I guarantee you it will not contradict the previous verses as you seem to think it does: "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

So you have to put those verses together instead of make them contradict themselves and what do you get? I already know. But I want to see if you can for once, make scripture agree instead of make God contradict himself. So let's see if you can come reconcile those verses together.

Actually, I don't want to hear you make scripture contradict itself any more so I'll reconcile those verses together for you; We have been saved by Grace through faith which does not come from ourselves because it's a gift from God. We are not saved by works so that we cannot boast. But because we are saved by Grace and have faith, then for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. Works come from faith, not from ourselves. That puts the 2 together instead of makes them contradict themselves, friend. You should try doing that some time and then you'll begin to understand God's Word. ;-)

And the works that Paul is talking about are synonymous with deeds, or God's workmanship. So whenever you are tempted to take credit for your deeds, that comes from the sin of pride which is from Satan and therefore unscriptural.

But interpretations that come from humiity, which is a fruit of the Spirit are scriptural because they come from the Holy Spirit. And the humility from the Spirit does not boast. It gives God all of the credit for our faith, gracem salvation and works. So that is the correct interpretation.

 

[Guest]

Not sure I totally agree, because love takes sacrifice, a dying to oneself. Anyone who thinks dying to oneself is easy and doesn't take any effort is clueless on the whole idea. It is NOT easy to love our enemies, no matter what rhetoric you put forth. I am speaking practically. You claim to have the Spirit within you. Do you agree with what I am saying? Even with the Spirit, these things are not easy.

With practice, it is 'easy'. Why do you try to make it hard?

Secondly, no one can snatch us out of His hands. But NOWHERE does the Bible say WE cannot remove ourselves from His hands... We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit and return to the vomit of our former lives. We CAN disinherit ourselves from the freely-given gift of salvation.

Verse please.

 

[francisdesales]

So you have to put those verses together instead of make them contradict themselves and what do you get? I already know. But I want to see if you can for once, make scripture agree instead of make God contradict himself. So let's see if you can come reconcile those verses together.

Actually, I don't want to hear you make scripture contradict itself any more so I'll reconcile those verses together for you;

Oh boy, if this isn't the attitude of a self-righteous individual, I don't know what is. I am not saying God's Word contradicts, but rather, your interpretation of it...

We have been saved by Grace through faith which does not come from ourselves because it's a gift from God. We are not saved by works so that we cannot boast. But because we are saved by Grace and have faith, then for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. Works come from faith, not from ourselves. That puts the 2 together instead of makes them contradict themselves, friend. You should try doing that some time and then you'll begin to understand God's Word. ;-)

Sister, if you read the verses again, it says that FAITH AND WORKS come from God! It doesn't say that faith comes from us, or that works come from us alone. It doesn't say that faith generates works, either. It says God provides the graces to man for BOTH. Thus, we are saved by faith AND works. You make an artificial separation between what God gives just to try desperately to keep your "faith alone" intact.

And the works that Paul is talking about are synonymous with deeds, or God's workmanship. So whenever you are tempted to take credit for your deeds, that comes from the sin of pride which is from Satan and therefore unscriptural.

Paul took lots of credit for what he did - but he also attributed God's graces to it, as well. It is not an either/or situation. God moves my will and He makes me righteous. Everything I do is thus done by myself AND Christ.

But interpretations that come from humiity, which is a fruit of the Spirit are scriptural because they come from the Holy Spirit. And the humility from the Spirit does not boast. It gives God all of the credit for our faith, gracem salvation and works. So that is the correct interpretation.

You need to work on the humility part...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

With practice, it is 'easy'. Why do you try to make it hard?

With practice.... Are you familiar with what that entails??? Ever play sports? Do you have any bad habits???

Virtue is not something that comes without sacrifice and suffering.

Secondly, no one can snatch us out of His hands. But NOWHERE does the Bible say WE cannot remove ourselves from His hands... We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit and return to the vomit of our former lives. We CAN disinherit ourselves from the freely-given gift of salvation.

Verse please.

1 Cor 6:9-10, Heb 10:26-27, just in this very thread. I can go on and on, but ONE verse is enough to show the idea that we cannot disinherit ourselves is false.

Regards

 

[Veritas]

I agree works alone are hogwash, and that is not what justifies us before God.

But we are justified before man by works.

