Zechariah 14

[whirlwind]

We have not yet reached, "THAT DAY." The day hasn't yet arrived, the traders are still in the temple so.....The fulfillment does lie in the future.

This is begging the question - merely stating a position rather than defending it.

On what actual basis do you conclude that "that day" has not yet come. You cannot say "because traders are in the temple" as a answer. Why not? Well, because I can point to a historical "that day" - the day that Jesus cleared the temple - and show that the prophecy was fulfilled then.

The best you can argue for is that there will be double fulfillment.

God's Word points to the "future" day when all prophecy will be fulfilled. I have always argued that we are given types for what will be.

 

[Drew]

God's Word points to the "future" day when all prophecy will be fulfilled. I have always argued that we are given types for what will be.

You are begging the question - do you not realize this?

Please tell us precisely on what basis you believe that a prophecy written by Zechariah more than 2000 years ago must be fulfilled in our future, and could not have already been fulfilled.

Here is an example of a prophecy from Zechariah that has already been fulfilled, or are you going to claim that this is merely a "type"?:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey

Did Jesus not fulfill this very prophecy 2000 years ago?

 

[Drew]

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.

As per an earlier post, I suggest this prophecy was fulfilled as Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24) and warned them of the coming destruction of Jerusalem - an event that took place in 70 AD - just as Jesus says, within one generation. He urges his disciples to flee the Romans in Matthew 24 in statements like this one:

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

This is not end times - it is about the coming attack of Rome.

2. YHWH then arrives with His Holy Ones.

Is Jesus ministry not the promised return of YHWH to Zion? I think it clearly is. So when Jesus arrives, that is the arrival of YHWH. One of the great threads of Jewish expectation is that YHWH will return to Zion. That is precisely what Jesus did 2000 years - He was YHWH returning to Zion. And yet, as Jesus sadly observes, the people did not realize it:

When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

 

[NIGHTMARE]

God's Word points to the "future" day when all prophecy will be fulfilled. I have always argued that we are given types for what will be.

You are begging the question - do you not realize this?

Please tell us precisely on what basis you believe that a prophecy written by Zechariah more than 2000 years ago must be fulfilled in our future, and could not have already been fulfilled.

Here is an example of a prophecy from Zechariah that has already been fulfilled, or are you going to claim that this is merely a "type"?:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey

Did Jesus not fulfill this very prophecy 2000 years ago?

Yes this was fulfilled 2000 years ago....

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

But the title of the thread is Zechariah 14 not Zechariah 9:9.....

Zechariah 14 gives a topic on what is going to be discussed,,,,and the topic is

Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

SO when is the day of the Lord????? Are you saying that it has already passed??????? I would hope not...

 

[D4Christ]

I do not think I ever wrote this and if I did, it was a mistake on my part. I believe that the bit about clearing the temple is just one item of several items of evidence for a 1st century fulfillment of Zech 14.

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.

Where is Jesus when we makes the famous discourse in Matthew 24 about the coming battle in Jerusalem?

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (E)Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

So, because Christ was sitting on the Mt. of Olives, that is your basis for a fulfillment of #1 on the list of Zech 14 prophecies? My brief research has indicated no split ever recorded to have taken place on this mountain, which is still used today.

What about prophecy #3? I'm interested in how you explain this in light of the word "continuosly." I'm on the east coast and the sun still sets over here.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Drew]

3. The sources of light no longer shine creating a continuous day.

You need to understand that this text is not to be taken literally. There is a long tradition in the Old Testament of such apocalyptic language being used to denote much more "commonplace" events. One needs to read such language in its Biblical setting. Old Testament writers evoked the cosmic or theological meaning of "normal" events by means of a sometimes complex system of metaphors. “The stars will not give their lightâ€Â, wrote Isaiah, “the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light†(Isaiah 13.10).

We know that this is a reference to the defeat of Babylon, an event that happened > 2000 years ago and was not accompanied by the stars, and the sun, and the moon, ceasing to shed their light.

Therefore, the fact that we have not observed a "continuous day" does not mean the Zechariah 14 prophecy has not been fulfilled already.

4. Life-giving waters flow from Jerusalem towards the Dead Sea and the Meditteranian.

Again, this is metaphorical language which I suggest denotes Jesus as the "river of life".

