Your thoughts on the Trinity?

[sleepeth in harvest]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Some might say I am promoting the doctrine of three Gods-- NO I am not!

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Thoughts?

 

[stovebolts]

Welcome to CF sleepeth in harvest,
I'm sure somebody will be able to give you an excellent reply

Plus, I AM NOT interested in a Trinity vs Oneness debate, either!

If you feel that this is occurring, please do not hesitate to send me or sheshisown a PM.

Debates are held either in the Apologetic or Debate forum. ;)

Note:
Any posts that refute the trinity with the intention of discrediting this basic and widely accepted Christian truth will be deleted and you will be given a warning.

Let this be a fruitful discussion

 

[Cornelius]

Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

My understanding is that God the Father has a Spirit and that Spirit is holy.(That goes without saying ) Matthew 10:20 calls the Holy Spirit: "the Spirit of your Father" and Jhn 15:26 tell us the Comforter (Holy Spirit) ....proceedeth FROM the Father. (Because it is as Matthew teaches: the Spirit OF the Father )

So we are created in God's image. God has a Spirit as well, called "the Spirit of your Father, that proceeds from Him" That is the Holy Spirit.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God.Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (So God the Father is invisible , but Jesus is visible)
He is the firstborn: So He came forth from the invisible Father.("born")

Father , Son and Holy Spirit are all one in purpose and WORD. They are one, like WE must be one:


Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now for us to understand the blue part we have to study what the Bible tells us what it means to be IN CHRIST . Then we find out what the blue part says about being ONE.

MOST Christians do not have a clear understanding of this, but it is not a salvation issue, PLUS we are not to separate over this doctrine.
in Christ
C

 

[francisdesales]

I have a very difficult time understanding one God in the form of three persons in the sense of who is being spoken of:

If someone says "God" or "the Lord" or "the Lord God", my first thought is "which person of the Trinity are they referring to?" Or are they just referring to God without any specific person in mind?

My friend, you wouldn't be the first! The Church wrangled over the relationship between the Father and the Son for hundred of years before hammering out a definitive statement of the faith passed on by the Apostles.

Most Christians have problems with the Trinity because they preach Christ often to the exclusion of the Spirit and the Father. Normally, we as humans appropriate the works of God to different persons. For example, we appropriate the work of redemption to Christ and the work of creation to the Father and the work of sanctification to the Spirit. However, because God is one and a Trinity of persons, EACH is involved in ALL works of God. There is not three Gods, but three persons who are distinct ONLY in origin.

Christians proclaim that the Father is the uncreated source of Being. In addition, we proclaim that the Son is begotten by the Father in the eternal "now" that transcends time. The Father has a perfect intellectual concept of Himself, similar to how we might think of our own self, but to a much greater scale of perfection. This "Thought of Self" is the Son, the Word of God, meaning the intellect of God personified. And finally, we proclaim that the Spirit is generated from the Father through the Son. The Father loves His begotten Son (and vice versus) so greatly that from this sharing of Self, the Holy Spirit, Love Itself, is personified.

Normally, when we pray, we consider Christ, since HE is the Word of God, God manifested in created form. We as humans have a mediator that has manifested Itself, and so, it is natural that we have a connection with the Christ more than the Spirit or the Father. In reality, again, when we pray, we pray to the entire Trinity, since we pray to the Father, through the Son and by the power of the Spirit, since we cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit.

Also, with most emphasis on the Lord Jesus in preaching, discussions, etc., why aren't the Father and the Holy Spirit emphasized more? For example, I haven't heard too many songs sung about the Holy Spirit.

Churches that are liturgical in nature do indeed have prayers that call upon the Spirit or the Father, although in liturgy, we participate in the ministry of Christ. The "Great Amen" is the ultimate lifting of our hearts, the highpoint of the Mass where we unite ourselves with Christ and offer this sacrifice to the Father:

"Through Him (Jesus), with Him, and in Him, in unity with the Holy Spirit; all glory and honor is yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever."

"Amen..."

This is just one example of the Liturgical recognition of the Trinity.

I can't understand the Trinity doctrine ( it sounds like a person is saying three Gods exist, which is not true), but I also can't understand modalism, either.

Perhaps if you think of three persons who are conjoined and use one mind may give you a dim view of the Trinity. The Son and Spirit cannot do anything separate from the Father (or any combination). There is only one Divine nature, one Divine action. Not three. Again, the distinction is in origin.