...and faith without works is dead James 2:20.

but, to comment on OSAS, the verses that are most clear to me that it is possible we can push God away if we really want to are:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27 as francis pointed out...

and

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[francisdesales]

I agree works alone are hogwash, and that is not what justifies us before God.

But we are justified before man by works.

...and faith without works is dead James 2:20.

Craig,

Do you believe that man is also justified before God by works? I believe we are because the example James uses is Abraham - justified by works - and referring to an incident where NO ONE saw what Abraham did BUT God! He was justified in God's eyes, because no other man saw what He did.

Nothing else matters but faith working in love.

I see Scripture considers the two together as peanut butter and jelly! To hold faith above works is unnecessary, because they BOTH come from God.

Joe

 

[Guest]

I agree works alone are hogwash, and that is not what justifies us before God.

But we are justified before man by works.

...and faith without works is dead James 2:20.

but, to comment on OSAS, the verses that are most clear to me that it is possible we can push God away if we really want to are:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27 as francis pointed out...

and

You are assuming that 'received the knowledge' is referring to someone who believes in it.

This verse is commenting on those who have 'heard' but reject what they hear.

In other words - for the unbeliever - what sacrifice is left for their sins after they have heard the 'knowledge of truth'? There is nothing left for them.

 

[Guest]

With practice, it is 'easy'. Why do you try to make it hard?

With practice.... Are you familiar with what that entails??? Ever play sports? Do you have any bad habits???

Virtue is not something that comes without sacrifice and suffering.

I am not sure I understand your point. The Sermon on the Mount is for all believers to practice and to live out. It might not be easy, but it doesn't have to be hard either. The Mount Sermon is not for a select few to live out cloistered from other believers. The Sermon is meant for all believers to live out in community with one another.

The more one forgivess, the easier it is to forgive.
The more one gives, the easier it is to give
The more one prays, the easier it is to pray

etc, etc.

The Christian life was not meant to be a burden.

 

[Drew]

Ephesians 2;8-9 says it all:

"For it is by Grace you have been saved (notice the past tense) through faith-and this, not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."

It's all in there. Every single thing concerning salvation. Everything. If you beleve it, you've been saved. If you don't you haven't been. End of story.

This is, of course, not the end of the story at all. I propose that the "works" in this famous text are not "works of moral self-effort", but are instead those works that specifically demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - the sabbath law, the dietary laws, circumcision, etc. If this argument works, it deflates the use of Eph 2:8-9 as a proof-text that Paul is denying any connection between "good works" (in the normal everyday sense of obeying the teachings of God) and salvation.

Here we go.

Consider the verses 11-13

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ"

The use of "therefore" in the above passage explicitly connects to verses 8-10. The problem of "works" is not the problem of human achievement but the problem of ethnic discrimination. Gentiles have now been included in God's people because Christ (extracted from verses 14-16 with my comments added):

.... has made the two {***Jew and Gentile} one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two {***Jews and Gentiles}, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them {***Jew and Gentile} to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."

I think that this is a compelling argument that the word "works" in verse 9 does not mean what it is often taken to mean - namely, moral effort. So Paul is not denying the connection of "good works" to salvation at all - he is denying the connection of Jewish ethnicity to salvation. This theme is strongly present in Romans as well, although many references in Romans to "works" are also, I would claim, misunderstood.

 

[Heidi]

Ephesians 2;8-9 says it all:

"For it is by Grace you have been saved (notice the past tense) through faith-and this, not from yourselves-it is the gift from God not by works so that no one can boast."

It's all in there. Every single thing concerning salvation. Everything. If you beleve it, you've been saved. If you don't you haven't been. End of story.

This is, of course, not the end of the story at all. I propose that the "works" in this famous text are not "works of moral self-effort", but are instead those works that specifically demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - the sabbath law, the dietary laws, circumcision, etc. If this argument works, it deflates the use of Eph 2:8-9 as a proof-text that Paul is denying any connection between "good works" (in the normal everyday sense of obeying the teachings of God) and salvation.

Here we go.

Consider the verses 11-13

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ"

The use of "therefore" in the above passage explicitly connects to verses 8-10. The problem of "works" is not the problem of human achievement but the problem of ethnic discrimination. Gentiles have now been included in God's people because Christ (extracted from verses 14-16 with my comments added):

.... has made the two {***Jew and Gentile} one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two {***Jews and Gentiles}, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them {***Jew and Gentile} to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility."