Here is the text from Zechariah
And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter

And now compare that with what Jesus says here:

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'

 

[NIGHTMARE]

I do not think I ever wrote this and if I did, it was a mistake on my part. I believe that the bit about clearing the temple is just one item of several items of evidence for a 1st century fulfillment of Zech 14.

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.

Where is Jesus when we makes the famous discourse in Matthew 24 about the coming battle in Jerusalem?

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (E)Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

So, because Christ was sitting on the Mt. of Olives, that is your basis for a fulfillment of #1 on the list of Zech 14 prophecies? My brief research has indicated no split ever recorded to have taken place on this mountain, which is still used today.

What about prophecy #3? I'm interested in how you explain this in light of the word "continuosly." I'm on the east coast and the sun still sets over here.

Blessings,
Deirdre

When going through Zechariah 14 we can just start picking verses that there is no way have or could have been fulfilled.....

 

[Drew]

When going through Zechariah 14 we can just start picking verses that there is no way have or could have been fulfilled.....

Please do your best, what material in Zechariah has not been fulfilled?

 

[NIGHTMARE]

1. YHWH places His feet on the Mount of Olives causing it to separate and create a valley for which His people can flee.

As per an earlier post, I suggest this prophecy was fulfilled as Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24) and warned them of the coming destruction of Jerusalem - an event that took place in 70 AD - just as Jesus says, within one generation. He urges his disciples to flee the Romans in Matthew 24 in statements like this one:

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

This is not end times - it is about the coming attack of Rome.

2. YHWH then arrives with His Holy Ones.

Is Jesus ministry not the promised return of YHWH to Zion? I think it clearly is. So when Jesus arrives, that is the arrival of YHWH. One of the great threads of Jewish expectation is that YHWH will return to Zion. That is precisely what Jesus did 2000 years - He was YHWH returning to Zion. And yet, as Jesus sadly observes, the people did not realize it:

When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Ok you are really losing it here buddy,,,,,learn to stick with the subject /topic stop creating your own,,,,for example,,,you said

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. [/color]

This is not end times - it is about the coming attack of Rome.

No why this is such a silly statement???????Because you are not staying on topic,,,,Christ is really easy to understand when your not trying to stick your theorys in......

You started from verse 17,,,,lets back up to verse 15,,,,,,,

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

AHHHHHHHH When you see the Abomination then you :::

Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

and when you see the abomination you :::

Matthew 24:17 "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:"

and when you see the abomination you :::::

Matthew 24:18 "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."

So Drew has the abomination of Desolation/desolator already happen??????has satan stood in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ???????and taking away the daily sacrifice??????? Please follow the subject and objects closely......

 

[Drew]

Yes this was fulfilled 2000 years ago....

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

But the title of the thread is Zechariah 14 not Zechariah 9:9.....

I am fully aware of this - I was simply responding to whirlwind's method of exegesis.

SO when is the day of the Lord????? Are you saying that it has already passed??????? I would hope not...

The "day of the Lord" has indeed passed - 2000 years ago.

Jesus announced the inauguration of God’s kingdom and yet also repeated a warning that if the nation of Israel did not turn from its present path, severe judgement would fall on the nation. What does Jeremiah say about the ‘Day of the Lord’? He says it would not consist in the salvation of Jerusalem from Babylon but in her destruction at Babylon’s hands. In perfect harmony with this tradition, Jesus warns, in texts like Matthew 24, that the coming of the kingdom will mean, within a generation, destruction for the nation, the city and the temple:

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

And, of course, Jesus’ prophecy came true.

I trust that we all understand that the “day of the Lord†cannot literally refer to a cataclysmic day of apocalyptic destruction. Is that what you think? Well, consider this from Paul’s own hand:

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

I suspect that most Christians think this is an allusion to end time events with the “day of the Lord†entailing spectacular, global apocalypse. I disagree. If Paul thought of the “day of the Lord†in such terms, how could the Thessalonians not be alarmed by the announcement of such a day. And yet Paul tells them not to be alarmed. A much better explanation is that Paul sees the “day of the Lord†as denoting the wrathful destruction of Jerusalem and the judgement that entails.

Such a reading has the huge advantage of how Paul could write such a warning in a letter to his contemporaries. From the perspective of AD 2009, we know that the 2nd coming has not yet taken place. You would have to believe that Paul expected it much, much sooner than that if he warned the Thessalonians about it in a letter. It makes more sense to believe that Paul saw the “day of the Lord†as coming judgement of Israel by the instrument of Rome.

