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Hell, what is it?

Sathanas

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Folks, this forum requires that counter arguments include the supportive Scripture to show why we believe what we believe. Let's keep this in mind. Furthermore, the ToS includes the following so let's keep this a friendly discussion and drop all the accusations and personal remarks about others and others' discussion styles.

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Do not reply to this post on the open boards.
Understandable
 

Randy

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Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.

What is it?

Was it created, or did it always exist?

Who goes there?

Why do they go there?

I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.
Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. So there is a prison place where spirits are imprisoned as opposed to "today you shall be with me in paradise". I think the suffer but not like they will when all those not found written in the book of life from the creation of the world are thrown into the lake of fire. the 2nd death.
 

Jim Parker

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Another thread prompted this discussion. So I figured we could begin by knowing what exactly hell is.
What is it?
Was it created, or did it always exist?
Who goes there?
Why do they go there?
I think we often don't like to talk about it for some reason, but sometimes it's nessesary to understand things.
Mat 25:41-43 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
(1) What is it?
Everlasting fire
(2) Was it created, or did it always exist?
prepared (created - Only God has always existed; everything else is created.)
(3) Who goes there?
Those who are cursed go there (because they did not practice mercy) and the devil and his angels.
Also, unrepentant sinners. (Rev 20:14 & 21:8)
(4) Why do they go there?
Because they choose to reject God's good will for them; to disobey God's life-giving commandments and, instead, choose to do whatever they feel like doing whenever and wherever they feel like it.
Ro 8:12-14 (NKJV) “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors – not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you live according to the flesh you will die; but, if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.
 
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Jim Parker

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Second Thessalonians 1:7–9 says that those who do not know God “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”
The word "presence" does not have the same meaning as the word "love."
God's love fills all of creation and is never ending.
John 3:16 ...God so loved the world
1Ch 16:34 ...his steadfast love endures for ever!
1Ch 16:41 ... his steadfast love endures for ever.
2 Ch 5:13 ... his steadfast love endures for ever,

Psa 139:7-10 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.


iakov the fool
 

OzSpen

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Second Thessalonians 1:7–9 says that those who do not know God “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”
blair,

Thank you for directing me to this verse. It does indicate that those who experience the punishment of eternal destruction in Hades are away from the presence of the Lord or destruction from the Lord.

How do we deal with the apparent conflict between 2 Thess 1:9 (ESV) and Rev 14:9-10 (ESV), '9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb' (emphasis added).

Exegesis is not that easy here. How does the ESV translate 2 Thess 1:9? 'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might'.

The footnote [a] reads, 'Or destruction that comes from'. That brings a different nuance than 'away from the presence of the Lord'.

Benson's commentary on this verse states:

this phrase, destruction from the presence, or face, of the Lord, as Bishop Hopkins justly observes, expresses not only that they shall be expelled from that joy and glory which reigns in the presence of God and of Christ, but that his presence shall appear active in the infliction of their punishment, so that they shall find his wrath issuing forth like lightning to appal and torment their spirits, while his power glorifies itself in their ruin and misery (source).​

Ps 139:8 (ESV) affirms God's omnipresence: 'If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there'. The whole of Psalm 139 provides an awesome description of God being everywhere.

Because God is present everywhere, there is a sense in which he will be in hell (Ps 139:7-8 ESV) where unredeemed sinners are present and punished. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof taught that the place where the wicked go is referring to 'a total absence of the favor of God' (Systematic Theology, p. 736), which will be the opposite of the experience of saints in heaven. Believers will be in favour/fellowship with God while the damned will experience no blessing in fellowship with God.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Hades or hell, they both mean the same thing as both describe are the underground/grave. In the Hebrew it is Hades, in the Greek it is Hell.
FHG,
This demonstrates you don't know Hebrew or Greek. Hades is a Greek, not a Hebrew. word. The Hebrew equivalent to Hades is Sheol.

Please direct me to the Greek where the word 'hell' is used as a Greek word!

The Greek uses 3 words that are mistranslated by the KJV as 'hell'. They are Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus.

Oz
 

Jim Parker

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blair,

Thank you for directing me to this verse. It does indicate that those who experience the punishment of eternal destruction in Hades are away from the presence of the Lord or destruction from the Lord.

How do we deal with the apparent conflict between 2 Thess 1:9 (ESV) and Rev 14:9-10 (ESV), '9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb' (emphasis added).

Exegesis is not that easy here. How does the ESV translate 2 Thess 1:9? 'They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might'.

The footnote [a] reads, 'Or destruction that comes from'. That brings a different nuance than 'away from the presence of the Lord'.

Benson's commentary on this verse states:

this phrase, destruction from the presence, or face, of the Lord, as Bishop Hopkins justly observes, expresses not only that they shall be expelled from that joy and glory which reigns in the presence of God and of Christ, but that his presence shall appear active in the infliction of their punishment, so that they shall find his wrath issuing forth like lightning to appal and torment their spirits, while his power glorifies itself in their ruin and misery (source).​

Ps 139:8 (ESV) affirms God's omnipresence: 'If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there'. The whole of Psalm 139 provides an awesome description of God being everywhere.