I think that this is a compelling argument that the word "works" in verse 9 does not mean what it is often taken to mean - namely, moral effort. So Paul is not denying the connection of "good works" to salvation at all - he is denying the connection of Jewish ethnicity to salvation. This theme is strongly present in Romans as well, although many references in Romans to "works" are also, I would claim, misunderstood.

"Ethnic discrimination?" :o I'm afraid your imagination is working overtime, friend. Paul tells us not to quibble about the law. So I won't. Ephesians 2;8-9 says it all. Those who don't see how much there is in every single word in that phrase need to ponder it a lot more closely and they'll see that that verse indeed says it all.

 

[Drew]

"Ethnic discrimination?" :o I'm afraid your imagination is working overtime, friend. Paul tells us not to quibble about the law. So I won't. Ephesians 2;8-9 says it all. Those who don't see how much there is in every single word in that phrase need to ponder it a lot more closely and they'll see that that verse indeed says it all.

It is interesting, and I suggest damaging to your position, that you respond to a substantial argument with a mere claim that it is the product of "my imagination". There was actual content in my argument - actual scriptural reasons as to why the "works" in Eph 2:9 are specifically the works that demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - not "good works" generally.

You need to respond to my argument - you cannot (legitimately anyway) simply claim that the word "works" means "good works in the general sense" in Eph 2:9. My argument, if uncountered demonstrates that this not the case. It is not legitimate to simply claim that the meaning of Eph 2:8-9 is what you deem it to be. The objective reader will notice that my argument is not being responded to - and he will wonder why not.

And besides, a little knowledge of history suggests that Paul was very much concerned with issues of ethnic (Jew vs Gentile) discrimination. Romans, to a large extent, was written precisely to get the Gentile Christians in Rome to get along with the Jewish ones.

 

[francisdesales]

Might I suggest there will be Catholics experienceing the gnashing of teeth as well.

You may...

However, I want to point on one part of your response to mine to illustrate my frustrations with you:

I frustrate you? Oh, I guess the feeling is mutual, then!

The Christian Life is a Balance of Faith and Works. It is the Faith that allows us to do the Works. Neither one should be out of balance - extremes on both sides are in error.

From my quote, where did I say "our faith"?

My original post of this was directed at Heidi, not your comment in this thread. She expounds a different theology than you are here. I thought I apologized for that confusion already. If you didn't read that, I apologize again.

Regards

 

[Guest]

francis - it is all very confussing who is responding to who and what post and when and where, etc etc. :crazyeyes: :infinity:

You responded to my post and said something out it not being "our faith" - my original comments never said "our faith". Just wanted to clarify.

Lastly - "Sitting down" is not only a place of honor, but designates that the work is done. In this case, there is not more sacrifice, it is 'finished'. No more sacrfices are needed to the forgiveness of sins.

It would be like saying, case closed, end of discussion, fini. Period. It is over - no more need to sacrifice.

 

[francisdesales]

Lastly - "Sitting down" is not only a place of honor, but designates that the work is done. In this case, there is not more sacrifice, it is 'finished'. No more sacrfices are needed to the forgiveness of sins.

The work is NOT done. Proof? Why does Christ give the Apostles the power to forgive sins AFTER the Resurrection has taken place??? Apparently, all future sins are not forgiven without conditon.

His work on Calvary is only PART of what the Logos does/did. He does what He sees the Father doing - still. Sure, no more sacrifice is necessary. However, the Sacred Scriptures tell us that Christ CONTINUES to work, doing other things than dying again...

He intercedes for us.
He is present when we pray together.
He answers our prayers.
He sends His Spirit to the Church, both corporately and individually to its members.
He is with the Church for all time.

Thus, He continues to draw ALL things to the Father. That is work. Thus the idea that Jesus work is done is short-sighted.

"Sitting at the right hand of the Father" is OBVIOUSLY a metaphor, a position of honor

-"Sitting" is anthropomorphic - God doesn't sit on a throne, He is a spiritual being.
-Sitting doesn't mean that there is nothing else to work at. I am sitting here typing, but I have to go to RCIA soon, and then to my work tomorrow.

Jesus does not re-sacrifice Himself. THAT is done. But He DOES present that one sacrifice to the Father constantly (as Malachi prophesied), to appease the wrath of the Father that His justice demands. WE continue to sin and thus, the Father's wrath needs to be appeased. But Christ's one-time sacrifice can be re-presented to the Father again and again for OUR sins, not just the sins of the Apostolic Age.

