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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
th1b.taylor
Member
Interesting Eddiff. I gave up my will the evening the Spirit indwelt me and as I go towards the grave I am getting better at not quenching the spirit but when these matters are broached there is great resistance. Not from me but I am accustomed to great resistance when discussing Spiritual vs, Natural because people do not accept it easily.
The JWs are the best example of this issue but it is present in the Baptist Church also, just buried. I have some Saved Catholic friends that tell me this issue is buried, just under the surface, in the RC Churches also. Folks are comfortable with the person, the Holy Spirit until some call Him the Holy Ghost because, I believe, that runs to close to the issue of being very Spirit centered.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
On phone trying to figure it out.
to Deb ...... Job took down his own hedge. read again and what Elihu said.
angels are never mentioned to be fallen. Jesus said the devil and HIS angels. it is just pure speculation on how that came to be if not always so.
I teach scripture only, and even when told things kept hidden in the word I don't mention it as the word is perfect and outside the word my revelation is not perfect.
I will attempt to set this up to use mysword and tapatalk whatever work?
to Deb ...... Job took down his own hedge. read again and what Elihu said.
angels are never mentioned to be fallen. Jesus said the devil and HIS angels. it is just pure speculation on how that came to be if not always so.
I teach scripture only, and even when told things kept hidden in the word I don't mention it as the word is perfect and outside the word my revelation is not perfect.
I will attempt to set this up to use mysword and tapatalk whatever work?
Through a glass darkly.
The op deals with Paul's thorn. Some see the physical some see the spiritual. I tend to see both. God made us in his image. I believe you can lay a Biology book and scriptural text (Bible) on the same table at the same time (since God is author of both-- in forefront or background influence).
We were made to receive Him into us.
Revelation 3:20
I tend toward now (after Pentecost). And , here is where the through the glass darkly falls. The last trump (resurrection) has not sounded so I am not perfect in the flesh. My mind is transformed by the new birth, but the flesh awaits a future action ( IMHO ).
I look at the human body ( created by God) to understand the tabernacle / temple. If I get the big head about this I may need something to tone me down (my own thorn). God is not in us till we open the door. Having symbolism is not the spiritual reality. Jesus is the reality not my body parts.
Does this help? Perhaps I missed your question.
eddif
Kathi When ya keep reading Eddif's posts it becomes somewhat clear what he is saying... He is a pleasant member...
Deborah13
Member
Sorry Mike, I don't see where it says anywhere from Chapter 32-38 that Job took down the hedge.
The first Heaven is the natural heavens above the earth, which includes the other galaxies and solar systems.
The second heaven is the spirit world around the earth, up to and just under the third heaven, or as scripture also calls, the highest heaven. This is where Satan and his angels, not demons, have access.
Satan will be cast out of this and confined to the earth at the appointed time.
The third Heaven or highest Heaven is where the throne room is and where God dwells and Jesus seated at His right hand, and where the saints are preserved with them awaiting to return with The Lord on that Day.
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Sorry on a phone.....
We know God right?
If I know you and someone said Deb robbed those banks last week, I would say it can't be, despite some loose evidence they presented.
Satan is like that. He twist and shows us areas of God we can't trust. He accuses God before us.
Think about what you know.
Any place where God said, if you obey and serve me I will remove my protection and the enemy will crush your kids and take what you have?
Or
God say if you choose life and choose the blessing, you and your seed (kids) may live?
Elihu 34
10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
God does not do evil or commit iniquity.
Opening the gate so someone's kids get murdered, who served you is evil. It also counters pages of Scripture of who God is.
It was according to Jobs ways. Just like Elihu said, the only on who spoke right on God's behalf.
What God tell Satan?
What did Satan tell God job would do?
3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!'
4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life.
5 Yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike unto his bone and unto his flesh--if not: unto Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
God said it was for no purpose, vain, for nought. To stop continuing to entice him to hurt job personally for no reason and Satan did not use the Hebrew words to curse, but used Barak which means to saute or bless back. Only in job did the translators mess it up.
Paul's thorn in the flesh was that of Satan's messenger trying to buffet him. Buffet here means to strike repeatedly as Satan used his evil angels to come against Paul and persecute him everywhere he went. Paul prayed three times for God to take these persecutions away and God said no as God said "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness".
God is not going to keep us from being persecuted as even His own Son Christ Jesus was persecuted to death on the cross and many martyrs after him in other ways, even so still today as many are persecuted even to death for the witness of Christ. God gives us His power and authority through His grace to give us strength when we are persecuted like Paul said:
2Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God is not going to keep us from being persecuted as even His own Son Christ Jesus was persecuted to death on the cross and many martyrs after him in other ways, even so still today as many are persecuted even to death for the witness of Christ. God gives us His power and authority through His grace to give us strength when we are persecuted like Paul said:
2Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.
Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.
Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God.
These verses show what and where Satan's domain or kingdom is and has restricted access to the presence of God.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
(prince of this world)
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(prince of the power of the air)
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
(restricted access to the throne of God)
Some ask how can Satan be in heaven being he is sinful and the answer is that of Gods sovereign restraint of sin while he is there. In Job 1 Satan stood before God to give account of himself. God initiated the meeting and remained in absolute control of the meeting. In God being in control it limited Satan's power and God was glorified. Satan can only be summoned of God as he does not have open access to the throne of God and his time with God is limited by God. Satan's access is only granted until his final judgement
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
(prince of this world)
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(prince of the power of the air)
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
(restricted access to the throne of God)
Some ask how can Satan be in heaven being he is sinful and the answer is that of Gods sovereign restraint of sin while he is there. In Job 1 Satan stood before God to give account of himself. God initiated the meeting and remained in absolute control of the meeting. In God being in control it limited Satan's power and God was glorified. Satan can only be summoned of God as he does not have open access to the throne of God and his time with God is limited by God. Satan's access is only granted until his final judgement
th1b.taylor
Member
But that was my point had he responded and wanted to see the biblical foundation of my earlier post that he was disputing. You blew my cover.
Job says before The Lord which is an expression throughout the bible and doesn't necessarily mean in the third heaven, directly in front of God's throne.
Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God.Exodus 23:17
And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you.
Deuteronomy 12:12
In these scriptures the people were not in the third heaven in directly in front of God's throne.
JLB
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Deborah13
Member
In this scripture the same word 'H1288' 'barak' is translated 'blessing' by Young and is correct the problem is that in English blessing is determined to always be a good thing so we have to look at the context.
YLT
1Ki 21:10 and cause two men--sons of worthlessness--to sit over-against him, and they testify of him, saying, Thou hast blessed God and Melech; and they have brought him out, and stoned him, and he dieth.'
KJV
1Ki 21:10 And set two men, sons of Belial, before him, to bear witness against him, saying, Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.
If it means blessed as a good thing in Job then we have another thing to looked. Why would Job be offering burnt-offerings for his children that he believed may have sinned?
YLT
Job 1:5 ... and caused to ascend burnt-offerings--the number of them all--for Job said, `Perhaps my sons have sinned, yet blessed God in their heart.' Thus doth Job all the days.
KJV
Job 1:5 ... and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
imo
I think what you are getting at is that all the bad things happened to Job because he sinned. That's like saying someone's child is murdered by someone else because the parent sinned or someone's child get's sick and dies because the parent sinned. That would be like saying someone is martyred because they sinned.
I don't find anywhere in scripture where God says He has put a hedge around us that protects us from the evil in the world. He has given us an intercessor and weapons to fight with.
That is the same as saying, Blessings and Cursings are determined by what one does themselves rather than by what the Father and Jesus did. That is what Job thought, too.
Chopper
Member
Whatever we decide on what the thorn is that Paul experienced, I think the main point in arriving at a definite being, illness or whatever, it would have to qualify in being able to counteract Paul's being exalted above measure. (2 Cor. 12:7) So, I'm saying that "being exalted" is what the thorn has to overcome. So, would bad eyesight qualify? would crippled up because of the beatings? Yea, maybe. See what I mean?
th1b.taylor
Member
Chopper,
I had never even considered that. I view it as very possible though because of life experiences. I was in the choir when I was first saved because folks say I have a remarkable voice. a couple of people quit b4cause they felt they had no business singing beside or with me??? Wrong! When I was called to aid a young Pastor with a small country assembly he knew of my talent with the guitar and knew of my voice and his music director had just turned in his plan to leave because he had been offered money. I was there to do what ever and took the task until he was called into the mission field and the next man was not God's man and ran me and my family off by attacking my, then, 4 year old granddaughter. At the next Church I and another simi-pro musician and a former retired Blue Grass piano player that played for Bill Monroe among others, did the music.
When I came to Silver Springs they did not have a choir and now that they do I sit down because of the way I have been repeatedly approached. Exaltation is very dangerous when it is not pointed toward God, so I am happy to do fifth Sundays and to teach. It is far to simple for folks to focus in the wrong direction. Then, there is the thing I will never understand, women think I'm cute and I do not like that. I never want anything to come between Deeter and I. And if I am always viewed as clinging to her skirt tail, well, it's an easy defencce, is it not?
th1b.taylor
Member
JLB,
For His Glory and I stand on the verses she presented you with because they all are used in the context they are recorded in and what you have done here will not stand the test of hermeneutics for the point you are trying to make. The net result of what you have done in this post is you have offered an opinion that is unsupported by the texts.
