End Times or Rapture?
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freeway
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I have not posted here in quite some time. But stop in to read.. I believe we are all Christians and that Jesus loves us each and everyone... I have a question for those that believe the Church is here during the trib, and that it is raptured at the "Second coming" at the end of the trib... Question is, who are the sheep and goats and who is it that Jesus is refering too? The "my brethen" ? The ones that are treaded good or bad by first two groups. Now if all Christians.. believers in Jesus are raptured just pryer to the second coming, then who is he talking too....and as far as Noah. He was not in judgement at the flood. God lifted him up above where the Judgement was talking place... drowning on the earth.. Do you think Noah was ever in any danger?
Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:"
Have you wondered what it will be like at Christ return? This is that time; Jesus Christ will come in all His glory, as King of Kings, and Lord of Lord, and with all the holy angels with Him. Jesus will then sit on His throne of His glory, right here on earth. Not on some cloud, or off in space, but in Jerusalem.
Matthew 25:32 "And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"
Notice that there is no reference to a resurrection here, therefore no reference to Revelation 20. The Gathering to Christ is to be on earth, as Recorded in Isaiah 34:1, 2; and Joel 3:1, 2, 11, and 12. When Christ returns in His glory, there will be division. The division in the beginning of the Millennium age is a time for teaching and discipline. The division that this parable shall end with is the final division where the souls will either go into eternity, or into the lake of fire.
That will be a sad time for those that go into the lake of fire; but for those that go into eternity this will be a joyful time. This will not be a sad time for one entering eternity even if their loved brother and mother and father enter into the lake of fire, Why? Well in the Greek, the meaning is that it will be as if they will never have existed. There will be no pain of the thought of a loved one burning away in this age, and perishing, because it will be as if they had never been born. This is why there will be no tears on the first day.
Revelation 21:4; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
Revelation 21:8; "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."
Is your name in the Lamb's book of Life, that is what is important. Jesus has told us how it is put there, and what will happen to all those that are not recorded there. Eternal life is given freely by the mercy and grace that only God can give today, but the time will come when that door is shut tight.
Matthew 25:33 "And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."
This separation will be at the time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Christ returns, is not the Judgment of the Great white throne, but it is a time of the separation of the nations, or peoples of the earth.
Matthew 25:34 "Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand,' Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
This lets us know that He is speaking to His elect, those that were chosen from before the foundation of the world, as well as their inheritance. Ephesians 1:4, 5; "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:" [4] "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [5]
The whole reason for the adoption of children is to give the responsibility to the parent and the inheritance to the adopted children. Jesus is telling us that as one of His elect, this whole inheritance was set up way back in that first earth age, prior to Genesis 1:2.
I know this will go over like a lead balloon, but feel the need to post it anyway.
A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a great tribulation and no one will know when, not even Jesus himself will know. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. Go look up all the scripture that uses the word tribulation. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven.
Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Matthew 24:13 but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a great tribulation and no one will know when, not even Jesus himself will know. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. Go look up all the scripture that uses the word tribulation. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven.
Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Matthew 24:13 but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
The Bible refers to the Tribulation as being divided into two segments, each of 1,260 days. What, you say? That's not seven years? You're right, by the Julian calendar. It is, however, by the Hebrew Lunar calendar.
Revelation 20:2-4 speaks of the thousand years that Satan is imprisoned in chains, during which time Christ reigns on Earth.
Salvation is guaranteed upon God's acceptance of our confession that we are sinners in need of a Savior. There is no question that belief is all that is necessary to be saved. What is in question is the reward the believer will lay up for him/herself in heaven based on the works they do to build the kingdom in the hearts of others before the Rapture, Tribulation, and Thousand Year Reign. I know you don't buy into any of this, but nonetheless these things are true and spoken of in Scripture. I'm not going to waste my time debating them. They are there for others to see.
Jesus will return to first resurrect the "dead in Christ", then we who are alive and remain.
The resurrection comes BEFORE The rapture.
If every eye shall see Him and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they see Him when He returns, Then who would follow the antichrist if they have seen the true Christ, if He were to return Before the tribulation?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:4
Obviously this takes place before He returns.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Mathew 24:23-27
Jesus warned us that there would be false christ BEFORE He returned.
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
This clearly teaches us His return will not be done in secret!
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Again. who would follow a false christ or antichrist if they had seen the real Christ?
JLB
The resurrection comes BEFORE The rapture.
If every eye shall see Him and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they see Him when He returns, Then who would follow the antichrist if they have seen the true Christ, if He were to return Before the tribulation?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:4
Obviously this takes place before He returns.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Mathew 24:23-27
Jesus warned us that there would be false christ BEFORE He returned.
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
This clearly teaches us His return will not be done in secret!
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Again. who would follow a false christ or antichrist if they had seen the real Christ?
JLB
1
10s3r
Guest
This isn't the rapture but it is an end-time event. This is the separation of the sheep and goats also called the judgment of nations. For all the pre-tribulationist out there, this is the event or judgment that determines who enters and populates the millennium.
The 2nd Coming of Jesus and the rapture (could you show me the word rapture in scripture) are the same event. Where did Jesus say anything about a Millenial Kingdom?? And i think that you have missed something here...if there are no goats in this millenium and only sheep (Christians) then how does Satan deceive the nations again at the end of this millenium?? If only the "saved" are in the millenium then Satan won't be able to "unsave" them...unless you believe that Satan can take a Christian and make him an "unCrhistian".
1
10s3r
Guest
I can show you the rapture in scripture. It's called the gathering or 'harpazo.'
I agree that the second coming is the same event as the gathering. Or I should say that the gathering is a part of the return of Christ.
In the sheep and goats judgment, the goats are destroyed and only the sheep enter the millennium.
Your question...
After the rapture, I think there will be millions who realize what actually took place and accept Christ. They are the sheep. Some will not accept what took place and refuse to accept Christ as the sovereign king of planet earth. Many of them expect Muhammad to be king. Sin isn't eradicated until the 1000 years are ended. Those sheep who enter the millennium will have several generations of offspring who still have free will to go in whatever direction they like.
Satan is released at the end to gather up all that still choose to go in his direction and then finally sin is completely destroyed on planet earth.
That's the way I see it now and know that I may be mistaken about some of this.
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Jesus tells us the resurrection and judgment are the last day ....
Joh_6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (Martha knew it)
Joh_12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
K
King James
Guest
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
... that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
... And the dead in Christ will rise first.
What is clear, is the resurrection is before the Rapture.
Both of these events will happen on the last Day [of this age].
JLB
Now that we know a Judge passes judgement during a trial, could we move along to your point.
Please try to use scripture that pertains to the OP.
Try.
JLB
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
... we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
will not precede means the ones who are alive will not go or be caught up before the ones who have died.
Or as the next verse says -
the dead in Christ will rise first.
JLB
There are two resurrections; the first inclusive of all believers, and the second of the dead (non-believers).
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Does John see more than one catching away or rapture appear before the throne of God?
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Does John see more than one catching away or rapture appear before the throne of God?
oops that means no millennium of any kind. a dead man in Christ is a dead man in Christ. in the millennium as im taught the Lord will be worshipped as Christ. hmmm nay.
uhm I see as judgement and resurrection at once.no removal of the church. the saints come with him that are in heaven to judge and we met him as he is coming, to judge all men
see jude and other Pauline mentions of this