And I have already argued elsewhere about the “coming†of Jesus can be legitimately read as his enthronement, which has already taken place. So there really is nothing that forces us to see this text as being about end time events.

 

[whirlwind]

God's Word points to the "future" day when all prophecy will be fulfilled. I have always argued that we are given types for what will be.

You are begging the question - do you not realize this?

Please tell us precisely on what basis you believe that a prophecy written by Zechariah more than 2000 years ago must be fulfilled in our future, and could not have already been fulfilled.

Here is an example of a prophecy from Zechariah that has already been fulfilled, or are you going to claim that this is merely a "type"?:

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey

Did Jesus not fulfill this very prophecy 2000 years ago?

Yes He did.

First Advent to bring salvation
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee: He is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Second Advent to claim His children, judge and make war:
9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and He shall speak peace unto the heathen: and His dominion shall be from sea, even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

What, or who, are the chariots and horses He will "cut off?"

• Zechariah 6:2-3 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
  
  Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him; and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Notice that the "horses" are IN the chariots. These are NOT literal horses or chariots. As they are the "horse and chariot" Jesus will "cut off" from Ephraim and Jerusalem we know who controls those horses and chariots. Their leader is the rider of the white horse in [6:2], the fake Christ.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

The "day of the Lord" has indeed passed - 2000 years ago.

O boy,,,,I dont no whether to laugh or be really concerned about you.....

O well see if you are correct in saying this::::::

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Please stay on subject here,,,,The topic is "the coming of Christ" aka day of the Lord....

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Now dont get jumpy about this day

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The man of sin is satan......and he has not been revealed yet.....

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

This as not happen yet,,,satan has not been revealed and he is not on earth claiming to be Christ at the moment,,,all these things must happen before the day of the Lord....

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye will see Him Drew,,,every eye,,,have you seen Christ????????????????????

 

[Drew]

The "day of the Lord" has indeed passed - 2000 years ago.

O boy,,,,I dont no whether to laugh or be really concerned about you.....

How about putting forward an argument that actually works - you have not done so yet. And I am about to undermine yet another of your arguments - the one about the abomination of desolation.

 

[D4Christ]

3. The sources of light no longer shine creating a continuous day.

You need to understand that this text is not to be taken literally. There is a long tradition in the Old Testament of such apocalyptic language being used to denote much more "commonplace" events. One needs to read such language in its Biblical setting. Old Testament writers evoked the cosmic or theological meaning of "normal" events by means of a sometimes complex system of metaphors. “The stars will not give their lightâ€Â, wrote Isaiah, “the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light†(Isaiah 13.10).

...Therefore, the fact that we have not observed a "continuous day" does not mean the Zechariah 14 prophecy has not been fulfilled already.

So when scriptures state...

6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

...we are not to believe the divine inspiration of the prophets but the musing of a 21st century critic?

I understand you're an amillennialist, so I will not waste any more of our time by posting scriptures that you conveniently explain away as myth. But I often wonder what if....what if you see an abomination standing on the Temple Mount in your lifetime and what if the Jews, who recently built an altar for the 3rd temple, start sacrficing... only to have those sacrfices stopped. Will you believe then or will you fall in line with the overwhelming deception described in 2 Thess 2. What if your figurative descriptions of scritpures you can't explain turn out to be true? What if Yahushua comes upon you like a thief in the night because you refused to "watch" for events you assumed already happened? What if others are taken and you are left?

Literally.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Drew]

So Drew has the abomination of Desolation/desolator already happen??????has satan stood in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ???????and taking away the daily sacrifice??????? Please follow the subject and objects closely......

You assume that I am making a blunder because I overlook the bit about the abomination of desolation. Obviously, I believe that the abomination of desolation prophecy has already been fulfilled. I believe that it is an allusion to Romans desecration of the temple in 70 AD.

Now let’s see how the Biblical evidence works in respect to your position -that the abomination is a future event, and my position, that it has already happened.

What is the context of the Matthew 24 discourse which is initiated by Jesus prediction of the destruction of the temple? It is a critique of the current generation of Israel. From Matthew 23:

35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

This is clearly a scathing indictment of the Israel of Jesus’ time. And there is the clear allusion to judgement against the temple (the “houseâ€Â) – as if Jesus temple-clearing action were not enough to send the message that judgement was being pronounced on the temple of that day. So when, in chapter 24, we get a restatement of the judgement against the temple, and a re-statement that the judgement will be seen by this generation, it is rather clear that Jesus is talking about a judgement that will befall Israel and the temple within a generation. And the abomination of desolation is set square in that timeframe.

