You Are Without Excuse' Quath & Others.

[christian_soldier]

I realize that Quath may claim other objections to the Christian faith than the quality of its representatives.

Or, he may be on the team of the author of confusion.

:o

Why else would an atheist spend so long on a Christian forum? Seeking truth? Sure doesn't seem that way!

Sowing doubt?

:-?

 

[Quath]

OMG! Have you ever seen or heard of anyone that got healed from a life threatening disease? Have you ever seen the birth of a baby? my God... that in itself is a true miracle! "He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God" (John 3:18) If a person does nothing about salvation, he or she has "believed not", and will be condemned!

Organ donations, penicillin and robotic arm replacements are amazing, but I would not call them a miracle.

In a sense, a computer working seems to be a miracle as well. But once you understand the details, it is just an amazing, complex process. The same is true for the birth of a baby.

If I can understand a process in terms of nonintelligent laws, then I don't need magic to explain it.

Or, he may be on the team of the author of confusion.

Heh. Of cource, I must be working for Satan. Any disagreement is easily solved by assuming I am working for evil.

Why else would an atheist spend so long on a Christian forum? Seeking truth? Sure doesn't seem that way!

My goal is not to learn about God, but to learn about the followers of God.

 

[Relic]

Why else would an atheist spend so long on a Christian forum? Seeking truth? Sure doesn't seem that way!

My goal is not to learn about God, but to learn about the followers of God.

Isn't it amazing how his "goal" is to study
people/followers of God, instead of to study God?

Perhaps, we are looked upon by Quath as nothing but bunch of guinea
pigs, for evaluation in his study of the "followers of God" . :roll: :-?

Mad Scientist examine his subject



.

 

[christian_soldier]

Isn't it amazing how his "goal" is to study
people/followers of God, instead of to study God?

Perhaps, we are looked upon by Quath as nothing but bunch of guinea
pigs, for evaluation in his study of the "followers of God" . :roll: :-?

Mad Scientist examine his subject

He will have all eternity to ponder his findings.

 

[lovely]

Quath,

I don't see you as studying me like a guinea pig. I do think that you are curious about the arguments of believers, though, their world-views...and how they form them. Maybe you even use these things against us in your mind...sort of more reasons to be against religion...or to find ways to argue against it. This doesn't matter to me. I believe God brought you here. :wink: On a personal note, you have always been kind to me when we have written, here and in pm, and you have encouraged me on more than one occasion when I have been struggling. I get that feeling you do like some of us in a sincere manner. I am glad you're here, not only because I want you to see the Gospel...though I would be lying if I said that wasn't top on my list...but also because I like you.

Here are my thoughts on the topic. Lewis is right, you will be without excuse if you die in your state of unbelief, and there is nothing anyone can do about it because it's between you and God alone. I do pray for you, that God not give you over to sin (unbelief), but give you genuine deep belief instead. I pray that He uses your doubts later to fill you up with answers. Like Lewis, I hope to see a beautiful testimony in your life one day.

I have faith that if you really desired to know God that He would reveal himself to you...that if you really looked into His Word with a motive to find out if He is real, then you would learn that He is...that He's not some cliche'. It would take faith, though. What else can be said? The Gospel is that God loves you, and that He sent His Son to die for you so that you may join Him in His eternal inheritance. I think you have heard all of this before, but you always have a reason (or excuse) for your unbelief no matter what is said. Why doesn't Creation convince you? The Heavens are telling, and it is in man to know...on some level you see evidence of Him, and you reject Him. Why doesn't the Word convince you? I am amazed at the Truth in the Word...why aren't you?

I have a friend (We grew up together) who once told me that he wished he could have absolute faith like mine, but that he found he could believe in nothing absolutely. Life seems to be a series of questions for him with no definite answers. I think most of the time he likes the open-endedness of his beliefs, because he feels as if he is more open-minded, or more thoughtful, than most, but at times a fixed point of navigation seems to appeal to him too. We are still great friends, but he is still an atheist...or maybe closer to agnostic really.

