Zechariah 14

[Drew]

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

 

[whirlwind]

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.


Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

I'm going to disagree with part of what you have written. When Jesus cleared the temple it was our example. Those same Canaanites/traders are still active in the churches of today. It is up to us to clear them out...and we shall. They are the same traders mentioned in Revelation....those that "buy and sell."

When Jesus was crucified the veil of the temple was rent, from top to bottom. The time of the physical temple building ended. Now the temple is us!

• 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
  
  6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
  
  2 Corinthains 6:16 And what agreement hath the Temple of God with idols? for ye are the Temple of the living God; as God hath said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

The traders, the Cananite, are those that "buy and sell".....

• Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
  
  Zephaniah 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.

The temple is us....more timbers and nails are added each day and....it will again be cleared!

 

[Drew]

I'm going to disagree with part of what you have written. When Jesus cleared the temple it was our example. Those same Canaanites/traders are still active in the churches of today. It is up to us to clear them out...and we shall.

I think that this is a bit of stretch. Are you denying that Jesus fulfilled this statement when He cleared the temple?:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day

Jesus knows the Old Testament. It would seem like an incredible co-incidence that Jesus would clear the temple of traders and yet not intend us to see it as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

The churches of today are not the temple - the human being is the temple, as you point out. So I do not see how this prophecy can be sensibly fulfilled in the future.

 

[whirlwind]

I'm going to disagree with part of what you have written. When Jesus cleared the temple it was our example. Those same Canaanites/traders are still active in the churches of today. It is up to us to clear them out...and we shall.

I think that this is a bit of stretch. Are you denying that Jesus fulfilled this statement when He cleared the temple?:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day

He did not fulfill the prophecy...He gave us an example, a shadow, a type of what the fulfillment will be "on that day."

Jesus knows the Old Testament. It would seem like an incredible co-incidence that Jesus would clear the temple of traders and yet not intend us to see it as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

The churches of today are not the temple - the human being is the temple, as you point out. So I do not see how this prophecy can be sensibly fulfilled in the future.

• 11 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Where does he or will he sit? We know that we are the temple so....where will he sit? We know that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work," so how corrupted has "the temple" become? The "traders" are still in the temple.

 

[Drew]

He did not fulfill the prophecy...He gave us an example, a shadow, a type of what the fulfillment will be "on that day."

Please do not deny the obvious. He did fulfill the prophecy. Here is the statement from Zechariah 14:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

A Canaanite is a way to refer to a merchant.

On that day 2000 years ago he cleared the Temple, Jesus indeed did exactly what the prophecy said. Why do you take a fulfillment and call it a "fore-shadow"? You seem to simply assume that "that day" lies in our future. Why do you make such an assumption?

 

[whirlwind]

He did not fulfill the prophecy...He gave us an example, a shadow, a type of what the fulfillment will be "on that day."

Please do not deny the obvious. He did fulfill the prophecy. Here is the statement from Zechariah 14:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

A Canaanite is a way to refer to a merchant.

On that day 2000 years ago he cleared the Temple, Jesus indeed did exactly what the prophecy said. Why do you take a fulfillment and call it a "fore-shadow"? You seem to simply assume that "that day" lies in our future. Why do you make such an assumption?

Are traders now in the house of the Lord or is everyone claiming to be of God...of God?

 

[Drew]

Are traders now in the house of the Lord or is everyone claiming to be of God...of God?

You are engaging in a funny kind of exegesis. You deny the manifest fact that there is a prophecy about clearing merchants from the temple - a prophecy which Jesus clearly fulfilled, and most certainly knew He was fulfilling.

You then seem to argue that since the temple is now the human being, and since some humans are not believers, these "traders" still need to be "cleared out". You therefore conclude that the fulfillment lies in the future.

Well, the reader will know that Jesus' action constituted a fulfillment - you seem to simply (and arbitrarily) re-define it as a "fore-shadow", not a fulfillment. But is what it is - the prophecy speaks of a clearing of the temple of traders. And that is precisely what Jesus did.

