Zechariah 14

[Drew]

So can you point me to scriptures or historical events that show the other prophecies contained within Zech 14 have also been fulfilled?

5. YHWH is king over the earth and His name is the only one worshiped.

If Zech 14 has indeed been fulfilled then somewhere in scripture or by historic account, some of the prophecies other than #12 should have been recorded at some time.

I'm curious as to what sources you can show me that support your theory.

Blessings,
Deirdre

Indeed, Zechariah 14 does speak of YHWH becoming King:

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only (P)one, and His name the only one.

I will argue that through a cryptic statement made to Caiaphus at His trial, Jesus declares that YHWH has become king, thereby fulfilling the Jewish expectation about this. Note what Jesus says in response to Caiaphus:

But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

The reference to sitting at the right hand of power comes from Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand

The “coming with the clouds of heaven†statement is an allusion to this material from Daniel 7:

I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the (O)hair of His head like pure wool
His (P)throne was ablaze with flames,
Its (Q)wheels were a burning fire.
10"A river of (R)fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
(S)Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The (T)court sat,
And (U)the books were opened.
11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the (V)burning fire.
12"As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given (X)dominion,
Glory and (Y)a kingdom,
(Z)That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
(AA)His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
(AB)And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

From both these references, it is clear that Jesus intends Caiaphus to see Him (Jesus) in the role of the Son of Man figure who gets presented to the Ancient of Days (YHWH) and takes the other of the two thrones (note the multiplicity of thrones in the Daniel material).

Among the many rich implications of this passage we have this: In this scenario, YHWH gets seated (apart from what happens to the Son of Man figure). This is a clear allusion to the enthronement of YHWH, fulfilling the deeply held, and scripturally sustained, Jewish expectation that YHWH will, at some point, become King of all the world.

This is precisely what Zech 14 is saying - YHWH has become king.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

It is made very clear that the prophecy of zech 14 is the time of the " Day of the Lord" which is yet future, Jesus did do a foreshadow when he cleaned out the temple but it was just that, a foreshadow of when these people will be cut out of the body of Christ who is the house of God in the end at the Day of the Lord.

How can we know that this is about the future and not the past? Because this verse of this chapter was for sure not applied yet, but will be in the future

Zec 14:11 And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

If you are saying that the house of God spoken of is the literal temple back then, then you must also say that this is the city of jerusalem physically also and of that same time. The problem is not only was that city spoken of as being bondage, but there was utter destruction in 70 ad and it was not safely inhabited.- These are future events, but Jesus did give us a foreshadow.

 

[Drew]

Jesus did do a foreshadow when he cleaned out the temple but it was just that, a foreshadow of when these people will be cut out of the body of Christ who is the house of God in the end at the Day of the Lord.

It seems rather odd to have a prophecy - that the temple will be cleared - followed by an act that clearly fulfills the prophecy - the clearing of the temple by Jesus, and then to call that a foreshadowing.

How can we know that this is about the future and not the past? Because this verse of this chapter was for sure not applied yet, but will be in the future

Zec 14:11 And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

If you are saying that the house of God spoken of is the literal temple back then, then you must also say that this is the city of jerusalem physically also and of that same time. The problem is not only was that city spoken of as being bondage, but there was utter destruction in 70 ad and it was not safely inhabited.- These are future events, but Jesus did give us a foreshadow.

I appreciate that you are engaging the texts and making a solid point. I think, though, that we can legitimately see this prophecy as having already been fulfilled.

First, a response to this statement from you:

If you are saying that the house of God spoken of is the literal temple back then, then you must also say that this is the city of jerusalem physically also and of that same time

I do not think you can apply this “rule†– not all elements of a single prophetic texts need to be “literalâ€Â. There are example where this a rather obvious mixture of literal and “symbolic†elements to a prophecy. When Daniel says “I saw four beasts come up out of the sea†(Daniel 7.2), the “beasts†and the “sea†are metaphorical (the “beasts†are human empires, and the “sea†is the source of evil), but “four†is literal. When he says that “the little horn was making war on the holy ones and prevailed against them†(7.21), the “little horn†is metaphorical (referring to an actual human ruler), but the “war†is literal. And so on. So there is no problem in me asserting that the temple clearing element of the Zech 14 material is a literal event, whereas the reference to a “safely inhabited Jerusalem†does notrefer to a literal “physical†Jerusalem.