I think what Drew said is correct. Not everyone who calls themselves believer's in Christ are actually believers. I don't know why this happens, but I know that Jesus did speak of the tares and the wheat growing together. John, in his epistles, says that loving God, and sharing God's love in us through things like acts of forgiveness and acts of charity is our ear mark of belief. I do think in this instance belief dictates behavior...because the Spirit indwells believers, though, not because we are better people because of our worldviews or doctrines. And as believer's, between believers, we are to discern by the fruits...which seems hard because we are all so imperfect (our judgements and deeds)...but I think this is why God expects that we will rely on the Holy Spirit's guidance in these matters too. Humility is very key, because we must recognize it is only by God, and not of ourselves. I think that seeing the Holy Spirit working in the lives of believer's is a huge witness. If people could see God's love in us more, then I believe more would come to know Christ. I think, though, this is most definitely a work of God alone, His Spirit. I also think that when we represent Christ poorly, by not walking in the Spirit, this also influences...and it may even serve to harden.

I think that you see your 'excuses' as questions really...or holes even. I would say that most of us have had similar 'excuses' before we were believers...even as believers to a degree. I met Him young, and though I have had periods of doubt...questions...'excuses'...they could not root out my belief. I can't get away from my faith, and I have tried before. My dad and I use to have huge discussions about faith as I was growing. These discussions deepened my faith in the long run, and they taught me that apologetics doesn't save...the Holy Spirit does. Given words, God's words, are the only that will serve to reveal Him to people. For me, the more I hear of God, the more I seem to believe and love Him. I would say that your experience is just the opposite...the more you hear, the more you doubt. I think you wrote once that a book that your grandmother sent to you to bear witness of Christ only caused you to be more of an unbeliever. This is how it should be, I guess. He is a Cornerstone for some, and a Rock of offence to others.

You can not see God's Truth for some reason, and I can't see anything but His Truth anymore...isn't this odd? Are we really so different as people? You don't see God in Creation, or in the Word, and you don't see Him in Christ or His church's witness. If I tell you of God answering my prayers, you find reasons to doubt. If I tell you of a miracle, you find reasons why not to attribute it to God. I can only pray that God will incline your heart to know Him, love him, as mine does. What else can I do other than pray and speak the witness?

Anyway, I am glad you are here. The Lord bless you.

 

[Quath]

I don't see you as studying me like a guinea pig. I do think that you are curious about the arguments of believers, though, their world-views...and how they form them.

Yeah, I don't see people here as guinea pigs. I live in a world where most people are believers and I want to understand this world. I want to see how theists and nontheists get along when we are directly asking questions instead of acting polite in public and not mentioning religion.

On a personal note, you have always been kind to me when we have written, here and in pm, and you have encouraged me on more than one occasion when I have been struggling. I get that feeling you do like some of us in a sincere manner. I am glad you're here, not only because I want you to see the Gospel...though I would be lying if I said that wasn't top on my list...but also because I like you.

I like you and many other people here. It may not come across well, but I like talking to people on a personal level even though we may have very fundamental differences. I do like chatiing with people here. Though I may be terse and argumentative, I can not think of anyone here that I do not like. I do not see anyone here as bad, just different.

Here are my thoughts on the topic. Lewis is right, you will be without excuse if you die in your state of unbelief, and there is nothing anyone can do about it because it's between you and God alone. I do pray for you, that God not give you over to sin (unbelief), but give you genuine deep belief instead. I pray that He uses your doubts later to fill you up with answers. Like Lewis, I hope to see a beautiful testimony in your life one day.

If you die and go to heaven, will you be sad that I am in hell? If so, how can heaven be a happy place? If not, why worry about me?

So that's the logical side of me. The emotional side is thinking more "How can you worship a being that you believes tortures people for all of eternity? Does it not bother you that God could choose no eternal suffering and doesn't bother to?" Maybe we just have radically different perspectives on things. I dunno.

Why doesn't Creation convince you? The Heavens are telling, and it is in man to know...on some level you see evidence of Him, and you reject Him. Why doesn't the Word convince you? I am amazed at the Truth in the Word...why aren't you?

The more I learn of the world, the less I see a handprint of God. You could imagine a primative tribe that worships a weather god because they worry about the weather. The idea that the weather is confusing and hard to understand just reinforces their beliefs. But for us, we know that the weather is not intelligent and just follows predictable physics. So we see no need to believe in a weather god. This is how I feel about creation.

Anyway, I am glad you are here. The Lord bless you.