Are you going to baldly assert that “this generation†really means “some other generation�

Also, the question posed by the disciples pertained to the temple then standing in Jerusalem, out of which they had just departed, at which they were then looking, and about whose prophesied destruction they were wondering. If Jesus is talking about another future temple, then He is engaged in a rather strange behaviour – not answering the actual question posed to Him. That seems rather unlikely.

 

[Drew]

So when scriptures state...

6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

...we are not to believe the divine inspiration of the prophets but the musing of a 21st century critic?

Do you not understand, as per my previous post, that the prophet Isaiah - not a 21st century "critic"- used the very same "stars not shining, sun not giving its light" language to refer to an event that all scholars will agree has already happened - the fall of Babylon? Did the stars fall when Babylon fell? Obviously not. If you are going to level this criticism at me, then you need to rebuke Isaiah as well.

Despite clear evidence to the contrary, Christians continue to insist to take such language literally when we know from Biblical precedent that this was never the intent. Here is yet another of many examples:

All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.

This is an allusion to judgement against Edom, judgement already carried out. Did the stars dissolve? No.

 

[Drew]

I understand you're an amillennialist, so I will not waste any more of our time by posting scriptures that you conveniently explain away as myth. But I often wonder what if....what if you see an abomination standing on the Temple Mount in your lifetime and what if the Jews, who recently built an altar for the 3rd temple, start sacrficing... only to have those sacrfices stopped. Will you believe then or will you fall in line with the overwhelming deception described in 2 Thess 2. What if your figurative descriptions of scritpures you can't explain turn out to be true? What if Yahushua comes upon you like a thief in the night because you refused to "watch" for events you assumed already happened? What if others are taken and you are left?

Well, if I turn out to be mistaken, I turn out to be mistaken.

But this speculation is just that - speculation. It is hardly an argument for the correctness of your position. And, of course, my explanations are no "convenient mythologizations" as you imply.

My arguments are clear and rational. Address them if you can, but please do not engage in the tired strategy of avoiding the content of the arguments and suggesting that I intentionally dismiss texts that do not sit well with my position.

Name one text that I have arbitrarily - that is without justification - transformed into myth.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

You assume that I am making a blunder because I overlook the bit about the abomination of desolation. Obviously, I believe that the abomination of desolation prophecy has already been fulfilled. I believe that it is an allusion to Romans desecration of the temple in 70 AD.

Now let’s see how the Biblical evidence works in respect to your position -that the abomination is a future event, and my position, that it has already happened.

 

[D4Christ]

I understand you're an amillennialist, so I will not waste any more of our time by posting scriptures that you conveniently explain away as myth. But I often wonder what if....what if you see an abomination standing on the Temple Mount in your lifetime and what if the Jews, who recently built an altar for the 3rd temple, start sacrficing... only to have those sacrfices stopped. Will you believe then or will you fall in line with the overwhelming deception described in 2 Thess 2. What if your figurative descriptions of scritpures you can't explain turn out to be true? What if Yahushua comes upon you like a thief in the night because you refused to "watch" for events you assumed already happened? What if others are taken and you are left?

Well, if I turn out to be mistaken, I turn out to be mistaken.

But this speculation is just that - speculation. It is hardly an argument for the correctness of your position. And, of course, my explanations are no "convenient mythologizations" as you imply.

My arguments are clear and rational. Address them if you can, but please do not engage in the tired strategy of avoiding the content of the arguments and suggesting that I intentionally dismiss texts that do not sit well with my position.

Name one text that I have arbitrarily - that is without justification - transformed into myth.

Drew,

I did not mean to cause offense and if I did I apologize. Even if you gave an explantion for all 12 points of the Zech 14 prophecy I listed, I doubt we would ever agree. But's that okay...we are free to agree to disagree.

Have a blessed day,
Deirdre

 

[researcher]

Also, the question posed by the disciples pertained to the temple then standing in Jerusalem, out of which they had just departed, at which they were then looking, and about whose prophesied destruction they were wondering. If Jesus is talking about another future temple, then He is engaged in a rather strange behaviour – not answering the actual question posed to Him. That seems rather unlikely.

Good point. ;) :D