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End Times or Rapture?

JLB

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how in the world can the resurrection be before the rapture?
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


... we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

will not precede means the ones who are alive will not go or be caught up before the ones who have died.

Or as the next verse says -

the dead in Christ will rise first.


JLB
oops that means no millennium of any kind. a dead man in Christ is a dead man in Christ. in the millennium as im taught the Lord will be worshipped as Christ. hmmm nay.

uhm I see as judgement and resurrection at once.no removal of the church. the saints come with him that are in heaven to judge and we met him as he is coming, to judge all men

see jude and other Pauline mentions of this
The dead in Christ will rise first.

33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:33-36

and again -


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5


JLB
 

jasoncran

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im sorry I take jesus literally when he says this
john 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
and theres no pause tween the resurrection of the just and unjust, on that last day

Pauline authority echoes the same

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
and also this
2 corithians 5
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I restate.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
that my friend is the first resurrection.

when you look at the revalation 20 from that then there no way a millennium could be as taught? why whose are these saints and what will they believe? the gospel? or the law? or what?
 

n2thelight

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how in the world can the resurrection be before the rapture?
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


... we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

will not precede means the ones who are alive will not go or be caught up before the ones who have died.

Or as the next verse says -

the dead in Christ will rise first.


JLB

The dead are already in heaven,that's how He brings them back with Him

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

 
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10s3r

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Can a rapturist tell me the purpose of it?
Whenever a country is about to invade another country what does the invading country do? Remove it's citizens. When Christ returns to do battle He will remove His own before the battle begins to avoid "friendly fire." That's one 'physical' reason for the removal.
The spiritual reason for the rapture is because the judgments are imminent and Christian's must be removed to participate in the judgment of the righteous and our mortal bodies must put on immortality so that we can be part of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
 

n2thelight

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Can a rapturist tell me the purpose of it?
Whenever a country is about to invade another country what does the invading country do? Remove it's citizens. When Christ returns to do battle He will remove His own before the battle begins to avoid "friendly fire." That's one 'physical' reason for the removal.
The spiritual reason for the rapture is because the judgments are imminent and Christian's must be removed to participate in the judgment of the righteous and our mortal bodies must put on immortality so that we can be part of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Okay,let me take a stab,with your analogy

I look at the invading army as satan and his angels coming to deceive the world,we as christians must ,have the seal of God in order to stand against this deception......

Another thing is, all will be changed at the sounding of the 7th trump,(not just the rightous)the weapon Christ will use at His return is His two edged sword,which is His Word.....

If we have His Word we need not be taken out of the way as His sword will cut only those who have not that seal......
 
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10s3r

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Okay, let me take a stab, with your analogy.
I look at the invading army as Satan and his angels coming to deceive the
world, we as Christians must ,have the seal of God in order to stand against
this deception......

Another thing is, all will be changed at the sounding of the 7th trump, (not
just the righteous) the weapon Christ will use at His return is His two edged
sword, which is His Word.....

If we have His Word we need not be taken out of the way as His sword will
cut only those who have not that seal......
If you don't believe in a rapture, and if you believe that when Christ returns that's the army of Satan... that's fine. You asked a question and I answered it.

God bless...
 

n2thelight

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Okay, let me take a stab, with your analogy.
I look at the invading army as Satan and his angels coming to deceive the
world, we as Christians must ,have the seal of God in order to stand against
this deception......

Another thing is, all will be changed at the sounding of the 7th trump, (not
just the righteous) the weapon Christ will use at His return is His two edged
sword, which is His Word.....

If we have His Word we need not be taken out of the way as His sword will
cut only those who have not that seal......
If you don't believe in a rapture, and if you believe that when Christ returns that's the army of Satan... that's fine. You asked a question and I answered it.

God bless...
No I don't believe in a rapture,and I don't believe when Christ returns it's an army of satan,so your missing my point,and that being,satan comes first,pretending to be Christ.....
 
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10s3r

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No I don't believe in a rapture, and I don't believe when Christ returns it's an
army of satan, so your missing my point, and that being, satan comes
first, pretending to be Christ....
I understood what you said because of the way you said it.

If you don't believe in a rapture then what do you say this is....

