Infant Immersion

[Doug Brents]

I agree that God's Justice and Rightousness is on display in regard to those spoken about in Matthew 7 because those in Mathew 7 were not doing the work of our Lord. Instead, their reward was in the fruit they harvested for themselves.

One could apply this principal to adult baptism if one was taught adult baptism in error.

By their fruits we will know them. If a person baptized as an infant, not understanding adult baptism as we do exhibits the fruits of the spirit as well as the fruit associated with repentance, and in their mind they believe they are living out the gospel in servitude to our Lord, is God's Justice and Rightousness on display when they are condemned to hell for eternity?

If yes, on what basis?

Yes, because they only got wet when they were dunked in water as a child. Biblical immersion (baptism) requires belief on the part of the immersed, not the parents. It requires confession of Jesus as Lord on the part of the immersed, not their parents. It requires repentance on the part of the immersed, not their parents. There is no power or holiness inherent in the water. The efficacy of immersion is in the Spirit who reacts to the heart condition of the one being immersed. If there is no belief, then there is no Spirit, then there is no cleansing of sin.

 

[Sparkey]

thru time until the end of the world.

Thanks for the auto-correct. Yes, there is a difference between, "until the end of the world," and, "will always be,."

Heck-fire man, we don't even kno what we shall be, only that we are told that we shall be like The Christ. Anybody care to guess about Time or even if it will continue?

Who knows? There is only ONE.

Let us therefore strive to be like that one.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, because they only got wet when they were dunked in water as a child. Biblical immersion (baptism) requires belief on the part of the immersed, not the parents. It requires confession of Jesus as Lord on the part of the immersed, not their parents. It requires repentance on the part of the immersed, not their parents. There is no power or holiness inherent in the water. The efficacy of immersion is in the Spirit who reacts to the heart condition of the one being immersed. If there is no belief, then there is no Spirit, then there is no cleansing of sin.

So for you and certain crowds within the church of Christ, salvation is a process / equation which set in stone for adults as the only means in which to receive God's saving grace.

Your process teaches,
No adult baptism = no salvation = no exceptions.

In your view, is God then confined to express his gift of salvation only through the above process?

 

[Cygnus]

Regeneration, the new birth, happens when one is water baptized. Hence belief and confession are UNTO salvation Rom 10:10.

Funny how Eph 2:1-8 leaves that out. Same with John 3:16....

If what you are saying is correct theology one would think the Bible would have a chapter or two explaining water baptism.

Acts 10:44-48 tells of a bunch of people saved..filled with the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptized. Read it here.

It seems to me you're misapplying the verse you presented.

 

[Cygnus]

Belief and confession without repentance and baptism do not save. Again, belief is UNTO righteousness and confession is UNTO salvation.

John 3:16 says who ever believes has eternal life. They are saved. Right?

 

[Cygnus]

I cannot find those that are in error, false doctrine will be saved anyway even if it is done in ignorance, 2 John 1:9-10. Even those that know not God (ignorant of God) will be lost 2 Thess 1:8.

One can know the truth, Jn 8:32; it can be understood Eph 3:4. Whether one accepts the truth or accepts falsehoods as truth is up to the individual. I cannot speak for your father in law or others but only for myself. I am confident in my faith and in what I believe and will not be driven like the wind with every teaching that comes from all the various groups. Going along with contradiction I can then KNOW for certain I am wrong.

Yes, if I am wrong in what I believe I will be lost.

One reason I spend time on forums as this one is to not only carry out the great commission but to see what other people believe and to have my beliefs be challenged. Out of the many years and many forums I have participated on I have yet to have anyone to come even remotely close proving to me water baptism is not essential...hence I continue and will continue to believe it. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21 et al are simple enough for even someone like me to understand and I am far from being the 'sharpest knife in the drawer'.

I do not know Mr Hicks but if he teaches water baptism is not essential he certainly would not be considered renowned among the churches of Christ nor would he ever be invited to teach/preach were I attend.

Water baptism being essential to salvation is a 2000 year old settled issue.

I always wondered why Mark 16:16 doesn't say.... but he who does not believe...and is not baptized... will be condemned.

In Acts 2:38 they are saved in the preceding verse...37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” They believed..they John 3:16'ed and were born again. 1Peter 3:21....that's a thread unto itself.

 

[Doug Brents]

So for you and certain crowds within the church of Christ, salvation is a process / equation which set in stone for adults as the only means in which to receive God's saving grace.

Your process teaches,
No adult baptism = no salvation = no exceptions.

In your view, is God then confined to express his gift of salvation only through the above process?

