'You are gods!' What?!

[Kaliani]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

 

[smaller]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

All the people of Israel are taught in the Old Testament to be Gods children.

See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 (the scripture Jesus was citing in the N.T., which He in fact gave as His Own Word in the Old Testament)

Numbers 3:13
Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.

Israel's people are in fact HIS OWN, by His calling and election.

Paul says this is a mystery in Romans 11, because God in Christ will for a fact save them all, even enemies of the Gospel.

It is a hard matter to understand for many. But it is a Spiritual Fact. And many will read of it and they will not and can not understand it, even though 'it is written' and put right in front of their eyes. Most still can not see it, or understand it.

s

 

[Webers_Home]

.
According to the Lord's prayer (John 17:3) there is but one true God. Therefore the people to whom Psalm 82 is penned are false Gods; so if the Jews were going to condemn Jesus for making himself out to be God (John 10:33) then to be fair; they would have to condemn themselves too. He really had his opponents painted into a corner and they knew it too.

Buen Camino
/

 

[smaller]

.
According to the Lord's prayer (John 17:3) there is but one true God. Therefore the people to whom Psalm 82 is penned are false Gods; so if the Jews were going to condemn Jesus for making himself out to be God (John 10:33) then to be fair; they would have to condemn themselves too. He really had his opponents painted into a corner and they knew it too.

Buen Camino
/

Good catch! Hard to beat the Word Chess Master at His Own Word.

To be fair though, all of Israel are as Psalm 82:6 stated:

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

A lot of information there to be closely observed. And I agree that the 'little' g god was/is indeed a FALSE god.

Interesting package isn't it?

s

 

[Kaliani]

So he was being sarcastic.

I see. Thank you smaller and Webers_Home.

 

[smaller]

So he was being sarcastic.

I see. Thank you smaller and Webers_Home.

?????

 

[Kaliani]

Well, it is entirely possible that I have misunderstood (please bear with me, this is not my mother tongue) but I thought you meant that Jesus was quoting the Psalms ironically.

I understood Webers_Home to be saying that Jesus said THEY, the Pharisees, were gods - false gods. Because he deliberately quoted a scripture that was addressing false gods.

Am I mistaken then? Please enlighten me.

 

[smaller]

Well, it is entirely possible that I have misunderstood (please bear with me, this is not my mother tongue) but I thought you meant that Jesus was quoting the Psalms ironically.

I understood Webers_Home to be saying that Jesus said THEY, the Pharisees, were gods - false gods. Because he deliberately quoted a scripture that was addressing false gods.

Am I mistaken then? Please enlighten me.

He was speaking Rock Solid Fact to the Israelites.

God in Christ is not apt to play around with His Own Words.

They were both 'false gods' and Children of God.

It's a hard principle to come to grips with, but it is a fact.

s

 

[Hammer]

All the people of Israel are taught in the Old Testament to be Gods children.

That's a half-truth. All Israel is God's children, but not all Israel belongs to Israel. Israelites who didn't have faith in God were to be cut-off from Israel, in the Old Testament.

 

[smaller]

That's a half-truth. All Israel is God's children, but not all Israel belongs to Israel. Israelites who didn't have faith in God were to be cut-off from Israel, in the Old Testament.

There really are much better ways of seeing this matter, seriously.

Hebrews 3&4 tells us that the Israelites taken out of Egypt died in the desert from UNbelief. Even says the Gospel was preached unto them as well.

As a matter of written fact, only those under the age of 20 plus Joshua and Caleb were the ONLY ONES who didn't die in the desert of UNbelief, and that was inclusive of Moses and Aaron.

It's much more interesting than what you see or claim.

Scroll over to Romans 11:8 and you will see WHO blinded them and how. And if you see you will also see who was with Israel that was NOT Israel right there in that scripture. And if you see, you wouldn't even think of making your above statement.

But as the scripture says, it can be written, and remain UNseen and UNheard.

s

 

[Mitspa]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

The answer to your question is in the scripture!

Joh 10:34

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

In the beginning was the?