So please, let's us stop running the rabbit and go back to the subject. Reba, I am sorry, I should never have taken his bait so mark this one my fault but it is over.
I hope you are not referring to the word of God that I posted, as a rabbit trial or bait.
I simply showed some scriptures that contain the phrase "before the Lord".
In the scriptures, it is clear the the phrase "before the Lord", doesn't necessarily mean in the third heaven, directly in front of God's throne.
Lucifer [Satan] was cast out of the mountain of God where God dwells, even before man was created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. Ezekiel 28:14-16
The sons of God who came to present themselves before the Lord, were not necessarily in the Third Heaven before the Throne of God the Father.
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:6-7
Furthermore the Lord in this verse is most likely a reference to the Lord Jesus, and not God the Father who is seated upon the Throne.
The Lord appeared to Abraham and others in the Old Testament.
Most likely this is a reference to a place outside the gates of Heaven where the sons of God would come before the Lord.
9 Lift up your heads, O you gates! Lift up, you everlasting doors! And the King of glory shall come in. 10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, He is the King of glory. Selah
Psalm 24:9-10
I believe the instant iniquity was found in Lucifer, he was cast out of the Third heaven.
I believe there is no sin in Heaven, or Fallen angels.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Your right, Zero scripture that says there is a hedge around anyone. Satan said that, and God never said there was or was not a hedge. I am not one to take Satans word for anything, He is a liar and there is no truth in him. (John 8:44)
Elihu spoke on God's behalf. He was the youngest and he said it's Job's fault. Not God's, not God's choice, not God just doing evil to Job, not God being unfair to Job. Job did it. When Elihu said God would not pervert Judgement, He meant that God would not break his own word and stop Satan. Help was always there if Job would have just humbled himself and asked. Listen to Job.................................
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
though I am being slayed, and blaming God, I am not changing my ways.............. Because I think my ways are good. Not very bright.
A few things to keep in mind. Job not one time ever asked God for help. Not once. He did not know God that way. Job felt he had enough good works to keep evil at bay. Jesus said the flood came for the man who took heed to the Word and for the man that heard the same and did not take heed. In other words, the flood comes, but people get different results by what they give measure to as being important. "Take heed what you hear, for that which he has can be taken." (Jesus)
Write this down, it's a definition that the Lord gave me.
Faith obtains what Grace says is already yours.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
So, despite what the Father did, or Jesus did by defeating the devil and taking the keys of death and hell away from him. Despite all those things done already, we have a choice to make.
check it............
Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
God already gave them that promise land, it was already theirs..................
Not one that had the promise got it, and it was theirs.
Not God's fault.............. They came to the edge of that land (Num 13) and even though the land was theirs, they felt there was a giant issue to big for God to handle.
Job's issue was trust, He only knew God not through love, but keeping works and obedience. Job lacked revelation and did not sin, but it still cost him.
Satan drops a thoughts and lies and seeks who to devour. For Job it was cursing God, because in Job's mind, not cursing God and doing good deeds is what made God happy.
It started with Jobs kids, the kids might be cursing God in their heart at those parties, if you curse God Job thinks, then you die. Just in case, Job sacrificed animals every time the kids had a party because Job was in fear of loss.
God is watching the whole thing of course.
Job had two bands of bad guys he was in fear of also. the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Constantly on watch for them.
Job also feared his health, if he got sick, How could he continue to protect the children and keep his stuff.
Satan came and no surprise to God. Satan says if you God hurt Job, He will salute you back and blame you. (Barak, to bless back for action down, Translated Salute also)
God said pay attention stupid (Behold) He is in your power, Job has been taking action to your fear and lies and not my ability to protect him. Don't try to get me to hurt him, it would be without cause and Job has done nothing wrong being a upright man.
Neither give place to the devil.
(Eph 4:27)
Satan tells God that Job will salute or bless him back and blame him for what has happened to him.
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed "BARAK" be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
(Job 1:21-22)
Job did exactly just that, blamed God for taking away.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(Rom 11:29)
Notice the Holy Spirit steps in to let us know............. Job did not sin, or foolishly charge God. Job charged God, but did it in a sincere way. Job could have never committed the sin Satan accused him to God about. The false accuser, lying again.
58 times it's written to fear not.
48 times it's written to be not afraid.
be of Good courage, take no thought..................
God's word can never change, and God never changes.
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
(Job 3:25)
What happened to Job?