Is God constrained by us in any way? NO.
Does God constrain Himself? I believe He does.
Did God have to constrain Himself? Absolutely not.

God gave us His covenant written in the Bible. He laid out His path to salvation in that written Word. He could have written anything He wanted in that Word (and He did). Jesus says that those who receive His blessing (the Holy Spirit) are not those who just call on His name, but those who obey the Father (Matt 7:21). Thus the indwelling of the Spirit, forgiveness, salvation, etc. are contingent upon our obedience, not just a passive belief.

 

[Cygnus]

Is God constrained by us in any way? NO.
Does God constrain Himself? I believe He does.
Did God have to constrain Himself? Absolutely not.

God gave us His covenant written in the Bible. He laid out His path to salvation in that written Word. He could have written anything He wanted in that Word (and He did). Jesus says that those who receive His blessing (the Holy Spirit) are not those who just call on His name, but those who obey the Father (Matt 7:21). Thus the indwelling of the Spirit, forgiveness, salvation, etc. are contingent upon our obedience, not just a passive belief.

Would you be able to tell us how obedient one has to be to receive eternal life?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I always wondered why Mark 16:16 doesn't say.... but he who does not believe...and is not baptized... will be condemned.

In Acts 2:38 they are saved in the preceding verse...37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” They believed..they John 3:16'ed and were born again. 1Peter 3:21....that's a thread unto itself.

Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects 1) salvation 2) condemnation. From the verse, there are two requirements for salvation: belief and baptism. To be condemned requires just one requirement: unbelief.

An unbeliever is an unbaptized person, therefore when Jesus says "he that believeth not" this phrase already includes not being baptized.

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Acts 2:38, they would not have their sin remitted (saved) until they repented and were baptized, v38. If they were saved prior to verse 38 they did not know it for why ask "what must we do" if they were already saved? Why would Peter tell them in v40 to 'save yourselves" if they were already saved prior to verse 38? From Acts 2:41 shows they received the gospel message when they were baptized. Logically this means not being baptized is rejection of the gospel word.

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NT belief of Jn 3:16 includes repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16)

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1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

John 3:16 says who ever believes has eternal life. They are saved. Right?

Do you understand that "believeth" of Jn 3:16 is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where believeth includes repentance confession and baptism?

 

[Cygnus]

Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects 1) salvation 2) condemnation. From the verse, there are two requirements for salvation: belief and baptism. To be condemned requires just one requirement: unbelief.

An unbeliever is an unbaptized person, therefore when Jesus says "he that believeth not" this phrase already includes not being baptized.

===========

Acts 2:38, they would not have their sin remitted (saved) until they repented and were baptized, v38. If they were saved prior to verse 38 they did not know it for why ask "what must we do" if they were already saved? Why would Peter tell them in v40 to 'save yourselves" if they were already saved prior to verse 38? From Acts 2:41 shows they received the gospel message when they were baptized. Logically this means not being baptized is rejection of the gospel word.

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NT belief of Jn 3:16 includes repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (Mk 16:16)

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1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves.

There's another thing you've been not seeing....Jesus lead a perfect sinless life in my place. Jesus died on the cross in my place...Jesus fulfilled the law in my place....if baptism is a requirement for salvation, Jesus even did that in my place.

As to what must they do...they asked the question. Basically, what's next Peter? Peter said, repent and publicly demonstrate your faith because of your salvation. Keep in mind the guys in Acts 10 who were saved THEN baptized...just like the guys in Acts 2.

 

[Cygnus]

Do you understand that "believeth" of Jn 3:16 is used as a synecdoche (a part for the whole) where believeth includes repentance confession and baptism?

Now you're inserting words into the Bible to make your theology work.

How about the verses that say call upon the name of the lord and you shall be saved? I suppose you'll be saying calling is also a synecdoche.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Funny how Eph 2:1-8 leaves that out. Same with John 3:16....

The Bible does not contradict itself. Grace or the blood of Christ are not specifically mentioned in Jn 3:16, does that mean they are not necessary to salvation? One has to examine all verse that deal with salvation, not just one the ones that mention "belief". Lk 13:3,5 means all the belief only in the world will never save the person who will not repent.

If what you are saying is correct theology one would think the Bible would have a chapter or two explaining water baptism.

Water baptism would have to be commanded one time in one verse to make it essential to salvation but it is discussed in many verses in many NT books.

Acts 10:44-48 tells of a bunch of people saved..filled with the Holy Spirit BEFORE they are baptized. Read it here.

It seems to me you're misapplying the verse you presented.

Nothing says being baptized with the HS saved Cornelius, that idea is assumed into the text. No verse commands anyone to be baptized with the HS, no verse teaches baptism with the HS saves-remits sins.