I will shortly provide arguments as to how we can see the Zech 14:11 prophecy as having already been fulfilled.

 

[Drew]

Here is a prophecy extracted from Zechariah 14:

…but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Consider the allusion to Zechariah 8 that is made in 14:11 through the phrase “there will no longer be a curseâ€Â. Here is the material:

11 But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past," declares the LORD Almighty. 12 "The seed will grow well, the vine will yield its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people. 13 As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong."

When is Israel seen to be a blessing? It is precisely when Jesus acts as Israel on the Cross, fulfilling Israel’s role to be a blessing to the nations. This has already happened. (Note: Perhaps the reader will dispute this claim about Jesus taking on the role of Israel. That is a complex discussion, but I am willing to get into it).

Paul certainly sees that Israel has blessed the nations at the cross. From Romans 11 where it is clear from context that the broken branches are Jews and the “I†is the Gentile:

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right,

So seeing the Zechariah 14:11 reference to the “rescue†of Jerusalem as having already been fulfilled coheres perfectly well the Biblical theme of Israel blessing to the nations through Jesus action on the cross. Now I am perfectly aware the “there will no longer be a curse†image also connects to Rev 22, where most people would say that future events are at issue. Fair enough – I am not claiming to have an “airtight†solution, and I am not opposed (at present) to “double fulfillmentâ€Â. For the present, I am really only constructing a plausibility argument that Zech 14:11 can be seen as having been fulfilled in the past (even if there is another sense in which it is fulfilled in the future).

There are more allusions in the Zech 14:11 text which support the assertion that it has already been fulfilled. I will address these in later posts.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

The bible states 1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Whats so hard to understand about this?????? The bible is clear,,,and your notions Drew are confusing and dont line up at all......

If the day of the Lord has passed,,,,, please show me a day in history where all people were changed from there flesh bodys to there spirutual ones........

 

[Drew]

The bible states 1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Whats so hard to understand about this?????? The bible is clear,,,and your notions Drew are confusing and dont line up at all......

[
I agree that this event lies in the future. Please tell me specifically where I have presented any material that denies this or otherwise is inconsistent with scriptural material.

If the day of the Lord has passed,,,,, please show me a day in history where all people were changed from there flesh bodys to there spirutual ones........

Your question assumes that the "day of the Lord" is the day when the events described in this material from 1 Corinthians. As you know, I believe that the "day of the Lord" denotes another day - one already in the past.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

The bible states 1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Whats so hard to understand about this?????? The bible is clear,,,and your notions Drew are confusing and dont line up at all......

[
I agree that this event lies in the future. Please tell me specifically where I have presented any material that denies this or otherwise is inconsistent with scriptural material.

If the day of the Lord has passed,,,,, please show me a day in history where all people were changed from there flesh bodys to there spirutual ones........

Your question assumes that the "day of the Lord" is the day when the events described in this material from 1 Corinthians. As you know, I believe that the "day of the Lord" denotes another day - one already in the past.

I dont know if your famialiar with revelation,,,I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"but the last trump is the 7th and like I posted this happens.....In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

SO at the 7th trump all will be changed,,,,,on the day of the Lord all will be changed,,,,,has "all" ever been changed Drew??????NO

also

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Again have you seen Christ??????? Have all kindred wailed because of His return???????

SO lets not beat around the bush,,,if the day of the Lord happened already what day was it,,,,,,,,,what time frame did it cover???????

