Hell, what is it?

[Edward]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,​

Ohhh, I hadn't ever really seen that, or noticed it. But there it is! Thanks Brother.

 

[atpollard]

Steve Brown once described hell as someplace that was not Hot but Cold, and the Devil called lots of meetings.
I have recently begun to suspect that the topic of these meetings is OSAS vs OSNAS.
YMMV

 

[Bick]

I wondered if this would be asked.

I am speaking of the second death - lake of fire - the hell Jesus speaks of in Matthew 10:28.

Bick here. Lots of interesting questions, Nathan.

Of course, the final word is the Scriptures.
Throughout the Bible the Lord contrasts life vs. death.
All humans will die once, with some exceptions (those individuals who died yet were raised to life but died again; and those in the Body of Christ who are alive at the "rapture.").
The lake of fire is called the second death because it is the second (and last) death for those thrown into it.
Rev. 20:14-15.
The word in most English Versions where Jesus warned about

 

[for_his_glory]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

 

[Free]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

This is all just begging the question. The issue is that "hell" is just an English word used for two or three different places, depending on how those are defined. So we must first define what concept hell is referring to. If we were to say that hell refers to the final destination of unbelievers, then the lake of fire is hell. If we were to say that it is merely the grave or pit, then that would be hell, not the lake of fire.

When looking at Strong's, it is largely based off the KJV, which incorrectly translates three different words as "hell". This is why many versions leave hades as is and translate gehenna as "hell". Hades is the equivalent of sheol, which is the grave, the place unbelievers (and arguably believers) go when they die. What we see is that gehenna is the final destination of unbelievers, which strongly implies that "hell," as it is most commonly understood--eternal separation from God--is the lake of fire.

 

[Bick]

Bick here. Lots of interesting questions, Nathan.

Of course, the final word is the Scriptures.
Throughout the Bible the Lord contrasts life vs. death.
All humans will die once, with some exceptions (those individuals who died yet were raised to life but died again; and those in the Body of Christ who are alive at the "rapture.").
The lake of fire is called the second death because it is the second (and last) death for those thrown into it.
Rev. 20:14-15.
The word in most English Versions where Jesus warned about hell, is Geheena. Like Free pointed out, it is but one of three words in the Greek wrongly rendered "hell".
Tyndale, the first to render an English version, coined the word "HELL," because of his preconceived belief in Conscious Eternal Torment as part of RC doctrine initiated by St. Augustine. Therefore, because Jesus warned of the fires of Geheena, Tyndale rendered it "fires of hell." Yet, if he would have kept the words in their originals: "Geheena, Hades and Tartsrus," how much more accurate our understandind of the Scriptures would be.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is all just begging the question. The issue is that "hell" is just an English word used for two or three different places, depending on how those are defined. So we must first define what concept hell is referring to. If we were to say that hell refers to the final destination of unbelievers, then the lake of fire is hell. If we were to say that it is merely the grave or pit, then that would be hell, not the lake of fire.

When looking at Strong's, it is largely based off the KJV, which incorrectly translates three different words as "hell". This is why many versions leave hades as is and translate gehenna as "hell". Hades is the equivalent of sheol, which is the grave, the place unbelievers (and arguably believers) go when they die. What we see is that gehenna is the final destination of unbelievers, which strongly implies that "hell," as it is most commonly understood--eternal separation from God--is the lake of fire.

Free with all due respect we have been through all of this before and I will believe the definitions of the KJV per the scriptures that are given.
I do have one question for you. If Gehenna is the final destination for the unbelievers than can you explain Rev 20:14?

 

[Free]

Free with all due respect we have been through all of this before and I will believe the definitions of the KJV per the scriptures that are given.

The difference is that your position has no basis; there is no reason to hold it.

I do have one question for you. If Gehenna is the final destination for the unbelievers than can you explain Rev 20:14?

Case in point:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

It is Hades, not hell, that is being spoken of. Remember, Hades is the equivalent of the OT Sheol, which is the grave. And this makes the best sense of the passage in that the grave gives up the dead that are in it and then it gets thrown in into the lake of fire as it is no longer necessary. Again, that is an error in the part of the KJV.

 

[for_his_glory]

The difference is that your position has no basis; there is no reason to hold it.


Case in point:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

It is Hades, not hell, that is being spoken of. Remember, Hades is the equivalent of the OT Sheol, which is the grave. And this makes the best sense of the passage in that the grave gives up the dead that are in it and then it gets thrown in into the lake of fire as it is no longer necessary. Again, that is an error in the part of the KJV.

Hades or hell, they both mean the same thing as both describe are the underground/grave. In the Hebrew it is Hades, in the Greek it is Hell.

 

[stovebolts]

Hades or hell, they both mean the same thing as both describe are the underground/grave. In the Hebrew it is Hades, in the Greek it is Hell.

I think this is your misunderstanding.

Hell is Norse aka English
Hades is Greek
Tartarus is Greek
Shoel is Hebrew
Gehenna is Hebrew

Where it gets real fun is when Jesus uses Gehhena in one passage, and Hades in another.

 

[Free]

Hades or hell, they both mean the same thing as both describe are the underground/grave. In the Hebrew it is Hades, in the Greek it is Hell.

Stovebolts has given the languages those words are found in. The problem is that Hades is not Gehenna but the KJV erroneously translates both as hell.

