-You be the judge for how near we are to the End-

[Brother Mike]

yes but they has the antecedent of whom or what? angels or men? you tell me

If we can set Rev 12 in the past of an event of Jesus by which the Gospel of Jesus Christ is mentioned in REV 12.

Then the only gospel mentioned is that of an angel. Men just testify of Jesus on earth is one place.

It appears the Word is done by the 144,000 sealed of God who were given the Testimony of Jesus. The two witnesses give a powerful witness that effects the Word in so much that people give gifts to each other all over the World when they are dead, and Angels coming down saying to the earth Woe is you that are down here.

It seems to me Jason that at this Point the Angels of the Lord are doing a whole lot of work here. However it seems these two witnesses make a very large impact on everyone, I assume they are not angles. I have to answer I don't know completely. Good question.

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm I will post it in context the two witness are men not angels.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

ok so where does that end in the past. I will have to read more on this.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Re: How CLOSE to the End Times, are we??

But it could be otherwise?

2 Peter 3
[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

--Elijah

Not sure what you mean by "could it be otherwise".

PS: And I think that I will just look at the facts! (USA with 6 Catholics & three non Christian Jews who make up the Supreme court)

Understood. But the fact that we have a non-believing man as president and that he stood up and read verses of the Bible and clearly indicated he did not understand them; then he out and out mocked believers, THAT tells me more of where our country is, and is headed, than the makeup of the SC.

 

[Eugene]

who is the child then? I thought only jesus rules. so then its the ac?

If you agree with my explanation of Revelation 4:1 as being future from us, a new viewpoint shown to John of things of things hereafter from that point in time in heaven, then we need to bring forth that in Revelation 12:5 this man child was caught up unto God, and to his throne..

It can't be referring to Jesus because He is already in Heaven seated in His Father's throne. I would ask if you see further scripture showing any arriving before the throne? A hint is that they are virgin mankind, and I'm not attempting to hide their identity, but if I just name the man child I normally just get oh no.

 

[jasoncran]

its not the ac. even my pastor who is a Die hard pre-tribber doesn't teach that. its not the ac. would god protect the ac, until he caught up unto the throne?

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne

only one person can be that. Jesus!
nor it does the fit the 144, 000 since well to say that would mean by jewish birth rites. a jew isn't a jew unless his mother is a jewess. that was the means they reconciled lineage. sorry you look at Nehemiah and aslo ezra and see that they had to know their lineage to listed in said tribe. levites must show proof to be as such. ad 70 and prior is the best explanation as they did have records of the lineages.

 

[Eugene]

I don't know when satan was cast out

What makes you believe Satan is not accusing you before our God day and night at this very time? Revelation 12:10. These things being shown to John are subsequent to Revelation 4:1.

 

[jasoncran]

why.


because of the plain words of CHRIST.
luke 1:10

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you

the context implies defeat not some attack.

 

[Eugene]

REV 12 is a past event.

Brother Mike, that doesn't then fit Revelation 4:1, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

Again, the three vision viewpoints are given in Revelation 1:19, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter." The things seen, and which are appear in Revelation Chapters one through three. Thoughts?

 

[jasoncran]

if a Hebrew is saved what body of saints is he with?
isreal or Christ?

 

[Eugene]

if a Hebrew is saved what body of saints is he with?
isreal or Christ?

From past questions I have observed, I tend to believe you have an idea on this which I am interested in, but I suggest all in Christ from Pentecost through Revelation 3:16 are of the Church. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

 

[jasoncran]

if a Hebrew is saved what body of saints is he with?
isreal or Christ?

From past questions I have observed, I tend to believe you have an idea on this which I am interested in, but I suggest all in Christ from Pentecost through Revelation 3:16 are of the Church. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

uh, no. I believe that the church is here on the earth and of those that serve him. I believe that verse above is only to that church but we can learn from that about how god feels. the hebrews today if saved are part of the plan of salvation not the mosaic covenant.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: How CLOSE to the End Times, are we??

But it could be otherwise?

2 Peter 3
[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

--Elijah

Not sure what you mean by "could it be otherwise".

PS: And I think that I will just look at the facts! (USA with 6 Catholics & three non Christian Jews who make up the Supreme court)

Understood. But the fact that we have a non-believing man as president and that he stood up and read verses of the Bible and clearly indicated he did not understand them; then he out and out mocked believers, THAT tells me more of where our country is, and is headed, than the makeup of the SC.

Then that means that you are seeing daylight??

--Elijah

 

[Eugene]

the hebrews today if saved are part of the plan of salvation not the mosaic covenant.

