Infant Immersion

[JLB]

I agree for there is a big night and day difference between "believe" and "believe alone" as there is between "faith" and "faith alone". Jesus nor His Apostles ever taught 'believe alone' or 'faith alone'.

Amen to that bro!!!

 

[stovebolts]

That requires compromise

No, it requires compassion and understanding.
I believe that grace is not a licence to sin. Grace says you've missed the mark, but let's walk this walk together. Condemnation is analogous to saying Racca to your brother. Or does this raise the question "who is my brother?". In short, I understand that many in the cofc do not recognize "other religions, I e, Baptists, methodists, RCC, Nazarene etc at "brothers". If this is also your position, then how does Jesus teach us to deal with those "outside the church". Are we to have an attitude of condemnation toward them?

Catholics must learn their way out of this error. In the meantime I will not compromise. Why do you continue to insist I must compromise but do not seek compromise from Catholics in what they believe?

This is not as much about what the Catholics believe as it is on how we act toward those we disagree with. You and I agree that infant baptism is not biblical, but simply condemning them to hell based on not being baptized as adults is not biblical and lacks the fundementals understanding of God's rightousness and justice.

How many posts have I made showing obedience, as submitting to water baptism is a work of obedience? And that obedience is meeting a condition God placed upon a free gift in order to receive the free gift. Therefore obedience earns NOTHING. Out of all the obedience that men did in the Bible has anyone here yet produced the first verse that says Noah's Abraham's Paul's etc obedience earned their justification? No.

Job was an upright man, rightous even in God's sight. What do we learn from Job? We learn that God isn't only interested in going through the motions and meeting the requirements. Instead, God is seeking a relationship with his people. God wants us to see him, not just know of him, or talk about him.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Baptism is a response to the gospel. We don't force baptism as some kind of law that needs to be obeyed or we bear the consequences. Instead, baptism is a response made willingly without duress, much like the Eunuch. We call this faith in action because it's belief in motion and fear has no place in the baptismal pool. Nobody should get married out of duress, nor should anyone enter the baptismal waters in duress.

There is NO COMPASSION in letting people continue in error. The compassion is to get them out of error.
No compassion in compromise.

Time and time again Jesus showed great compassion to those living in error. The greatest act of compassion can be seen on the cross where he says, Father forgive them...to those who earlier vowed, Let this be on us and our children. These are the same ones we see in Acts 2.

There is no compromise with sin as it needs to be accounted for, and it has been through the cross. With love, there is always grace and a hope to those who are willing to receive it at the right time. We do not dictate that time, God does and for those who willfully refuse, God does not rejoice over their destruction

Jesus was not compassionate in that He would not compromise with the Pharisees but condemned them instead?

Not every Pharasis was bad, so it's wrong to paint them with the same brush. Regardless, what I want to separate are the teachers and the students. Your average Catholic / Lutherine etc is taught infant baptism from sanctioned doctrines supported from the top down without much question. Teachers will be held at a much higher level than students.

Let me circle back to God's rightousness and how it pertains to the centuries of good hearted Catholic parationers who lived their life for God... But more than that, they loved God and lived out their faith in obedience as they knew how in loving God and their neighbor.

I hear you saying that God is Just and his rightousness is on full display by sending every devoted follower of Christ to eternal punishment because of their ignorance or were beguiled by erroneous church teachings on infant baptism on the sole fact that they were taught wrong and did not understand baptism was for believers only.

 

[Sparkey]

Might I interject?

This thread reminds me of one of those family squabbles around the Thanksgiving table. Jesus never participated in a 'formal' Thanksgiving dinner, but he did indeed give thanks.

We may observe that there is No argument to be found if and when we back our point-of-view out past the cultural divide.

Just saying.

 

[JLB]

Might I interject?

This thread reminds me of one of those family squabbles around the Thanksgiving table. Jesus never participated in a 'formal' Thanksgiving dinner, but he did indeed give thanks.

We may observe that there is No argument to be found if and when we back our point-of-view out past the cultural divide.

Just saying.

Pass the dressing... and a little more of that cranberry “stuff” grandma made.

 

[stovebolts]

This thread reminds me of one of those family squabbles around the Thanksgiving table. Jesus never participated in a 'formal' Thanksgiving dinner, but he did indeed give thanks.

Why yes, you are on the outside looking in on an in house squabble between two cofc members over issues that predate my birth. (although I am no longer a member as of recent). I suspect most readers don’t fully understand the broader context in which we squabble.

Gods justice and righteousness always has an element of mercy. If either are void of mercy, then it’s not justice, nor is it righteousness.

Jesus said, “if you knew what it meant, I desire mercy not sacrifice....”. We see this clearly in the old law, our school teacher. Leviticus 23 is heavy in churchism. By that I mean it’s full of the religious duties of the priests for the high holidays celebrated in community. However, in its midsts it is repeated the second time that a farmer must not harvest the edges of his crops, for that is how God feeds the needy. One might ask, “”why is this here, and why is Moses repeating himself”. After all, it has nothing to do with the high holidays or the priestly duties. Ahhh, but it most certainly does!

In short, religious rite never supersedes mercy. to which Jesus scolds the Pharisees because they receive tithes at the widows expense. A religious rite never trumps mercy.

I believe Baptism has its proper place in the role of our Salvation and as a means of entering the community of Christ. Baptism, is an act of Gods grace, righteousness and justice.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I am a new member here, and I was just rereading through the "statement of faith" at the top of the forums. I have a problem with the line where it says, "those [immersed] as infants will not be excluded."