Matthew 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 

n2thelight

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No I don't believe in a rapture, and I don't believe when Christ returns it's an
army of satan, so your missing my point, and that being, satan comes
first, pretending to be Christ....
I understood what you said because of the way you said it.

If you don't believe in a rapture then what do you say this is....

Matthew 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Okayyyy,you all say this rapture can happen at any time,so did you see everything that would happen before verse 30 ?,Specifically 29

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent.

So to answer your question of verse 29,this would be His 2nd coming......

Now let's do your verses from Rev.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

The "rapture belief" is the beginning of accepting the Mark of the beast. It teaches you to worship the first Messiah that comes in the clouds. John says, "here is the patience [endurance] of the saints." These saints are those that know what is to come, and held to their faith. They have stood fast through every deception, and trick the Antichrist could pull, and they kept the commandments of God.

Revelation 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Revelation 14:14 "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden, and in his hand a sharp sickle."

The one sitting on the white cloud and holding the golden crown is Jesus Christ, coming with his saints. It's harvest time.

Revelation 14:15 "And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe [overripe]."

It is reward time on the earth, and on this day you will get exactly what is coming to you. The day is the "day of the Lord", at the seventh trumpet, and Jesus Christ is here with his saints and angels.

Revelation 14:16 "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

This is the time that the wheat and the tares are separated.RememberMathew 13:37-42?

Matthew 13:37 "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Matthew 13:38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Matthew 13:39 "The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [age]."

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend [cause stumbling], and them which do iniquity;"

Matthew 13:42 "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Jesus gave this in answer to the parable of the tares while he was with his disciples, and here in the vision of the John, Jesus is giving the same lesson to us again as to what shall take place of that dreaded day of the Lord.

Revelation 14:17 "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle."

Revelation 14:18 "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."

Revelation 14:19 "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

As you should see this is the Day of the Lord which is also His 2nd coming..........No rapture.....
 
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10s3r

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Okayyyy,you all say this rapture can happen at any time,so did
you see everything that would happen before verse 30 ?,Specifically
29
Maybe you should read my replies a little better. I didn't say that.
Hey! If you don't believe in the harpazo then that's fine. I'm not going to debate it with you since there's an internet full of information for you to look at.
God bless you in your walk with Christ....


 

n2thelight

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Okayyyy,you all say this rapture can happen at any time,so did
you see everything that would happen before verse 30 ?,Specifically
29


Maybe you should read my replies a little better. I didn't say that.
Hey! If you don't believe in the harpazo then that's fine. I'm not going to debate it with you since there's an internet full of information for you to look at.
God bless you in your walk with Christ....


So you all believe differently,and Im not debating,I think it's a discussion,as for info on the net,been there and most if not all say Christ can come at anytime,sorry if I lumped you in that group.....However the scriptures you provided were all for His 2nd coming,if you think it's the rapture,can you show me verses for that 2nd coming....And may God bless you as well...
 
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berk60

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So you all believe differently,and Im not debating,I think it's a discussion,as for info on the net,been there and most if not all say Christ can come at anytime,sorry if I lumped you in that group.....However the scriptures you provided were all for His 2nd coming,if you think it's the rapture,can you show me verses for that 2nd coming....And may God bless you as well...
In 1 Thess. 4:15-17 it says, “15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming(3952) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
You will see “the” before the word “coming.” This makes the “coming” a definite article which is singular. In contrast as if it were “a coming” it would mean one of many comings.
The Greek word for “coming” used here is Parousia and means Advent. The Strong’s Concordance number is 3952. In the Merriam Webster dictionary the word Advent as used in the bible means, “The Second Coming of Christ.”
This Advent or Parousia of Christ in 1 Thess. 4:15-17 is commonly known as the Rapture of the Church and is the definite article. Everytime you have this particular word used it must be held to the single event of the rapture. Let's see where else we find it in the bible.
.
The word Parousia is used 18 times when relating to Christ in the New Testament and every time used it refers to the Rapture event as established in verse 15 where we can see it as a definite article.
If we now look in 2 Thess. Chapter 2 it reads, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
We see the Parousia of Christ used twice here. I want you to take a look at verse 8. Jesus is going to also take care of Wicked 459 (Lawless) , the Anti-Christ at the same time He raptures us up to Himself. The word used here “destroy”2673 means to render idle or useless. So that doesn’t mean that Jesus is going to kill the Anti-Christ. It only means that He is going to incapacitate him.
Seeing that this Rapture event takes place while the Anti-Christ is revealed and already on the scene tells us that the event takes place at a minimum of the middle of the seven year tribulation period of later. This way we can see the timing of the Rapture in relationship to the seven year period.
Just a side note: the word Parousia is not found anywhere in Revelation chapter 19 when Christ returns to earth with His army. Logically so because the Rapture has already taken place before that time so the word representing it is not found.
[FONT=&quot]FYI
The 18 places Parousia is used in the New Testament in reference to Jesus:
Matt 24: 3,27,37,39,48 1 Co 15:23 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 15:23 2 Thess 2:1,8
James 5:7,8 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12 1 John 2:28[/FONT]
 