Because God is present everywhere, there is a sense in which he will be in hell (Ps 139:7-8 ESV) where unredeemed sinners are present and punished. Reformed theologian Louis Berkhof taught that the place where the wicked go is referring to 'a total absence of the favor of God' (Systematic Theology, p. 736), which will be the opposite of the experience of saints in heaven. Believers will be in favour/fellowship with God while the damned will experience no blessing in fellowship with God.

Oz
2Th 1:9 (NKJV) These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
This can be understood as the everlasting destruction originating or eminating from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power.

The word "from" (ἀπό apo) can be translated as indicating either origin or separation and several translations render "ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ κυρίου" as "from the presence of the Lord" rather than "away from the presence of the Lord." (KJV, NKJV, CSB, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB, HNV)

The word "ἀπό" used at 2Th1:9 is the same used by Paul when he opens a letter with the words,"Grace to you and peace from (ἀπό) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." as does John at Rev.1:4 which are examples of "ἀπὸ" referring to origin rather than separation.

The verse "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (1Co 15:28 NKJV) would seem to indicate that any separation from the presence of God will be impossible as does Paul's prayer for the Ephesians (Eph 1:15-23) which concludes with "...the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

Another view: from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"
-----

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

:twocents my 2 kopecks worth:shrug


iakov the fool
 

OzSpen

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2Th 1:9 (NKJV) These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
This can be understood as the everlasting destruction originating or eminating from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power.

The word "from" (ἀπό apo) can be translated as indicating either origin or separation and several translations render "ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ κυρίου" as "from the presence of the Lord" rather than "away from the presence of the Lord." (KJV, NKJV, CSB, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB, HNV)

The word "ἀπό" used at 2Th1:9 is the same used by Paul when he opens a letter with the words,"Grace to you and peace from (ἀπό) God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." as does John at Rev.1:4 which are examples of "ἀπὸ" referring to origin rather than separation.

The verse "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (1Co 15:28 NKJV) would seem to indicate that any separation from the presence of God will be impossible as does Paul's prayer for the Ephesians (Eph 1:15-23) which concludes with "...the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

Another view: from "The River of Fire" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father's arms, but if he does not love him, his father's loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.

"I say," writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, "that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it"
-----

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

:twocents my 2 kopecks worth:shrug


iakov the fool
 

JohnDB

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The Greek uses 3 words that are mistranslated by the KJV as 'hell'. They are Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus.
Now I could be mistaken but "Gehenna" was the trash dump for Jerusalem that was set on fire from time to time.

I'm not sure about the origin of "Tartarus"
 

atpollard

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"In Greek mythology, Tartarus was both a primordial deity that existed before the Olympians, as well as a name to describe a region of the Underworld. As a god, he was third in rank after Chaos and Gaea, preceding Eros.

As a place, it was far below than where Hades resided and it was used as the most horrible prison. Some accounts say that the distance between Tartarus and Hades was the same as between the earth and the heaven. Although the kingdom of Hades was the place of the dead, Tartarus was where ferocious monsters and horrible criminals were banished, or where the gods imprisoned their rivals after a war. The three judges of the Underworld, Rhadamanthus, Aeacus and Minos, decided who would go to the realm of Hades and who would be banished to Tartarus.

Moreover, Cronus, the king of the Titans, imprisoned the Cyclopes and the Hecatonchires in Tartarus, but Zeus released them in order to help him defeat the Titans. When the Titanomachy ended in favour of the Olympians, Zeus banished many of the Titans to Tartarus."

Tartarus: www.greekmythology.com
 
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atpollard

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Now I could be mistaken but "Gehenna" was the trash dump for Jerusalem that was set on fire from time to time.
From Don Stewart (Blue Letter Bible):

"Another Greek word that is translated hell is "Gehenna." This word is used twelve times in the New Testament with Jesus employing it eleven times. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew ge hinnom or the "valley of Hinnom." Hinnom was probably the name of a person in ancient Israel. The valley of Hinnom is a deep narrow glen just outside of Jerusalem. It was also called Tophet, or the valley of dead bones. Jeremiah wrote.

The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished (Jeremiah 31:40).

Place Of Child Sacrifices


In Old Testament times this had been the scene of the practice of child-sacrifice under some of the godless kings of Israel. The prophet Jeremiah wrote.

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart (Jeremiah 7:31).

To Molech

The children were sacrificed to the false god Molech. The image of Molech had the head of a bull with outstretched arms. A fire burned in the stomach of the idol while the child was placed in the arms and then sacrificed.

Ahaz

Speaking of the evil king Ahaz, the Bible says.

And he made offerings in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and made his sons pass through fire, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel (2 Chronicles 28:3).

He made his own sons pass through this horrible place of human sacrifice.

Abominations Stopped By Josiah

During the reign of Josiah the sacrifices were stopped.