Mitspa

 

[Kaliani]

I certainly didn't think that the Master was just playing around with words. I am sorry if I have caused offence. I just am not very spiritually advanced evidently.

 

[Mitspa]

I certainly didn't think that the Master was just playing around with words. I am sorry if I have caused offence. I just am not very spiritually advanced evidently.

The Scriptures declare "that He did not play around with words" but that He spoke in many parables, at one point it says of Him, that without a parable He did not speak?

The Kingdom of God is a "mystery", revealed to those who really believe Gods Word!

 

[felix]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

Exo 7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you [as] God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

Sent from mobile.

 

[elijah23]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

We are what we are, regardless of what we call ourselves. I would be uncomfortable with someone who called himself a god. We were taught to be humble.

 

[teddy trueblood]

(The following is from my personal study file which has also been posted on my blog and various sites.)

The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985 clearly recognizes the truth about the lesser meaning of theos and elohim ('a god'):

"In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.†- footnote for Ps. 82:1.

And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).â€


The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:

“The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’.†- Vol. 3, p. 187.

The respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:
“The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34†- p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.


Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretationâ€:

“65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....â€


Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.†- p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.â€


The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...â€


Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels†is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek. The trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 -

“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].â€


Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,†Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “Godâ€/“a god†about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetusâ€; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.â€

And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of the twentieth century agree.

A trinitarian (Catholic) professor of Hebrew Bible at the University of Chicago, John J. Collins, writes about such usage in Jewish writings around the time of Christ:

“In this literature, the supremacy of the Most High God is never questioned, but there is considerable room for lesser beings who may be called ‘gods,’ theoi or elim. Moreover, both the authors of the apocalyptic literature [which includes the scriptural writings of the books of Daniel and Revelation] and Philo single out one pre-eminent divine or angelic being under God - a super-angel - called by various names in the apocalyptic texts and identified as the Logos [‘the Word’] by Philo.†- p. 93, Aspects of Monotheism - How God is One, Biblical Archaeological Society, 1997.

All of this shows the scriptural understanding (as well as the same understanding by Christian writers of the first centuries) of “god†as applied to angels and certain men who were trying to follow God or who were representatives or ambassadors for God.

Just because it sounds stran to our modern ears is no reason to ignore the facts. And it's no reason to take advantage of that fact by falsely claiming that only two understandings of the words theos and elohim are possible: “God†and “false gods.â€

 

[Kaliani]

Wow, Teddy, this is a lot of information. Thanks so much. This is great. Thank you.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

When Jesus said 'You are gods' what did he mean?

I have heard before that a literal interpretation would be blasphemous and that people have no business thinking that they are gods, because they are sinful worms of the dust.

Jesus seems to be encouraging, even daring us to have slightly higher self-esteem than that, though. I don't suppose he said it just to annoy the Pharisees.

Thoughts?

The first question to ask ourselves, who is the divine counsel in Psalm 82? That divine counsel are not human. They are fallen elohim. Note the coment, you will die like men. There is so much more. It is getting late for me. Google The Divine Counsel and look for Michael Heiser. Later this week, I will give more insights. I used to think these were judges of Israel. But with closer scrutiny, I realized my error. BTW, men with physical bodies are not the sons of god known as elohim. Also, see Genesis 6 when, the sons of God came from Heaven and had sex with the daughters of men. The result were the nephilim.

 

[Asyncritus]

So when it says in Hebrews 1 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever' which seems to indicate that Jesus is God, the fact is that he is the king in Psalm 45, and as such is entitled to be called 'God'.

Not that He is the Almighty, of course.

 

[John 8:32]

If those in the resurrection are to be the sons of God and the brothers of Jesus Christ, what are they? The family dog? Are they not God? Think about this...

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

A twofold creation. The image of God, we have a head, torso, arms, hands, legs and feet. We look like God. In the resurrection we will have the likeness of God...

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The potential, the destiny of man is to become God's children. I am the son of my physical father, he was a human, I am a human. When I am the resurrected son of God, I will be God. Now we will NEVER be the same in authority or power, but we will be the same in composition. This verse is prophetic...

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Our destiny is the be God and to be the children of the Most High.