Regards

 

[Paidion]

No one understands the Trinity. The idea of the Trinity is never clearly spelled out so as to make sense. All analogies are inadequate. No one understands it, not because God is so incomprehensible, but because the concept of the Trinity is unintelligible. It's like trying to believe that God could create a rock so large that He couldn't lift it.

The primitive Christian teaching was that there was one God, and one Lord --- Jesus Christ. (I Corinthians 8:6). Jesus Himself in his prayer to the Father said, " ...this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3) So Jesus identified Himself as someone other than "the only true God".

The early Christians taught that the Father begat (not "created") His Son as the first of His acts --- before all ages. The Son was Another who was the exact expression of the Father's essence (Hebrews 1:3). He is called "the only begotten God", John 1:18 in manuscripts dating earlier than 300 A.D. (such as papyrus 66 and papyrus 75). Just as man begets man and the offspring is human, dog begets dog and the offspring is canine, so God begets God, and the offspring is divine.

Because Jesus is Another exactly like His Father, He could say, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." Yet they are two Divine Individuals. So are they two Gods? Yes and no.

Suppose someone snaps a picture of Joe Bloe. Joe possesses two prints. One day he says to friends, "I want to show you a picture of me." He pulls out one of the prints. Then he says, "Now I want to show you another picture." He pulls out the second print."

"That's the same picture!" someone objects.

"No it's not," Joe replies as he holds both prints up in the air. "Anyone can see that I have TWO pictures in my hand.

So are the two prints TWO pictures? Or are they "the same picture"? It all depends on what one means by "same picture" or "two pictures". Whoever saw the first picture, in effect, saw the second. Since the pictures are of the same image, they could be said to be "the same picture".

Jesus "bears the very stamp of [the Father's] nature" (as one translation renders it). So whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Are they ONE God? In the sense that there is only one image, yes. Are they TWO Gods? In the sense that they are two Individuals, yes.

 

[Cornelius]

No one understands the Trinity.

I am going to politely disagree with you Paidion I have no more questions about the Father , Son and Holy Spirit. In my previous post , I gave my understanding, which I simply took from the Bible.

People only get confused because they take the word "one" , to mean 1 (numeric) and not one as in unity. Its an age old error. It can be seen by simply looking at Jesus using the word one

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So if we say they are one (numeric) then that means, Jesus said that we too must become one (numeric) and we all know that is not true. ONE as the opposite of DIVIDED

I use to be confused, but now I am not . I just left doctrine out, and read the Bible for myself.

I know few really read what the others post, but if you want to , then reread my previous post and you may understand what I mean
in Christ
C

 

[tim-from-pa]

To understand the trinity (a word not in the bible, of course) then just look at yourself who was created in the image of God. When you speak about yourself, what are you referring to? Something physical, your soul? what?

And to understand yourself, an old geek like me uses the computer as an analogy---- hardware, software, and the power to energize both. The dividing line between them is very obscure yet all three are the same computer, but different aspects of it (or in the case of a being, 'personages').

That's about as much as our finite minds can fathom for now. I guess the whole revelation comes later. Do that and you should be fine.

 

[Cornelius]

To understand the trinity (a word not in the bible, of course) then just look at yourself who was created in the image of God. When you speak about yourself, what are you referring to? Something physical, your soul? what?

And to understand yourself, an old geek like me uses the computer as an analogy---- hardware, software, and the power to energize both. The dividing line between them is very obscure yet all three are the same computer, but different aspects of it (or in the case of a being, 'personages').

That's about as much as our finite minds can fathom for now. I guess the whole revelation comes later. Do that and you should be fine.

Again, I want to say that the Bible is actually clear about God the Father (invisible) and Jesus (visible ) and the Holy Spirit , who the Bible says is the Spirit of the Father.

They are not lumped into one entity, they (Jesus and the Father ) are separate, yet ONE in agreement. The Holy Spirit, according to the Bible is simply the Spirit of the Father.

We have to first see where our doctrine has been contaminated by the traditions of men, and then simply read the Bible.

Its in fact not even complicated to understand.

C

 

[jtb]

My thoughts on the trinity; the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible.

My doctrine
Jesus is the son of God the Father, God the Father's first creation, and heir to all that has been created by God the Father. Thus Jesus is God Jr. :D


Colossians 1
12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the Saints in light,
13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, that is, the forgiveness of sins,
15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.

I believe Jesus is the visible embodiment of the invisible image of God.
God is God
Jesus is Jesus
Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit

 

[Cornelius]

My thoughts on the trinity; the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible.