Zechariah 14 shows the in-gathering of the Gentiles into the people of God (verses 16-19). Paul clearly sees this as happening at the time of Christ (see Romans 11, just as one example).

How are you going to deal with that? Are you going to deny that Paul is declaring the fullfillment of that ingathering prophecy and argue that it is a "foreshadow" of another ingathering in the future?

With your line of thinking, you can dismiss any fulfillment as a fore-shadow of a future fulfillment. Do you not see the problem with this?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Now note this from Matthew 21:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Jesus is fulfilling Zechariah 14 with this temple-clearing action. Unless you are going to believe that the temple will be rebuilt and cleared yet again, it seems implausible that Zechariah 14 refers to future events. Jesus knows his scriptures – it stretches credulity to think that He does not know that in clearing the temple, He is fulfilling Zechariah 14.

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

What I see,,, is that you seem not to understand types and shadows,,,,types and shadows are basically small previews of what is to come,,,,,so you need to stop calling tpes and shadows the actual fulfillment of events.........

ok

Many, perhaps most, Christians think that the prophecies in Zechariah 14 – prophecies of a great war in Jerusalem with God coming to the rescue in person – have yet to be fulfilled. I disagree with this interpretation.

Consider the very last sentence of the chapter as rendered in the NET:

On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all.

What is the "house" of the Lord? It is the temple. And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

The house of the Lord is a temple???? ummmmm

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

YOu go ahead and let those verses rest in your brain......

[And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:
/quote]

O NO my friend it is much more than that....

The word Canaanite as 2 meanings and you must look at the scripture and apply it correctly,,,,Canaanite means "poor of the flock". this is refering to the "kenites" the "kenites" were the merchants of the house of God,,,,these "kenites" are the traffickers of sheep.....

The word Canaanite is alos used to show uncleaness......

Both meanings apply to Zech 14:21,, so when you say Christ cleansed the temple,, you are saying that these "kenites" are no more.....Wrong!!!!!!!!!!

These "Kenites" claim to be of Judah,,,they claim to be "Jews" but lie...

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

You better wake up brh,,,,,They are also written about in the "parable of the tares" for the kenites are the tares,,,,and they will not be gathered up until harvest,,,,,is it harvest yet?????? NO.......

But lets be real,,,even this thread comes from your mislead idea that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 have already come to pass,,,so your trying to squeeze these future events into the past......

 

[whirlwind]

Are traders now in the house of the Lord or is everyone claiming to be of God...of God?

You are engaging in a funny kind of exegesis. You deny the manifest fact that there is a prophecy about clearing merchants from the temple - a prophecy which Jesus clearly fulfilled, and most certainly knew He was fulfilling.

Drew, I don't deny the prophecy at all nor do I deny Jesus definitely "cleared the temple." I deny that it was the final clearing because the traders at still busy buying and selling.

You then seem to argue that since the temple is now the human being, and since some humans are not believers, these "traders" still need to be "cleared out". You therefore conclude that the fulfillment lies in the future.

Yes, that is true except it isn't that I see unbelievers as the "traders." The traders are those that work for Satan. I see them as those Jesus spoke to when He said, "ye do the deeds of your father." [John 8:41]

Well, the reader will know that Jesus' action constituted a fulfillment - you seem to simply (and arbitrarily) re-define it as a "fore-shadow", not a fulfillment. But is what it is - the prophecy speaks of a clearing of the temple of traders. And that is precisely what Jesus did.

Yes, He did but the prophecy stated....."On that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord who rules over all."

Zechariah 14 shows the in-gathering of the Gentiles into the people of God (verses 16-19). Paul clearly sees this as happening at the time of Christ (see Romans 11, just as one example).

How are you going to deal with that? Are you going to deny that Paul is declaring the fullfillment of that ingathering prophecy and argue that it is a "foreshadow" of another ingathering in the future?

It is ongoing.

With your line of thinking, you can dismiss any fulfillment as a fore-shadow of a future fulfillment. Do you not see the problem with this?

No.