--the gospel is God's power to save Rom 1:16 and Peter would tell Cornelius "words" by which he would be saved (Acts 11:14) and those saving gospel words included the command to be water baptized Acts 10:47-48. Not until water baptized would Cornelius be saved.

--God had determined the gospel first go to the Jew then to the Gentile. In Acts 10 we have it going to the Gentile. Since God's means of saving men is by water baptism, forbidding water baptism from the Gentiles (Acts 10:47) would be going against God and salvation going to the Gentiles.

--Acts 15:11 Peter say Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way. All who are saved will be saved in a like manner way and we see in Acts 2 the Jews were saved by being commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Gentiles in like manner were commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

--the purpose of God giving Peter a vision (Acts 10:11ff) and the HS poured upon the Gentiles was to prove to the Jews salvation was not meant for them only but was to go to the Gentiles also. In Acts 11 Peter tells the Jews in Jerusalem of these two things God did and the result of it was the Jews understood salvation was to go to the Gentiles Acts 11:18. Had Peter not water baptized them he would have been "withstanding God" in trying to keep salvation from going to the Gentiles Acts 11:17.

--Joel prophesied the spirit would be poured out upon 'all flesh' with all flesh meaning the two groups Jews and Gentiles. The Spirit was poured out in Acts 2 on the Apostles (Jews) and in Acts 10 upon Gentiles thereby fulfilling (ending, ceasing) Joel's prophecy meaning this outpouring of the HS does not exist anymore.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thanks for the auto-correct. Yes, there is a difference between, "until the end of the world," and, "will always be,."

Heck-fire man, we don't even kno what we shall be, only that we are told that we shall be like The Christ. Anybody care to guess about Time or even if it will continue?

Who knows? There is only ONE.

Let us therefore strive to be like that one.

The necessity of water baptism always has and always will be taught by the church all the way until the church is taken into heaven at the end of time. Water baptism is how disciples are made therefore water baptism is necessary to perpetuate Christianity thru time until Christ returns/end of time.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Have you always been right?


Please answer this.


Is God's Justice and Rightousness on full display when a believer who has dedicated his / her life to serving the Lord destine to eternal damnation because they were erroneously baptized as an infant and not as an adult.

No, I am not perfectly sinless.

But one must be doctrinally correct to be saved. Those that claim doctrine does not matter are actually saying the Bible does not matter therefore men can do as they please, salvation is a free for all, do what you feel no need for a Bible.

Are you insisting man made ideas (origianl sin, infant baptism) take precedence over the Bible?

Cornelius was a just man, devout, feared God, prayed to God always, did much good but was lost. So any argument about God fearing people dies with Cornelius.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Now you're inserting words into the Bible to make your theology work.

How about the verses that say call upon the name of the lord and you shall be saved? I suppose you'll be saying calling is also a synecdoche.

One cannot cherry pick one verse as Jn 3:16 and then wrongly claim "belief only" saved while purposefully ignoring other verses that require repentance, confession and baptism.

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The phrase calling upon the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord says.
in Acts 2 Peter quoted Joel's prophecy "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." THis prophecy was fulfilled in v38:

call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved (remission of sins)

Until one repents and and is baptized one has not called upon the name of the Lord. Acts 2:41 one is rejecting the gospel message until one is baptized.

 

[stovebolts]

, I am not perfectly sinless.

In post 317 you wrote:

I cannot find those that are in error, false doctrine will be saved anyway even if it is done in ignorance, 2 John 1:9-10. Even those that know not God (ignorant of God) will be lost 2 Thess 1:8.

I watched my Father in law struggle with his eternal fate the last two weeks of his life because of this line of thinking.

How do you know that your not in a state of ignorance? And if I can add, this is starting to sound similar to the thoughts and ideas of the early gnostics where salvation was more about knowledge. It is this line of thinking that I believe Matthew writes about as Jesus summerizes his thoughts at the tail end of chapter 7. You see, it's not about having the right answers, it's about having the right relationships because if our relationship with God is right, then our lives will give credence to the words we say.

The way I understand salvation, is sathrough faith...faith in action. What does James say? I'll show you my faith by what I do. What we do produces fruit or it remains stubble which will be burnt. We all have stubble that will be burnt because to a degree, none of us are perfect. Instead, we are being perfected.

Are you insisting man made ideas (origianl sin, infant baptism) take precedence over the Bible?

Not at all. They are destructive in many ways and are pushed on parishioners as a mechanism for control and church authority. I view them equally to the doctrine some in the churches of Christ adhere to, such as using Baptism to divide the brotherhood instead of uniting it.