Thank you for your kindness.

 

[Atonement]

Not of "God/Yahweh" but of other gods there have been such stories. Death and rejuvination is a very pagan idea that you can see in the stories of the seasons to the movement of the sun and moon.

Name one that can be proven?

 

[Quath]

Name one that can be proven?

I don't think any of them are provable. I think it comes down to faith in whichever one you believe.

 

[Atonement]

I don't think any of them are provable. I think it comes down to faith in whichever one you believe.

Wrong.. There are about five million people that have seen the empty tomb. Can the others gods come close to that? NO!!!!!!!

 

[christian_soldier]

The fact that we have eye-witness testimony of Jesus' life AND resurrection, by folks who gave their lives for their beliefs pretty much convinces me of the Truth of Christianity.

Peter was such a one. Crucified upside down because he didn't consider himself worthy to die just like Jesus.

 

[Devekut]

Peter's crucifixion isn't biblical.

 

[Solo]

Peter's crucifixion isn't biblical.

Exactly and neither is the other garbage put out by the Roman Catholic church and its slaves.

• It is certain that Peter died in Rome and that his martyrdom came during the reign of Emperor Nero, probably in 64. Testimony of his martyrdom is extensive, including Origen, Eusebius of Caesarea, St. Clement I of Rome, St. Ignatius, and St. Irenaeus. According to rich tradition, Peter was crucified on the Vatican Hill upside down because he declared himself unworthy to die in the same manner as the Lord. He was then buried on Vatican Hill, and excavations under St. Peter’s Basilica have unearthed his probable tomb, and his relics are now enshrined under the high altar of St. Peter’s. From the earliest days of the Church, Peter was recognized as the Prince of the Apostles and the first Supreme Pontiff; his see, Rome, has thus enjoyed the position of primacy over the entire Catholic Church.
  
  Retrieved from http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=5358

 

[Devekut]

My point is that alot of Christians actually regard as true many of the traditions and writings of the early church fathers, such as the doctrine of original sin, while also labelling most of their Christian practice as false and unbiblical.

 

[Atonement]

My point is that alot of Christians actually regard as true many of the traditions and writings of the early church fathers, such as the doctrine of original sin, while also labelling most of their Christian practice as false and unbiblical.

So are you saying that Jesus' tomb is not empty?? Then how is your point referencing other gods??? Your point should be to stay on topic and not turn this into another Catholic vs. Christian thread... If you have nothing to say that's on topic, then please don't respond....

 

[christian_soldier]

Peter's crucifixion isn't biblical.

How did Peter die?

 

[Devekut]

So are you saying that Jesus' tomb is not empty?? Then how is your point referencing other gods??? Your point should be to stay on topic and not turn this into another Catholic vs. Christian thread... If you have nothing to say that's on topic, then please don't respond....

An allusion to a tradition of the early church was made. Since I was under the impression that traditions of the early church were not valid sources of knowledge, I was highlighting the inconsistency. I'd probably respond to these things in separate threads if it hadn't been made so clear that threads regarding Catholic Christianity and the teachings of the early church are not appropriate for a Christian site.

 

[Atonement]

How did Peter die?

Only one Scripture expresses Peters death..

Jhn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

These allude to the fact that Peter would die a martyr's death.

 

[Atonement]

An allusion to a tradition of the early church was made. Since I was under the impression that traditions of the early church were not valid sources of knowledge, I was highlighting the inconsistency. I'd probably respond to these things in separate threads if it hadn't been made so clear that threads regarding Catholic Christianity and the teachings of the early church are not appropriate for a Christian site.

This is not my point, it's a tradition yes, but it seems this is the only garbage that draws you into topics. Why is that I wonder?

 

[Devekut]

This is not my point, it's a tradition yes, but it seems this is the only garbage that draws you into topics. Why is that I wonder?

Maybe because topics warning people who do not believe in the bible that they are without excuse because the bible that they do not believe in says so strikes me as hopelessly circular.

 

[Atonement]

Maybe because topics warning people who do not believe in the bible that they are without excuse because the bible that they do not believe in says so strikes me as hopelessly circular.

And that happened where in this thread? People are with out excuse but it's the same people that do believe in the Bible that tell them that do out believe the Bible these facts from the Bible.