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10s3r

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The word Parousia is used 18 times when relating to Christ in the New
Testament and every time used it refers to the Rapture event as established in
verse 15 where we can see it as a definite article.
The word is used 24 times and it never refers to the rapture as the word means presence. Rapture, or the gathering is the word harpazo and is mentioned in only a few of those passages. Parousia is used 17 or 18 times and is even used to describe the coming people and the man of sin!

2Th 2:8:9 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 3952: [Even him], whose coming 3952 is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming 3952 of Titus;

2Cr 7:7 And not by his coming 3952 only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.

1Cr 16:17I am glad of the coming 3952 of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

That your rejoicing Phl 1:26 may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming 3952 to you again.
 
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n2thelight

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@ berk60

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Christ returns more than once......
 
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10s3r

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@ berk60

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Christ returns more than once......
I have no idea why you would make such a comment but Christ return is mentioned more than once in scripture! Ask a pre-tribulationist to quote a verse for you where Christ is said to return before the tribulation. They can't because there are none!
 

n2thelight

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@ berk60

Nowhere in scripture is it written that Christ returns more than once......
I have no idea why you would make such a comment but Christ return is mentioned more than once in scripture! Ask a pre-tribulationist to quote a verse for you where Christ is said to return before the tribulation. They can't because there are none!

Don't think your reading me right,and I also can't figure out your position.......I know Christ 2nd coming is mentioned more than once,my point was,there is no mention of a 3rd coming,the 2nd is it...In order to believe in a rapture there must be a 3rd,and that is simply not written.....

And you are correct ,nowhere is it written that Christ comes before the trib,or in the middle of it for that matter......

Maybe you should read my replies a little better.



Yea I will go back over them,as I was led to believe that you did in fact promote the rapture,my apologies if I read you wrong...
 

n2thelight

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10s3r

The spiritual reason for the rapture is because the judgments are imminent and Christian's must be removed to participate in the judgment of the righteous and our mortal bodies must put on immortality so that we can be part of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Guess this is why Im confused about your position.....
 

Eugene

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1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rapture or not someone alive is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The answer to the question then cannot be not, but when. It's evident or sufficient for me that it happens at some trump other than the last trump, and to then seek the when.

In the revelation of Jesus Christ by God to John, he sees different ones appear before the throne in heaven. Again they must fit the criterion of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the dead in Christ first, and then them that are alive. If there is no catching up, just how do they get there?
 

berk60

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The word is used 24 times and it never refers to the rapture as the word means presence. Rapture, or the gathering is the word harpazo and is mentioned in only a few of those passages. Parousia is used 17 or 18 times and is even used to describe the coming people and the man of sin! 2Th 2:8:9 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 3952: [Even him], whose coming 3952 is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming 3952 of Titus; 2Cr 7:7 And not by his coming 3952 only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more. 1Cr 16:17I am glad of the coming 3952 of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied. That your rejoicing Phl 1:26 may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming 3952 to you again.
The scripture that you referenced is not related to Christ but to disciples of His and in that case the word Parousia becomes specific to their coming. The word Parousia is used 18 times when relating to Christ in the New Testament. These references when defined as the definite article pertaining to Christ are the ones related to the rapture.
 

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