Regards

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Joe and Alone,

First, sorry if I don't respond in a timely manner, if you respond to this post cause I don't get much time on here anymore. But anyway, this thought had entered my mind as I was reading this.

I believe that Christ said that his father was always working, and thus, it was good for him (Jesus) to heal (considered as work), on a day of rest if memory serves me on that particular account.

If this is truly the case, when we look to the reference where Jesus is "Sitting", well... I think you see my point if we take into consideration that there are those that are still being saved.

BTW, I believe that the purpose of Eph 2:8-9 is summarized in vs. 10 ;-)

 

[Veritas]

Craig,

Do you believe that man is also justified before God by works? I believe we are because the example James uses is Abraham - justified by works - and referring to an incident where NO ONE saw what Abraham did BUT God! He was justified in God's eyes, because no other man saw what He did.

Nothing else matters but faith working in love.

I see Scripture considers the two together as peanut butter and jelly! To hold faith above works is unnecessary, because they BOTH come from God.

Joe,
Well I agree that faith and works come together as peanut butter and jelly. It would seem that faith without works is really an impossiblity, and this is what James is driving at. I understand what you are saying about Abraham, but would like to add we do know what Abraham did.

And James is talking about showing US his faith by what he does:
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James 2:18

And talks about what others CALLED Abraham:
....he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:23-24

I try to find balance between James and Paul.
Both say the same thing when they talk of Abraham

Paul says:
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:3
and James says:
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," James 2:23

and Paul does mention Abraham in respect to God:
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ€â€but not before God. Romans 4:2

Now I suppose it could be argued that Abraham may still be justified through works in front of God, just not being boastful about it, but in light of what Paul writes in Ephesians I don't think that is true:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Of course, that would mean by our works, it is not possible... But we are given the gift of God, faith - which is actually an active faith full of works.

Despite our disagreements, I think the statement you made "Nothing else matters but faith working in love." is beautiful. And I would agree with that.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Joe and Alone,

First, sorry if I don't respond in a timely manner, if you respond to this post cause I don't get much time on here anymore. But anyway, this thought had entered my mind as I was reading this.

I believe that Christ said that his father was always working, and thus, it was good for him (Jesus) to heal (considered as work), on a day of rest if memory serves me on that particular account.

If this is truly the case, when we look to the reference where Jesus is "Sitting", well... I think you see my point if we take into consideration that there are those that are still being saved.

BTW, I believe that the purpose of Eph 2:8-9 is summarized in vs. 10 ;-)

I agree. The whole purpose of the Church is so that Christ can CONTINUE to call men to Himself through visible means - just as He appeared to us visibly. Thus, Catholics say that the Church is the CONTINUATION of the Incarnation (God becoming flesh). God works through other people. Jeff, we have spoken about this very recently!

Yes, Ephesians 2:8-10 should be taken together. God gives both faith and works and it is unnecessary to separate the two. Neither alone will not save us.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,
Well I agree that faith and works come together as peanut butter and jelly. It would seem that faith without works is really an impossiblity, and this is what James is driving at. I understand what you are saying about Abraham, but would like to add we do know what Abraham did.

Yes, but I think the example James picks out makes it clear that he thought Abraham was justified in God's eyes. I suppose once the story got out, orally or written, he was considered righteous in man's eyes, as well. I do think we should consider WHY James chose that particular example, though. I have found that such "breaking open the Word" is very fruitful in understanding God's revelation.

And James is talking about showing US his faith by what he does:
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. James 2:18

And talks about what others CALLED Abraham:
....he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. James 2:23-24

I try to find balance between James and Paul.
Both say the same thing when they talk of Abraham

Agreed. Balance is very important. We shouldn't overemphasize one side of an equation to the detrimant of the other, since God revealed that both are important. Faith and works are not the only paradox in Christian thought, either. Grace and free will, authority and freedom, apparently contradictory concepts - but we should realize that we must maintain a balance, since Scriptures give both sides their due, and silencing one side is ignoring part of God's Word. Thus, we should realize that both faith and works are important to salvation.

Despite our disagreements, I think the statement you made "Nothing else matters but faith working in love." is beautiful. And I would agree with that.

LOL! I am merely paraphrasing Galatians 5!

Take care,

Joe