Hades is the grave, a temporary abode of the dead prior to the final judgement. It is never used as the final destination of unbelievers nor does Jesus ever warn about it.

Gehenna is always used as the place of punishment and torment, a place that one must try to avoid at all costs, according to Jesus. It is used if the final destination of unbelievers.

 

[stovebolts]

Gehenna is always used as the place of punishment and torment, a place that one must try to avoid at all costs, according to Jesus. It is used if the final destination of unbelievers.

To be academically correct, which means exposure to other ideas without having to agree or disagree. What you wrote about Gehenna is accurate from a Jewish perspective. And it should be since Gehenna is a Jewish word with a rich history.
It is a place of terrible misery and a place to be avoided at all costs. However, to the Jews, only the righteous bypassed Gehenna. In other words, only a Rabi or prophet avoided it because they would have fulfilled the 613 mitvos.
As Jew, it was / is believed that all souls go through Gehenna as a type of purification. However, it was never a life sentence.
It was / is also believed in Jewish theology that a good Rabi could pick up souls on his way through and remove them from Gehenna.

It is this thought that brought about the idea of purgatory.

Within modern Christianity, most believe the unbeliever goes to Gehenna for all time and only those in Christ avoid the torment of Gehenna.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam

The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

 

[Free]

Matthew 5:29, 30; Mark 9:43-48 Jesus uses the prophetic symbolic of Gehenna as calling it hell or fires of hell meaning the grave/pit where many were burned to death there as the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the dead corpse. Also note Isaiah 66:24.

Jesus uses gehenna as a metaphor for the final destination of unbelievers. He does not use it to mean the grave/pit, that is what he uses hades for.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (ESV)

Each instance of "hell" in the above passages is gehenna. Notice that Jesus is clearly talking about the final destination of unbelievers--"It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." He is contrasting entering life with going to hell, and that hell is a place of "unquenchable fire." It is very reasonable to conclude then that gehenna is the lake of fire. Hades is simply the grave where the dead go to await the final judgement, after which, they are then thrown into hell, which is gehenna, the lake of fire.

 

[Bick]

The difference is that your position has no basis; there is no reason to hold it.


Case in point:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

It is Hades, not hell, that is being spoken of. Remember, Hades is the equivalent of the OT Sheol, which is the grave. And this makes the best sense of the passage in that the grave gives up the dead that are in it and then it gets thrown in into the lake of fire as it is no longer necessary. Again, that is an error in the part of the KJV.

From what I learned, to have sinned so bad that the Sanhedren would condemn someone to Geheena, meant he would be stoned to death and his body thrown into Gehenna, where it would be burned up( or partially), and where maggots would feed on what is not burned up.
Being cast into Geheena is not eternal; they will be raised to be judged for all their deeds before the Great White Throne, then cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Free]

From what I learned, to have sinned so bad that the Sanhedren would condemn someone to Geheena, meant he would be stoned to death and his body thrown into Gehenna, where it would be burned up( or partially), and where maggots would feed on what is not burned up.
Being cast into Geheena is not eternal; they will be raised to be judged for all their deeds before the Great White Throne, then cast into the lake of fire.

Gehenna is the eternal place, the lake of fire, which the verses I have indicate. Hades is the temporal place from which the dead are raised and cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Bick]

I don't think there is a really clear description in scripture but, there's enough to know we don't want to be assigned there.

The only "thing" that always existed is God. Everything else is created.
Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Everyone who does not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who do not show mercy. (Mat 25:41-43)

They chose the path of death rather than the path of life.
Those who do the works of the flesh.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
People go there because they choose their own way over God's way.

Bick here. Yes, the unrighteous, unbelievers etc, will certainly be judged before the great white throne and receive their due. And yet, we read in Rom. 9:21-25, that God is the potter and we humans are the clay, and God makes "one vessel for beauty and another for menial use." (RSV, etc).

Why? "To show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made ready for destruction,...to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy."

And, when God's plan for the Ages (Eons) is complete; all enemies having been "put under "Christ's feet", the last enemy being eliminated is death. Doesn't that mean that all who have dead in the lake of fire will be made alive with their hearts
changed? Ref. 1 Cor. 15:22-26.
:

 

[Bick]

Free, I don't understand how you can equate "Geheena" with the "lake of fire". Is it because the term "unquenchable fire" is used as in Mark 9:43 and 48?

 

[Bick]

Ohhh, I hadn't ever really seen that, or noticed it. But there it is! Thanks Brother.

The word "eternal" used in 2 Thes. 1:9, cannot mean "unending," because those destroyed at Christ's return will be raised to be judged at the great white throne.
It is unfortunate that the Greek word "aionion" is rendered "eternal", when the literal meaning by its use cannot mean "unending," but should be rendered "age-lasting, age-during or even eonian."
Translations that are the most literal, are Youngs Literal, Rotherham's Emphasized and Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott are some.

 

[Free]

Free, I don't understand how you can equate "Geheena" with the "lake of fire". Is it because the term "unquenchable fire" is used as in Mark 9:43 and 48?

I've shown how, complete with Scripture. Jesus uses Gehenna as the final destination of unbelievers, even speaking of it as a place of fire. In Revelation, we see that the lake of fire is the final destination of unbelievers. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that Gehenna is the lake of fire; the conclusion follows from the premises.