Well I can say you dont understand the parable of the fig tree because if you did you probably wouldnt be holding on to this ridiculous doctrine......so heres a crash course,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

First notice Christ commanded to learn this,,,,,He did not ask,,,,,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

FIg trees are not just poped in the ground,,,, there placed in shoots were the tree forms and then it sprouts the leaves......You know the shoot is tender when the leaves come....

Please read Jeremiah 24 for details on the return of Judah to Jerusalem,,,,,you will see that the prophecy was fulfilled in 1948,,,,,,,the bible is clear that the return to Jerusalem/Judea would be before the day of the Lord,,,,,so that leaves you a 61 year window to place the Day of the Lord in.......

Well I been around for 20 some odd years and there aint been no day of the Lord since the 1980's so now you have about a 35 year window to place the day of the Lord in......Unless you want to say the Day of the Lord happen before the return to Jerusalem.....Nah you wouldnt say that you would get ripped....

 

[Drew]

I dont know if your famialiar with revelation,,,I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"but the last trump is the 7th and like I posted this happens.....In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

SO at the 7th trump all will be changed,,,,,on the day of the Lord all will be changed,,,,,has "all" ever been changed Drew??????NO

Well I agree that there is a trumpet in the 1 Corinthians account, but I have no reason to accept your assertion that this trumpet has to be the 7th trumpet. Or that such a 7th trumpet refers to an event in the future. I am not very familiar with Revelation (yet) but I suspect, repeat suspect, that I will see much of it as already fulfilled (I say this because I know of theologians who I otherwise respect who generally hold to such a position).

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Again have you seen Christ??????? Have all kindred wailed because of His return???????

As you should know if you have read all my posts, I think that there is a huge problem with taking the "cometh with the clouds" image as denoting a return from heaven to earth on the part of Jesus. If you look up what the image denotes in its original context, Daniel 7, it refers to an upward motion from earth to heaven followed by taking a seat next to the ancient of days - a kind of "vindication / enthronement after suffering" scenario. And, of course, such an image matches the events of the 1st century – Jesus resurrection, enthronement as King, and vindication in respect to his prophecies of coming judgement against Israel within a generation.

So while I have yet to study the Revelation text you provide, I predict that a strong case can be made that it indeed refers to events already passed.

I notice that people seem perfectly comfortable with ignoring how the “coming on the clouds†image is actually used in the Scriptures and assume that a literal “coming down out of the sky†reading. I choose to interpret the image in a manner consistent with Old Testament use, others do not.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I dont know if your famialiar with revelation,,,I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"but the last trump is the 7th and like I posted this happens.....In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

SO at the 7th trump all will be changed,,,,,on the day of the Lord all will be changed,,,,,has "all" ever been changed Drew??????NO

Well I agree that there is a trumpet in the 1 Corinthians account, but I have no reason to accept your assertion that this trumpet has to be the 7th trumpet. Or that such a 7th trumpet refers to an event in the future. I am not very familiar with Revelation (yet) but I suspect, repeat suspect, that I will see much of it as already fulfilled (I say this because I know of theologians who I otherwise respect who generally hold to such a position).

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Again have you seen Christ??????? Have all kindred wailed because of His return???????

As you should know if you have read all my posts, I think that there is a huge problem with taking the "cometh with the clouds" image as denoting a return from heaven to earth on the part of Jesus. If you look up what the image denotes in its original context, Daniel 7, it refers to an upward motion from earth to heaven followed by taking a seat next to the ancient of days - a kind of "vindication / enthronement after suffering" scenario. And, of course, such an image matches the events of the 1st century – Jesus resurrection, enthronement as King, and vindication in respect to his prophecies of coming judgement against Israel within a generation.

So while I have yet to study the Revelation text you provide, I predict that a strong case can be made that it indeed refers to events already passed.

I notice that people seem perfectly comfortable with ignoring how the “coming on the clouds†image is actually used in the Scriptures and assume that a literal “coming down out of the sky†reading. I choose to interpret the image in a manner consistent with Old Testament use, others do not.