Cornelius was a just man, devout, feared God, prayed to God always, did much good but was lost. So any argument about God fearing people dies with Cornelius.

Please explain, I don't think I'm following you.

 

[Sparkey]

until the church is taken into heaven at the end of time

No argument here. This one sometimes called Sparkey is in training and has asked to be judged regarding 'complaining' and/or 'grumbling', but rather let all things give glory to God.

If, for any, it ever comes down to a choice to either be judged by man or to find oneself as having fallen into The Hand of the Living God?!?

Choose the later.

 

[Doug Brents]

Would you be able to tell us how obedient one has to be to receive eternal life?

Certainly. When I began this study for myself, years ago, I began by searching out every place in Scripture that talks about salvation, or anything that is related to salvation: ie. forgiveness of sin, sanctification, justification, etc.

Then I looked at the context to see if it was talking about saving physically, or saving spiritually. I ignored the ones dealing with physical salvation, and of the spiritual salvation passages, I looked at what Scripture said leads to that salvation.

After listing them all, I grouped them into similar categories. In the end I grouped them down to four categories:
Belief
Repentance from sin
Confession of Jesus' as Lord
Immersion into water

All of these are listed in Scripture as leading to Salvation:
Believe - John 3:16, Rom 10:10, Mark 16:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Repentance - Acts 3:19 - "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,..."
Confession - Rom 10:10 - "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Immersion - Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized [immersed] will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
There are many more passages for each of these, these are just some examples.

Now, when there are multiple things in Scripture that say the same result comes from doing different things, we have choices in how we interpret those things. We can either:
1. Choose a doctrine that says, follow one of them and ignore all the others.
2. Say that each person can choose which one he/she wants to follow, and everyone is ok doing the one he/she thinks is right.
3. Combine all of them into one cohesive, all encompassing, doctrine.

The only one of these that is Biblically correct is #3. All must be merged. That being the case, leaving any of them out leaves you short of salvation.

If you believe but do nothing else, your faith is dead and worthless.
If you confess that Jesus is Lord but don't believe it, you lie.
If you believe and confess but don't repent, you don't remain lost because you remain living in sin.
If you are immersed but don't believe, you just get wet.
If you believe but are not immersed, you have not connected with the cleansing of the Spirit who takes action when we are buried with Christ (Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:11-14).

 

[Cygnus]

The Bible does not contradict itself. Grace or the blood of Christ are not specifically mentioned in Jn 3:16, does that mean they are not necessary to salvation? One has to examine all verse that deal with salvation, not just one the ones that mention "belief". Lk 13:3,5 means all the belief only in the world will never save the person who will not repent.



Water baptism would have to be commanded one time in one verse to make it essential to salvation but it is discussed in many verses in many NT books.



Nothing says being baptized with the HS saved Cornelius, that idea is assumed into the text. No verse commands anyone to be baptized with the HS, no verse teaches baptism with the HS saves-remits sins.

--the gospel is God's power to save Rom 1:16 and Peter would tell Cornelius "words" by which he would be saved (Acts 11:14) and those saving gospel words included the command to be water baptized Acts 10:47-48. Not until water baptized would Cornelius be saved.

--God had determined the gospel first go to the Jew then to the Gentile. In Acts 10 we have it going to the Gentile. Since God's means of saving men is by water baptism, forbidding water baptism from the Gentiles (Acts 10:47) would be going against God and salvation going to the Gentiles.

--Acts 15:11 Peter say Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way. All who are saved will be saved in a like manner way and we see in Acts 2 the Jews were saved by being commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Gentiles in like manner were commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

--the purpose of God giving Peter a vision (Acts 10:11ff) and the HS poured upon the Gentiles was to prove to the Jews salvation was not meant for them only but was to go to the Gentiles also. In Acts 11 Peter tells the Jews in Jerusalem of these two things God did and the result of it was the Jews understood salvation was to go to the Gentiles Acts 11:18. Had Peter not water baptized them he would have been "withstanding God" in trying to keep salvation from going to the Gentiles Acts 11:17.

--Joel prophesied the spirit would be poured out upon 'all flesh' with all flesh meaning the two groups Jews and Gentiles. The Spirit was poured out in Acts 2 on the Apostles (Jews) and in Acts 10 upon Gentiles thereby fulfilling (ending, ceasing) Joel's prophecy meaning this outpouring of the HS does not exist anymore.

Pretty much nonsense.

Just imagine the poor man who believes in Jesus for salvation...then on his way to the baptismal pool he slips on a wet step...falls...bumps his head and dies. Wow, so close yet so far.