I agree, and like Paul as of "one born out of due time" of 1 Corinthians 15:8. He became born of God ahead of all Israel to be saved at a future time. Concerning your statement that you believe the statement to the Laodiceans in Revelation 3:16 was to that one church, I submit to you that all of Revelation Chapters Two and Three concerning the seven churches addresses was different conditions of of the one body of Christ at different locations. E.g., Revelation 2:8 ". . the church in Smyrna." Revelation 2:12 ". . the church in Pergamos." And though all seven churches are not addressed in the same manner, we read in 1 Corinthians 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." Ephesians 4:4 There is one body . ."

 

[jasoncran]

if isreal is to be saved then its part of the body thus it cant be a removal of the church to start another one. let alone the return of Christ to lead a massive Hebrew revival. that is to save the gentiles that manage to be lucky to survive all them plagues and not believe!

 

[Eugene]

if isreal is to be saved then its part of the body thus it cant be a removal of the church to start another one. let alone the return of Christ to lead a massive Hebrew revival. that is to save the gentiles that manage to be lucky to survive all them plagues and not believe!

Do you think there might them that become saved during Jesus' reign? Does the church remain on earth or Sion? Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . ."

 

[Randy]

Hi guy, just one quick remark. The second Adam knew 'NOT' of the day that Christ would come. But are we to believe that the resurrected Christ who was accepted of the Father (John 20:8) does not know when He comes again??? With ALL of the Holy Angels??

I suggest that that is flawed theology that we had been taught?

--Elijah

I believe Jesus who stated even the Son didn't know the date the Father set by His own authority.

As I stated, to me, Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. That event must take place first before the Lords 2nd coming. I don't know that date. If Jesus now knows that date He hasn't let "me" know. (or the church)

Randy

But Christ Has been accepted of the Jehovah God! (John 20:17) And now HE will make known the time of His coming. But with His PROPHESY! And Matt. 24:21 starting with this verse... (Joel 2:10-13)
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

and then ibid 25 on...

[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

and this is as close as the time transpires! But the clock is still clicking, when this finally takes place it will be known! But we can read the nearness of the Lords return & SEE that it is not far off!
1 Thess. 5
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
[3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
[5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
....
[8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

--Elijah

What you speak of is seasons not Jesus knowing the date. Rev 11 is such a sign that can't be mistaken.

If anyone has a shred of faith on earth at the time of the two witnesses ref Rev 11 they will believe that one last warning/ testimony. After their testimony is complete the "beast" kills them and after three days they are raised to life and caught up to heaven (God) . Some do finally believe. ref Rev 11:13 Then shall the great tribulation begin. The beasts reign is 42 months. For man has not believed God and has not repented of their sin. The beast will deceive the whole world into following him. At that time that powerful deception will be allowed to take place. The elect will not be deceived. Elect=those that obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


Randy

 

[JCitoL]

Back in E.G.W.'s day, she penned that when we saw one disaster following on the heels of another, then it was this sign that Christ would be coming.

Matt. 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

--Elijah

there are no more than 5-6 millennia from the day of the original sin until the last day:

Revelation 17:10 "there are seven kings(i.e. seven times): five are fallen(i.e. reckoned from the seventh day on 5 millennia will pass), and one is(i.e. and the end of God's somnolence/drowse will occur in the 6th millennium), and the other is not yet come(i.e. and the time during which the "darkness" will continue to reign (before God wake fully up) in the sixth millennium will occur at last); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space(i.e. but it will continue a very short time)."

so the end will come very soon

Blessings

 

[jasoncran]

if isreal is to be saved then its part of the body thus it cant be a removal of the church to start another one. let alone the return of Christ to lead a massive Hebrew revival. that is to save the gentiles that manage to be lucky to survive all them plagues and not believe!

Do you think there might them that become saved during Jesus' reign? Does the church remain on earth or Sion? Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . ."

that is now. but ye are come is present tense, not a future tense. It may be at the most present perfect. we have access to that city now. how then can paul say we can go bodly before the throne of grace if that isn't the case?

 

[Eugene]

Do you think there might them that become saved during Jesus' reign? Does the church remain on earth or Sion? Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . ."

that is now. but ye are come is present tense, not a future tense. It may be at the most present perfect. we have access to that city now. how then can paul say we can go bodly before the throne of grace if that isn't the case?

And so you believe Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved" refers to the here and now? As soon as Laodicea is spued out it's all over for Israel even though the "Times of the Gentiles" continues? You do realize that this is not the Preterism Discussions forum.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, who do you think those of Revelation 14:1 are? "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." Revelation 14:3 ". . the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth."

 

[jasoncran]

I believe the 144,000 are sealed already.

read james one and then believe that to be literal.your doctrine has a problem. I am of isreal, so is my brother his kids and so is my great uncle. we are all saved. so then we lost that fleshly branch that were a part of.i am that natural branch that paul speaks about.if any man is saved isn't he imputed with righteousness? yes and if that be the case then any Hebrew saved is isreal that is purged without sin.