We can look at every single word that came out of the mouth of Christ on the mount and I assure you,,,you are worng regarding Christ return,,,,sorry I have not read all your post but I have read alot of them.....

Ok

Well I agree that there is a trumpet in the 1 Corinthians account, but I have no reason to accept your assertion that this trumpet has to be the 7th trumpet. Or that such a 7th trumpet refers to an event in the future. I am not very familiar with Revelation (yet) but I suspect, repeat suspect, that I will see much of it as already fulfilled (I say this because I know of theologians who I otherwise respect who generally hold to such a position).

I think your trippin on this one,,, you could have linked this up easily.....

notice

6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

1-----2------3------4------5-------6--------7 the trumps are covered from chp 8 -10

there are 7 trumps so that makes the last trumpth the 7th......therefor

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (last trump)

I think once you dive in to revelation (regardless of your teacher) your gonna find out it doesnt match your thinking now,,,therefor you will be forced to choose............

 

[Drew]

Well I can say you dont understand the parable of the fig tree because if you did you probably wouldnt be holding on to this ridiculous doctrine......so heres a crash course,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

First notice Christ commanded to learn this,,,,,He did not ask,,,,,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

FIg trees are not just poped in the ground,,,, there placed in shoots were the tree forms and then it sprouts the leaves......You know the shoot is tender when the leaves come....

The fig tree image you refer to works perfectly with my interpretation.

What is the context? Jesus and his disciples are looking at the temple that wound up destroyed in 70 AD. They were asking a question about that temple, not some other temple. The disciples than ask him when the temple – the one they are looking at, mind you – will be destroyed. And it is precisely this setting that we get the fig tree teaching.

Given all this, I suggest that it is not me who is adopting a “ridiculous†doctrine. It is not me who is assuming that Jesus is not answering their question, but is answering an entirely different question, ignoring the disciple’s question about the temple then standing squarely in their line of vision.

Immediately after giving the fig tree teaching, what does Jesus say about the timing. That the fig tree will bloom in 2000 or more years? No. He says this:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

You imply that I hold to a ridiculous doctrine. Well it is not me who has Jesus saying “this generation†to his listeners and intending them to understand that He means “this generation plus 2000 or more years†or “some other generation than this oneâ€Â.

So please, enlighten us. Why would Jesus, as he looks from the Mount of Olives across the Kidron valley at the temple standing there – declare its destruction and actually be referring to temple other than the one destroyed in 70 AD?

And why would Jesus declare to people standing right in front of Him that this generation would see all these events, if He actually was talking about some distant future generation?

 

[Drew]

I think your trippin on this one,,, you could have linked this up easily.....

notice

6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

1-----2------3------4------5-------6--------7 the trumps are covered from chp 8 -10

there are 7 trumps so that makes the last trumpth the 7th......therefor

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (last trump)

Patently incorrect logic. You have given the reader no reason to believe that the "last" trump of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet in the particular sequence in the Revelation account of 7 trumpets.

But let's assume that it is the last trump in that seqeunce. How, and please be precise, would that work against anything I have posted in this or other threads?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Well I can say you dont understand the parable of the fig tree because if you did you probably wouldnt be holding on to this ridiculous doctrine......so heres a crash course,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

First notice Christ commanded to learn this,,,,,He did not ask,,,,,,,,

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"

FIg trees are not just poped in the ground,,,, there placed in shoots were the tree forms and then it sprouts the leaves......You know the shoot is tender when the leaves come....

The fig tree image you refer to works perfectly with my interpretation.

What is the context? Jesus and his disciples are looking at the temple that wound up destroyed in 70 AD. They were asking a question about that temple, not some other temple. The disciples than ask him when the temple – the one they are looking at, mind you – will be destroyed. And it is precisely this setting that we get the fig tree teaching.