 

[Drew]

What I see,,, is that you seem not to understand types and shadows,,,,types and shadows are basically small previews of what is to come,,,,,so you need to stop calling tpes and shadows the actual fulfillment of events.........

Please tell us on what basis you deem an event that otherwise appears to be a fulfillment of prophecy, to be instead merely a fore-shadowing. I suggest that you are really engaging in circular argument - assuming that the true fulfillment of the Zech 14 prophecy lies in the future, and then leveraging that assumption to interpret the earlier "fulfilment" as a fore-shadow, rather than a "real" fulfillment.

Think of where such reasoning leads. Suppose there was this prophecy that a black man will become President at age 48, that he will be a Harvard graduate, have 2 daughters, a wife named Michelle, etc, etc.

If someone suggested that Barack Obama indeed fulfills that prophecy, you always have the "out" of suggesting that Mr. Obama is only a "type" or a "fore-shadow" -and that the "real" fulfillment has yet to take place.

Yet, of course, anyone not otherwise committed to a different fulfillment would understand that Mr. Obama would indeed be a fulfillment of that prophecy.

 

[Drew]

The house of the Lord is a temple???? ummmmm

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

YOu go ahead and let those verses rest in your brain......

Your argument is incorrect.

This side of the cross, the temple is indeed the human person. But it was not so when Zechariah made his prophecy. And there is plenty of Old Testament precedent for the use of the word "house" to denote the temple.

So it is entirely coherent for the Zechariah 14 prophecy to refer to the temple building and for that prophecy to have been fulfilled in the temple-clearing action of Jesus.

 

[Drew]

And what is a Canaanite? It is a merchant or trader. Note how the NRSV translates this last sentence:

O NO my friend it is much more than that....

The word Canaanite as 2 meanings and you must look at the scripture and apply it correctly,,,,Canaanite means "poor of the flock". this is refering to the "kenites" the "kenites" were the merchants of the house of God,,,,these "kenites" are the traffickers of sheep.....

The word Canaanite is alos used to show uncleaness......

The word Canaanite here at the end of Zechariah denotes a "trader" or merchant, and therefore this text works perfectly well as a prophecy of Jesus' clearing. But, please, do not take my word for it. here is what the NET translators have to say on the meaning of the term "Canaanite":

“merchantâ€Â; “trader†because Canaanites, especially Phoenicians, were merchants and traders;

 

[Drew]

Drew, I don't deny the prophecy at all nor do I deny Jesus definitely "cleared the temple." I deny that it was the final clearing because the traders at still busy buying and selling.

You seem to accept that (1) the Zech 14 material is a prophecy about clearing a "temple"; and (2) that Jesus cleared the temple.

Yet you deny that what Jesus did was a fulfillment of the prophecy:

He did not fulfill the prophecy...He gave us an example, a shadow, a type of what the fulfillment will be "on that day."

I trust you realize that when a prophecy says "X will happen" and then X does happen, that constitutes a fulfillment of that prophecy. You seem to be arbitrarily denying this and saying that the "real" fulfillment lies in the future.

 

[Drew]

Jesus quotes from Zechariah 13 when, in Matthew 26, He predicts that the disciples will abandon him as he goes to the cross:

I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered

What does this tell us? It strengthens the argument that Jesus is fulfilling the Zechariah 14:4 prophecy when he sits on the Mount of Olive and predicts judgement on Jerusalem. The Matthew 26:31 text shows that Jesus sees himself in the role of Zechariah’s shepherd. The shepherd image in the Old Testament is often applied to God. And in Zechariah 14, we have God becoming king. These are compelling reasons to think that Jesus sees Himself as playing the role of the divine kingly ruler of Zechariah 14.

 

[Sinthesis]

Strange as it may seem, both of your views are somewhat correct.

