If God Loved everyone !

[mondar]

Let me also offer some exegetical suggestions on how to read this verse....

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
This is the NIV, other translations use different terms and words. Nevertheless, Peter says God is "patient with you." The term "you" must be understood as the same group he is writing to in the introduction of the his epistle....

This says nothing about the universal offering of concern for all of men.

It speaks of the special patience that God has for those who accept Him, but we must remember that we ALL, at one point in our life, rejected God - and He remained patient. God is patient for the sake of others coming to Him.

Again, I agree. God is not willing that any (of those who he chose to believe on him) will perish, but will wait for all to come to faith.

Peter is not addressing God's patience as being limited only to a select group. He is merely stating that God has patience with Christians without discussing God's patience with others...[/quote]

Since God loved us WHILE we were in sin, it follows that God continues to love those who are STILL in sin...[/quote]
Francis, first let me say that you wrote a lot, I will try to go back and read what you wrote, but I need some time to go back and read the previous posts.

Concerning what you say above. I think think you are disassociating the first part of the text with the later part.

I am looking at the "you" as the same group as the later group referred to by the word "any." You seem to think they are two different groups. I dont see why you think that this is grammatically possible. How do you see the grammar?

Let me try this in English clause by clause......

"He is patient with you" ------we agree here that it speaks of the believing (elect) audience that Peter is writing to. This group does not include unbelievers. He is patient with believers.
"not wanting anyone to perish" ----- The word "anyone" here takes its antecedent from the word "you" in the previous clause. God does not want "anyone" of the "you" to perish.
"but everyone to come to repentance." ------ The word "everyone" also has the preceding clauses as its antecedent. It too goes back to the word "you." In other words, God wanted "everyone of you who are the readers" to come to repentance.

I am aware that this text is commonly quoted as proving that God wants every single person that every lived to come to repentance. I think the people who assume that this text teaches that are do not realize that the later words "anyone" and "everyone" has as its antecedent the word "you." The text then is merely saying that God will be patient with all the group called "you" (elect) and will wait for them to come to repentance.

Now can you offer reasons why you see the words "anyone to perish" and "everyone to come to repentance" as a different group of people then the people in the clause that precedes it "is patient with you." You do seem to be understanding the text as referring to "you" as believers, and then the other clauses as including unbelievers. Why?

 

[mondar]

If I get time, and have interest, we can later move on to the other text you mention. But I think we should keep our discussion to 1 Peter for now.

John 1:29.
1 Tim 2:4
Romans 5:15-19

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran says:

The verses in question speak of salvation OFFERED to the entire world

There is no such verse that says salvation is offered to the entire world..

I have already presented it.

John 1:29.
1 Tim 2:4
Romans 5:15-19

I could provide more, but if these three don't convince you, I doubt more will...

Thats funny, I dont see the word offer in any of those verses..do you need glasses ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

seek says:

Christ paid the price for the sin of the world which is death. It's still up to us to receive this gift and follow him.

Thats not True, if the sin of the world has been taken away, then its no sin for God to punish anymore..

Its gone.. the word taketh away literally means:

cause to cease

This was prophesied in daniel 9:

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

make an end to sin..cause it to cease.. The word end here is the hebrew word:

Tamam and means:


to be finished, come to an end, cease

There is no sin to punish Gods elect world for..

 

[glorydaz]

seek says:

Christ paid the price for the sin of the world which is death. It's still up to us to receive this gift and follow him.

Thats not True, if the sin of the world has been taken away, then its no sin for God to punish anymore..

Its gone.. the word taketh away literally means:

cause to cease

Christ paid the price for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

His death reconciled man to God (forgiven), and by His resurrection we are raised into newness of life (saved).

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Unbelief is not forgiven...thus all men are commanded by God to repent and believe.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[francisdesales]

"God is Love" is the key aspect of our faith. The Triune depths of our faith proclaim that God is not a sole Being, but a God who loves and reaches out beyond Himself even as Love moves within the Godhead. From this flows ALL doctrines, all paradigms, all interpretations of Scriptures... IF God is indeed Love, then this Love expresses itself EVERYWHERE, universally. God DOES desire we are ALL saved - but being Love, God gives Condemnation (separation) to those who prefer it to Love. (the wrath of God is seen, not as lightning bolts, but as God leaving men to their own devices... a hopeless situation - Romans 1 or Psalm 81 above). It all comes down to a relationship. Who desires Love?

Excellent

Ah, it takes a Catholic to appreciate the Trinity for what it really is!

 

[francisdesales]

I think think you are disassociating the first part of the text with the later part.