Given all this, I suggest that it is not me who is adopting a “ridiculous†doctrine. It is not me who is assuming that Jesus is not answering their question, but is answering an entirely different question, ignoring the disciple’s question about the temple then standing squarely in their line of vision.

Immediately after giving the fig tree teaching, what does Jesus say about the timing. That the fig tree will bloom in 2000 or more years? No. He says this:

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

You imply that I hold to a ridiculous doctrine. Well it is not me who has Jesus saying “this generation†to his listeners and intending them to understand that He means “this generation plus 2000 or more years†or “some other generation than this oneâ€Â.

So please, enlighten us. Why would Jesus, as he looks from the Mount of Olives across the Kidron valley at the temple standing there – declare its destruction and actually be referring to temple other than the one destroyed in 70 AD?

And why would Jesus declare to people standing right in front of Him that this generation would see all these events, if He actually was talking about some distant future generation?

ummmm Drew

Christ is talking about the generation of the fig tree,,,,,what generation is the generation of the fig tree???? It is this generation Drew,,,,it is the generation that would be alive after the returning of Judah to Judea........SO when Christ says:::: This generation will not pass,,,he is talking about the generation of the fig tree 1948 and up ,,,,and it wont pass until all those things happen.....

I think what your missing,,, is the disciples asked Jesus questions regarding our lifetime not theres....and not 70ad.......

 

[Drew]

Christ is talking about the generation of the fig tree,,,,,

Agree and he clearly says that it is this generation. Now what would a normal listener understand if some speaker was talking to them about future events and concluded with "this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished?

They would conclude, of course, that he was talking about their generation.

what generation is the generation of the fig tree???? It is this generation Drew,,,,it is the generation that would be alive after the returning of Judah to Judea........SO when Christ says:::: This generation will not pass,,,he is talking about the generation of the fig tree 1948 and up ,,,,and it wont pass until all those things happen.....

This is circular reasoning. You make no argument as to why the generation in question is the "1948 and up" generation. You simply assume it and draw your conclusion from that.

I think what your missing,,, is the disciples asked Jesus questions regarding our lifetime not theres....and not 70ad.......

This makes no sense.

Remember: the disciples asked Jesus a question about the temple that stood in front of them – they were all looking at it as the very question was posed. So why would Jesus tell them about the destruction of a different temple in response to their question.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I think your trippin on this one,,, you could have linked this up easily.....

notice

6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

1-----2------3------4------5-------6--------7 the trumps are covered from chp 8 -10

there are 7 trumps so that makes the last trumpth the 7th......therefor

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (last trump)

Patently incorrect logic. You have given the reader no reason to believe that the "last" trump of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet in the particular sequence in the Revelation account of 7 trumpets.

But let's assume that it is the last trump in that seqeunce. How, and please be precise, would that work against anything I have posted in this or other threads?

The 7th trump is the last unless you can go through the scriptures and find a 8th.....

The 7th is the return of Christ and we can look at the scriptures to conclude this......

SO for your theory to be true you are saying the 7th trump has blown whether you no it or not,,,,,so now all we have to do is look at what happens during the 7th trump and see if these things have happen.....I have already done it ,,,and NO the 7th trump has not blown,,,,,darn!! gotta head out I will pick it back up in a bit,,,,,peace.....

 

[Drew]

The 7th trump is the last unless you can go through the scriptures and find a 8th.....

You simply assume that the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet of the particular sequence described in Revelation (however, I qualify this criticism as per below).

The 7th is the return of Christ and we can look at the scriptures to conclude this......

You need to do 2 things.

1. Make an actual case that the 7th trumpet denotes 2nd coming of Christ, remembering that you need to eliminate the possibility of the "coming into kingship, yet not literally coming to us from heaven" interpretation as being the intended sense of the "coming" of Christ.