My doctrine
Jesus is the son of God the Father, God the Father's first creation, and heir to all that has been created by God the Father. Thus Jesus is God Jr. :D

This might get you into trouble with some people (the God Jr bit ) but in spirit you are correct (although He is not Jr in authority. They are 100% alike. When you see Jesus, you are seeing the exact image of th Father as well ) He did proceed from the Father. So there has been a time before He "proceeded " That does not mean that Jesus did not exist before that, He did indeed exist IN the Father in eternity past, (before time began) but proceeded from the Father the moment God created time . (He is the "beginning" and we all know eternity past has no beginning , this is not talking about that , but about when time actually began )

He was the first begotten and that means that there was indeed a time that came BEFORE He was begotten. Any father always comes before His/his Son/son.


Colossians 1
12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the Saints in light,
13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, that is, the forgiveness of sins,
15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the first begotten of every creature.

I believe Jesus is the visible embodiment of the invisible image of God.
God is God
Jesus is Jesus
Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit

God the Father is the Father (invisible)
Jesus is the Son that proceeded at a specific time from the Father (visible)
The Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit. (Obviously then also invisible .......although God can manifest His Spirit (as a Dove as we all know , or as flames of fire etc )


Our age old dogma blinds us to the understanding of who God is. Many of us are still defending old mistaken understandings and we do it with the best of intentions, thinking we are "saving the faith". But in fact we are only saving a very confusing dogma. We can always see the confusion in those who are defending the old incorrect dogma.

C

 

[shad]

q

Our age old dogma blinds us to the understanding of who God is. Many of us are still defending old mistaken understandings and we do it with the best of intentions, thinking we are "saving the faith". But in fact we are only saving a very confusing dogma. We can always see the confusion in those who are defending the old incorrect dogma.

C

well said, C.

As long as we accept Jesus as Son of God and Savior of the world and ask for forgiveness of our sins, we may have eternal life.

"for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[stovebolts]

I always kind of enjoyed how St. Augustine put it.

This is taken from "On Christian Doctrine:
This is chapter 5 of book one. Augustine works off a gradient, and by that I mean that chapter 5 is built off the lower 4 chapters. To get a fuller understanding of these two paragraphs, one must really read the previous four short chapters.

The true objects of enjoyment, then, are the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, who are at the same time the Trinity, one Being, supreme above all, and common to all who enjoy Him, if He is an object, and not rather the cause of all objects, or indeed even if He is the cause of all. For it is not easy to find a name that will suitably express so great excellence, unless it is better to speak in this way: The Trinity, one God, of whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things. Thus the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and each of these by Himself, is God, and at the same time they are all one God; and each of them by Himself is a complete substance, and yet they are all one substance.

The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son: but the Father is only Father, the Son is only Son, and the Holy Spirit is only Holy Spirit. To all three belong the same eternity, the same unchangeableness, the same majesty, the same power. In the Father is unity, in the Son equality, in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality; and these three attributes are all one because of the Father, all equal because of the Son, and all harmonious because of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jtb]

This might get you into trouble with some people (the God Jr bit ) but in spirit you are correct (although He is not Jr in authority. They are 100% alike. When you see Jesus, you are seeing the exact image of th Father as well ) He did proceed from the Father.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
...If you see me you've seen the Father
...I and the Father are one

I agree with you, Cornelius. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I should have added "so-to-speak" after Junior.

 

[Cornelius]

This might get you into trouble with some people (the God Jr bit ) but in spirit you are correct (although He is not Jr in authority. They are 100% alike. When you see Jesus, you are seeing the exact image of th Father as well ) He did proceed from the Father.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
...If you see me you've seen the Father
...I and the Father are one

I agree with you, Cornelius. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here. I should have added "so-to-speak" after Junior.

I am 100% fine with what you have said and no feathers ruffled here. I just made that comment,because I know that on some forums, some people sometimes just misread , and misunderstand. I saw the spirit in which you wrote it, and I understood it. Just wanted to clear it up , before somebody got the wrong idea.

your brother
C

 

[tim-from-pa]

To understand the trinity (a word not in the bible, of course) then just look at yourself who was created in the image of God. When you speak about yourself, what are you referring to? Something physical, your soul? what?

And to understand yourself, an old geek like me uses the computer as an analogy---- hardware, software, and the power to energize both. The dividing line between them is very obscure yet all three are the same computer, but different aspects of it (or in the case of a being, 'personages').

That's about as much as our finite minds can fathom for now. I guess the whole revelation comes later. Do that and you should be fine.