I am looking at the "you" as the same group as the later group referred to by the word "any." You seem to think they are two different groups. I dont see why you think that this is grammatically possible. How do you see the grammar?

I apologize if it appears that was what I meant. I happen to agree with you exegesis. I was merely saying that Peter is addressing one group, the "anyone" refering to Christians, WITHOUT EXCLUDING God's rejection or patience for others...

His patience is not limited only to Christians. I do not believe Peter is making an exclusive statement.

I am aware that this text is commonly quoted as proving that God wants every single person that every lived to come to repentance.

I disagree that it refers to everyone in the world. As it happens, Peter is speaking about the relationship between God and Christians without refering to non-Christians (whether they will later or not...)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thats funny, I dont see the word offer in any of those verses..do you need glasses ?

Yes, I am wearing them now. Is that a problem?

Christ died to redeem the world, the sin of the world. I have glasses, but I don't see any distinction between "elect" and "nonelect" in the concept of "WORLD".

Again, it is up to you to prove your assertion that "world" = an elect few...

 

[savedbygrace57]

fran:

Yes, I am wearing them now. Is that a problem?

Yeah it is a problem for you to say a scripture uses the word offer, when they dont..

 

[francisdesales]

Yeah it is a problem for you to say a scripture uses the word offer, when they dont..

But it is OK that you add "only the elect" to "God desires ALL men to be saved...

Please...

 

[glorydaz]

I have already presented it.

John 1:29.
1 Tim 2:4
Romans 5:15-19

I could provide more, but if these three don't convince you, I doubt more will...

Thats funny, I dont see the word offer in any of those verses..do you need glasses ?

How many gifts are forced upon people?
A gift is offered.....just a question of common sense.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I have already presented it.

John 1:29.
1 Tim 2:4
Romans 5:15-19

I could provide more, but if these three don't convince you, I doubt more will...

Thats funny, I dont see the word offer in any of those verses..do you need glasses ?

How many gifts are forced upon people?
A gift is offered.....just a question of common sense.

Where is the word offer ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yeah it is a problem for you to say a scripture uses the word offer, when they dont..

But it is OK that you add "only the elect" to "God desires ALL men to be saved...

Please...

Yea, God desires all the elect to be saved..

 

[francisdesales]

But it is OK that you add "only the elect" to "God desires ALL men to be saved...

Please...

Yea, God desires all the elect to be saved..

Are you 12 years old? Just wondering...

 

[Orion]

Yeah it is a problem for you to say a scripture uses the word offer, when they dont..

But it is OK that you add "only the elect" to "God desires ALL men to be saved...

Please...

Yea, God desires all the elect to be saved..

*disclaimer - My statement is about the ideology, in general, not about any specific deity.*

Wow, . . . .talk about "stacking the cards in your favor", so you aren't disappointed. That's kind of a "challenge-less" endeavor for a being to take, would it not? If those who you WANT to "love you" are created to do just that, then you have an unreal type of love [a real love is a love that includes the possibility of rejection].

 

[francisdesales]

Wow, . . . .talk about "stacking the cards in your favor", so you aren't disappointed. That's kind of a "challenge-less" endeavor for a being to take, would it not? If those who you WANT to "love you" are created to do just that, then you have an unreal type of love [a real love is a love that includes the possibility of rejection].

A good point. Love requires the beloved can FREELY reject or accept the love given.

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

God does not Love everyone, only the chosen..

 

[glorydaz]

God does not Love everyone, only the chosen..

I cringe every single time I read this.

God so loved the WORLD...that WHOSOEVER believeth should not perish.
The words WORLD and WHOSOEVER make it clear that God loves all men and man has a choice to accept His gift of eternal life. God is love and you make Him out to be Hate. I hate that. :bigfrown

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

NOT FOR OURS ONLY.....but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.....that WHOSEVER WILL....

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God even loved Israel when she went whoring....

1Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

 

[Bick]

When Christ died, all mankind were sinners...that is how God proves his love for all (Rom.6:1-8).

While enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of Christ. We believers know and love God because His love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us (Rom. 5:5).

Christ as the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

The world, potentially, has been reconciled to God

"God was in Christ reconcilling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them..."
2 Corinthians 5:19

The same "all" who are dying in Adam, will be made alive in Christ; each in his own order:
Christ the first fruits
Thereupon those at His coming
Thereafter at the end (of the ages).
1 Cor. 15:20-26

 

[savedbygrace57]

bick says:

When Christ died, all mankind were sinners

Thats true, but God did not love all sinners, Just His chosen..