Jesus clearing the temple was a shadow of the fulfillment of the Zechariah 14:21 prophecy that was realized in the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ and it's earthly representation in the Christian Church. While one could be born into the Jewish temple system of the first century and counted a Jew regardless of one's true beliefs, membership in the Church Christ built is dependent on belief. Insincere belief won't get you in; belief in a false messiah won't get you in. Jesus knows the truth of the matter. The most despicable televangelists of today may profess Christianity, but Jesus knows who is in their hearts, and to whose synagogue they really belong.

 

[whirlwind]

Drew, I don't deny the prophecy at all nor do I deny Jesus definitely "cleared the temple." I deny that it was the final clearing because the traders at still busy buying and selling.

You seem to accept that (1) the Zech 14 material is a prophecy about clearing a "temple"; and (2) that Jesus cleared the temple.

Yet you deny that what Jesus did was a fulfillment of the prophecy:

He did not fulfill the prophecy...He gave us an example, a shadow, a type of what the fulfillment will be "on that day."

I trust you realize that when a prophecy says "X will happen" and then X does happen, that constitutes a fulfillment of that prophecy. You seem to be arbitrarily denying this and saying that the "real" fulfillment lies in the future.

We have not yet reached, "THAT DAY." The day hasn't yet arrived, the traders are still in the temple so.....The fulfillment does lie in the future.

 

[D4Christ]

The Zechariah 14 prophecies were fulfilled in the work of Jesus 2000 years ago. The great Jerusalem battle in Zechariah 14 turns out to have been the defeat of the devil on the cross and the return of God to win the battle took the form of a solitary figure going to that cross.

Hi Drew,

You stated that the last line of Zech 14 was fulfilled, thereby causing the entire prophecy of Zech 14 to have been fulfilled. So can you point me to scriptures or historical events that show the other prophecies contained within Zech 14 have also been fulfilled?

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.
2. YHWH then arrives with His Holy Ones.
3. The sources of light no longer shine creating a continuous day.
4. Life-giving waters flow from Jerusalem towards the Dead Sea and the Meditteranian.
5. YHWH is king over the earth and His name is the only one worshiped.
6. The land north of Judah and south of Jerusalem will become one vast plain and raising Jerusalem up to its original place.
7. Jerusalem is safe.
8. YHWH sends plagues against the nations who fought Jerusalem.
9. Judah will fight at Jerusalem and the wealth of the nations taken.
10. Surviving enemies of Jerusalem go to Jerusalem to worship YHWH and celebrate the Festival of Shelters.
11. Nations refusing to go are struck with drought.
12. No traders in the Temple.

If Zech 14 has indeed been fulfilled then somewhere in scripture or by historic account, some of the prophecies other than #12 should have been recorded at some time.

I'm curious as to what sources you can show me that support your theory.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Drew]

We have not yet reached, "THAT DAY." The day hasn't yet arrived, the traders are still in the temple so.....The fulfillment does lie in the future.

This is begging the question - merely stating a position rather than defending it.

On what actual basis do you conclude that "that day" has not yet come. You cannot say "because traders are in the temple" as a answer. Why not? Well, because I can point to a historical "that day" - the day that Jesus cleared the temple - and show that the prophecy was fulfilled then.

The best you can argue for is that there will be double fulfillment.

 

[Drew]

Strange as it may seem, both of your views are somewhat correct.

Jesus clearing the temple was a shadow of the fulfillment of the Zechariah 14:21 prophecy that was realized in the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ and it's earthly representation in the Christian Church.

I actually agree with this and would modify my position to incorporate this addition.

Sinthesis, I believe that Zech 14 is about the events of the 1st century, not future events. What do you think?

 

[Drew]

You stated that the last line of Zech 14 was fulfilled, thereby causing the entire prophecy of Zech 14 to have been fulfilled.

I do not think I ever wrote this and if I did, it was a mistake on my part. I believe that the bit about clearing the temple is just one item of several items of evidence for a 1st century fulfillment of Zech 14.

So can you point me to scriptures or historical events that show the other prophecies contained within Zech 14 have also been fulfilled?

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.

Where is Jesus when we makes the famous discourse in Matthew 24 about the coming battle in Jerusalem?

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (E)Your coming, and of the end of the age?"