Again, I want to say that the Bible is actually clear about God the Father (invisible) and Jesus (visible ) and the Holy Spirit , who the Bible says is the Spirit of the Father.

They are not lumped into one entity, they (Jesus and the Father ) are separate, yet ONE in agreement. The Holy Spirit, according to the Bible is simply the Spirit of the Father.

We have to first see where our doctrine has been contaminated by the traditions of men, and then simply read the Bible.

Its in fact not even complicated to understand.

C

Yeah, I think that's what I said. I can clearly see my computer hardware, but I have a dickens of a time seeing the software or the electricity. The are separate, yet one in agreement assuming the computer's working right. The same can be about myself, I can only see the physical part of me in the mirror for some reason.

 

[Cornelius]

[quote="tim_from_pa":3m7vnopg]To understand the trinity (a word not in the bible, of course) then just look at yourself who was created in the image of God. When you speak about yourself, what are you referring to? Something physical, your soul? what?

And to understand yourself, an old geek like me uses the computer as an analogy---- hardware, software, and the power to energize both. The dividing line between them is very obscure yet all three are the same computer, but different aspects of it (or in the case of a being, 'personages').

That's about as much as our finite minds can fathom for now. I guess the whole revelation comes later. Do that and you should be fine.

Again, I want to say that the Bible is actually clear about God the Father (invisible) and Jesus (visible ) and the Holy Spirit , who the Bible says is the Spirit of the Father.

They are not lumped into one entity, they (Jesus and the Father ) are separate, yet ONE in agreement. The Holy Spirit, according to the Bible is simply the Spirit of the Father.

We have to first see where our doctrine has been contaminated by the traditions of men, and then simply read the Bible.

Its in fact not even complicated to understand.

C

Yeah, I think that's what I said. I can clearly see my computer hardware, but I have a dickens of a time seeing the software or the electricity. The are separate, yet one in agreement assuming the computer's working right. The same can be about myself, I can only see the physical part of me in the mirror for some reason.[/quote:3m7vnopg]

Thank you for clearing it up.

 

[boringtom]

The trinity has always been a very hard concept for me to grasp, but this is the way I can understand it:
The Trinity --- 1)God the Father, 2)The Son: the Word (Logos: the expression of thought), and 3)The Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of God the Father.
There is one God: there is the Father, whose very thought is His Son, both of whom share the same Holy Spirit.

 

[Cornelius]

The trinity has always been a very hard concept for me to grasp, but this is the way I can understand it:
The Trinity --- 1)God the Father, 2)The Son: the Word (Logos: the expression of thought), and 3)The Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of God the Father.
There is one God: there is the Father, whose very thought is His Son, both of whom share the same Holy Spirit.

Its easier to understand if you leave the word "trinity" out. Its really not in the Bible, so why bother to understand this word.
Leave the word out and just read your Bible.

C

 

[shad]

The trinity has always been a very hard concept for me to grasp, but this is the way I can understand it:
The Trinity --- 1)God the Father, 2)The Son: the Word (Logos: the expression of thought), and 3)The Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of God the Father.
There is one God: there is the Father, whose very thought is His Son, both of whom share the same Holy Spirit.

Its easier to understand if you leave the word "trinity" out. Its really not in the Bible, so why bother to understand this word.
Leave the word out and just read your Bible.

C

amen, C.

 

[nadab]

At John 1:18, the apostle John said that "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him." Many Bibles say "only-begotten Son". However, the wording of "only-begotten god" is accurate, for the oldest known Greek manuscripts of the book of John have this rendering, such Papyrus Bodmer 2 (P66) of about 200 C.E., Papyrus Bodmer 14,15 (P75), also of about 200 C.E., both being located at Geneva, Switzerland, the Vatican MS 1209 of the fourth century, located at Vatican City, Rome, as well as the Codex Ephraemi rescriptus of the fifth century, located at Paris, France. Thus, Jesus is "a god" but not "God Almighty".(Gen 17:1)

Also, many Bibles have rendered John 1:1 as "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(King James Bible) However, Greek grammar and the context strongly indicates that it should be rendered as "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god ". Due to the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article, such as "a" or "an", has made some question the above rendering. But what if a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era could be found of John 1:1 ? That would help in settling the issue.

Well, there is one - the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus' ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: "Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the third century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."

The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: "The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English."

Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What was found ? The Sahidic Coptic translation reads of John 1:1 as: "In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word".(Sahidic Coptic text; P.Chester Beatty-813, located at Dublin, Ireland) Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John's words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as God Almighty, but as "a god".