And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire to Molech (2 Kings 23:10).

Place Of Burning Refuse

The valley became the dumping ground for the sewage and refuse of the city. It was a place of crawling worms and maggots. By defiling this place with refuse, Josiah stopped the child sacrifices. Fires burned continually to destroy the garbage and impurities. Hence the name Gehenna came to be used as a symbol of punishment. The prophet Isaiah wrote:

And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the ones who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh (Isaiah 66:24).

From this valley a terrible and putrid smoke arose continually.

Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze (Isaiah 30:33).

Jesus And Gehenna


Jesus used the symbolism of Gehenna to describe the place of everlasting punishment.

It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to Gehenna into the fire that shall never be quenched (Mark 9:43).

Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna (Luke 12:5).

He spoke concerning Gehenna, not only to warn people, but to condemn the hypocritical religious leaders. Jesus said.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, to make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves (Matthew 23:15).

Outside The City

The symbolism of Gehenna is also found in its location. Gehenna is a place outside the city of Jerusalem. The ultimate fate of the wicked is suffering outside of the gates of the New Jerusalem.

Comparison To Hades

Gehenna is not Hades. Hades is a temporary place of the dead where only their souls exist. In Gehenna, wicked dead exist in both body and soul. The suffering in Gehenna is eternal while the suffering in Hades is temporal.

Presently Unoccupied

Gehenna, or hell, is presently unoccupied. In the future, when God judges the wicked angels along with evil humanity, then hell, or Gehenna, will become inhabited.

Summary


Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. Jesus used it as an illustration of the final judgment of the wicked. Gehenna is the permanent place where both the body and the soul are reunited to spend eternity apart from God. It is located outside the new Jerusalem, the place where believers will be with the Lord."
 

Angel Water

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Second Thessalonians 1:7–9 says that those who do not know God “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might”
Psalm 139:7-10 promises even those in Sheol, the grave , will not be outside the presence of God.
I think Hell is separation from God. And that for overlong translations and politics have made translations of the original teaching mean a place of fire and brimstone.
When Jesus said in the Beatitudes, blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy, wouldn't it be quite the conundrum if that were speaking of humans and omitting God? Being opening the eternal punishment place for Satan and his angels to humans would not represent mercy at all.
Yet we know , God is mercy.And love.
Hell can't be eternal place of punishment when we're told God can destroy the body in Hell.
 

OzSpen

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Now I could be mistaken but "Gehenna" was the trash dump for Jerusalem that was set on fire from time to time.

I'm not sure about the origin of "Tartarus"
John,

The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening (Isaiah 30:33). It was a place utterly filthy, disgusting and repulsive to the nose and eyes. Gehenna presented such a vivid image that Christ used it as a symbolic depiction of hell: a place of eternal torment and constant uncleanness, where the fires never ceased burning and the worms never stopped crawling (Matthew 10:28; Mark 9:47–48) [What is Gehenna? GotQuestions]
As for Tartarus,

In ancient Greek mythology, Tartarus was a horrible pit of torment in the afterlife. It was lower than even Hades, the place of the dead. According to the Greeks, Tartarus was populated by ferocious monsters and the worst of criminals.

The Greek word Tartarus appears only once in the entire New Testament. Second Peter 2:4 says, “God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to [Tartarus], putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.” Most English versions translate tartarus as “hell” or “lowest hell.” The word Tartarus can be defined as “the deepest abyss of Hades" (What is Tartarus? GotQuestions).
Oz
 

for_his_glory

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Oz,

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
 

chessman

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Does Scripture say "can" or "will?"
"Will"

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, whenever he should come to be glorified on that day by his saints and to be marveled at by all who believe, because our testimony was believed among you,
Scripture even tells us "when" and with who;

at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame
 

WIP

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who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,
I would counter with underlining the entire statement like this.
who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength

Now, one has to determine what is meant by "eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord."

I understood that the verse you were making reference to was Matthew 10:28 (that was what I thought anyway) and in the NKJV it is worded as follows:
But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't see this saying that He will destroy both soul and body but that He is able to do so. So to rectify that with 2 Thessalonians it seems that one probably shouldn't stop where you ended your underline but maybe continue to the end of the phrase? In my mind and understanding, being away from the Lord for eternity would be a life of eternal destruction.
 

Angel Water

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Does Scripture say "can" or "will?"
The current translations say, "can". Which means what? Eternal suffering unrelenting at God's discretion? Or he "can" destroy the body and soul and make it stop?
 

Jim Parker

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The current translations say, "can". Which means what? Eternal suffering unrelenting at God's discretion?
No.
Not at all.
God offers eternal peace, joy, love, life, etc. , ie: the Kingdom of Heaven, to anyone who want's it.
To those who refuse it, they get what they want; everything that is not peace, joy, love, life, etc.
People go to hell at their own discretion; it's their choice.
Heaven or hell: pick one.

John 3:36 (RSV) He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life
,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.


John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death

Ro 2:6-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
 

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