2. Show how this is inconsistent with anything that I have said about Zech 14.

 

[Drew]

There are other allusions in the Zechariah 14:10-11 text that suggest that the prophecy has already been fulfilled. Consider the statement about the rising of Jerusalem in verse 10 (“Jerusalem will riseâ€Â):

All the land will be changed into a plain from (Q)Geba to (R)Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security

This evokes this text from Isaiah 2:

The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.
3And many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The “house of the Lord†is a way of speaking about the temple. So the mountain is Mount Zion. Now consider this prophetic material from Daniel 2 – a text which was historically was interpreted with the Messiah set in the role of the stone that becomes a mountain that fills the whole earth:

You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome.
32"The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34"You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Now notice this cryptic saying from Jesus in Mark 12:

Have you not even read this Scripture:
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Jesus is talking about himself here, setting Himself in the role of the Messianic “stone†from Daniel 2 and re-asserting his theme of imminent destruction of the temple, with Jesus Himself serving as the “new templeâ€Â.

I suggest that it is highly plausible that the Zech 14:10-11 material – with its allusion to the “rise†of Jerusalem – is really a prophecy about how Jesus will replace the temple and become a “temple†that extends out into the whole world.

In this respect notice how Zechariah 14 goes on immediately to talk about Gentiles streaming into Jerusalem. This strengthens the legitimacy of my connecting the Zechariah 14 reference to the “rise†of Jerusalem to the Isaiah 2 material – both texts refer to raising up of Jerusalem (the Isaianic material is somewhat veiled in this regard through the allusion to the “house of the Lord on the mountain, but the connection is still there) and both texts deal with the in-gathering of the Gentiles. It is therefore likely that the same event is being described in both cases/

We know that Old Testament prophecy gives the Jews the covenant role of being a blessing to the nations, and, importantly, we know that Paul sees the work of Jesus 2000 years ago as fulfilling that very role (this has already been dealt with).

I suggest that careful consideration of the scriptural image of the mountain as the Jerusalem temple, the “stone that becomes a mountain†as a Messianic reference, and Jesus self-ascription of the role that very stone supports the position that the “rise of Jerusalem†allusion is to the events of the 1st century, when Jesus indeed became the cornerstone of the new temple and effected the in-gathering of the Gentiles into the people of God.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

The 7th trump is the last unless you can go through the scriptures and find a 8th.....

You simply assume that the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet of the particular sequence described in Revelation (however, I qualify this criticism as per below).

The 7th is the return of Christ and we can look at the scriptures to conclude this......

You need to do 2 things.

1. Make an actual case that the 7th trumpet denotes 2nd coming of Christ, remembering that you need to eliminate the possibility of the "coming into kingship, yet not literally coming to us from heaven" interpretation as being the intended sense of the "coming" of Christ.

2. Show how this is inconsistent with anything that I have said about Zech 14.

1. Make an actual case that the 7th trumpet denotes 2nd coming of Christ, remembering that you need to eliminate the possibility of the "coming into kingship, yet not literally coming to us from heaven" interpretation as being the intended sense of the "coming" of Christ.

Give me a sec...........

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Alright,,,notice that there are 7 trumps.....Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Lets fast forward to the end of the sixth......

13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Ok this is the end of the 6th trump and the chapter.......So we pick it up in Revelation 10......

Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Alright the first 2 things we need to come to terms with,,,,is who this angel is (I say Christ) and if you agree the 6th trump ended at the close of the 9th chp.........

 

[Vic C.]

Ever since I read this and other accounts similar to this:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

I'm not certain the seventh angelic trumpet of Revelation has anything to do with the timing of the parousia or the resurrection.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Ever since I read this and other accounts similar to this:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

I'm not certain the seventh angelic trumpet of Revelation has anything to do with the timing of the parousia or the resurrection.

I cant see why not,,,,,,The seventh trump is the signal that Christ returns to the earth.....If you dont believe that,,,then I could see how you might not make the connection.....

When Christ returns all we be changed,,,,all will be in spiritual bodys,,,but only a few will be immortal,,the rest will have to wait on the second resurrection.....