Immersion of an infant does nothing other than get the infant wet, and possibly angry. The passage cited as support for accepting infants who were immersed excludes them rather emphatically in saying "make disciples, and immerse them ..." You cannot make a disciple of someone who does not understand what you are talking about (an infant). They do not understand the need for salvation. They do not understand what sin is. They do not even understand the difference between right and wrong.

Its true what you say, we can anoint infants and dedicate them to God. Samuel's mother did this to him. Its in the bible.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, it requires compassion and understanding.
I believe that grace is not a licence to sin. Grace says you've missed the mark, but let's walk this walk together. Condemnation is analogous to saying Racca to your brother. Or does this raise the question "who is my brother?". In short, I understand that many in the cofc do not recognize "other religions, I e, Baptists, methodists, RCC, Nazarene etc at "brothers". If this is also your position, then how does Jesus teach us to deal with those "outside the church". Are we to have an attitude of condemnation toward them?


This is not as much about what the Catholics believe as it is on how we act toward those we disagree with. You and I agree that infant baptism is not biblical, but simply condemning them to hell based on not being baptized as adults is not biblical and lacks the fundementals understanding of God's rightousness and justice.


Job was an upright man, rightous even in God's sight. What do we learn from Job? We learn that God isn't only interested in going through the motions and meeting the requirements. Instead, God is seeking a relationship with his people. God wants us to see him, not just know of him, or talk about him.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Baptism is a response to the gospel. We don't force baptism as some kind of law that needs to be obeyed or we bear the consequences. Instead, baptism is a response made willingly without duress, much like the Eunuch. We call this faith in action because it's belief in motion and fear has no place in the baptismal pool. Nobody should get married out of duress, nor should anyone enter the baptismal waters in duress.


Time and time again Jesus showed great compassion to those living in error. The greatest act of compassion can be seen on the cross where he says, Father forgive them...to those who earlier vowed, Let this be on us and our children. These are the same ones we see in Acts 2.

There is no compromise with sin as it needs to be accounted for, and it has been through the cross. With love, there is always grace and a hope to those who are willing to receive it at the right time. We do not dictate that time, God does and for those who willfully refuse, God does not rejoice over their destruction


Not every Pharasis was bad, so it's wrong to paint them with the same brush. Regardless, what I want to separate are the teachers and the students. Your average Catholic / Lutherine etc is taught infant baptism from sanctioned doctrines supported from the top down without much question. Teachers will be held at a much higher level than students.

Let me circle back to God's rightousness and how it pertains to the centuries of good hearted Catholic parationers who lived their life for God... But more than that, they loved God and lived out their faith in obedience as they knew how in loving God and their neighbor.

I hear you saying that God is Just and his rightousness is on full display by sending every devoted follower of Christ to eternal punishment because of their ignorance or were beguiled by erroneous church teachings on infant baptism on the sole fact that they were taught wrong and did not understand baptism was for believers only.

You have an obvious bias against the church of Christ, therefore the reason I need to compromise but no one else has to compromise.

What God has said about baptism cannot be compromised away. Sure Jesus had compassion for all men (for God so loved the world) be Jesus never compromised the truth. One was either with Him or against Him. The Pharisees were against Him but He did not compromise the truth to make them and their false traditions acceptable.

Compromise is an attack against the Bible rendering the Bible to be a useless book, undermining what it teaches, undermining its authority. What's the point of me having a Bible and spend years reading and studying only to have to compromise with error? In addition to have to throw the Bible, along with logical, critical thinking and reasoning out of the window, I would even have to reject mathematics and act like I don't even know how many one is, Eph 4:4-5.

If Christianity is, as you seem to think it is, just 1000's of groups that have no common origin, no common belief system with most all having MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE type contradictions but somehow all are "magically" right, then I would say Christianity is the most inane, hypocritical, illogical joke man has ever invented for himself. God would not behind some so illogical and hypocritical. I would not waste my time with it but would most likely be agnostic.

Many, if not most, people in this country do not want anything to do with organized religion for the very thing you are espousing. Having been around them and talking to them, their position is this......"who are those Christians telling me I am wrong and going to hell when those hypocrites cannot even agree among themselves as to what is right." Their position is a very valid and LOGICAL one so much so denominationalism cannot respond to it with a Biblical, logical answer without digging the deep hole they are already in even deeper. Denominationalism can prove nothing for it sits atop a pile of confusion and contradiction.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

[


For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10 KJV

• with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;

Again my question is:

Can a person be right with God (righteous) and still be in their sins?


JLB

No.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Amen to that bro!!!

Does 'belief alone' save?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Addendum to my post #287.
On another forum many years ago I had debates with an 'ex church of Christ member'. Even though it was many years ago I will never forget what she had to say about the Bible. To her all the Bible is is an "old relic full of legalistic rules".

1 Sam 8:19-20 "Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us; That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."

Her position was similar to Israel's in that she wanted to be like all the denominations around her, not appear antagonistic or legalistic but have the appearance of being accepting and loving.

 

[JLB]

No.

So we see that by believing in our heart we are made righteous, right with a God.


Case Closed.

 

[Doug Brents]

So we see that by believing in our heart we are made righteous, right with a God.


Case Closed.

I do not agree that by believing in our heart we are made righteous (at that point), but believing in our heart is clearly a requirement for salvation, which precludes infant immersion because the infant has not, and cannot have, yet believed.

 

[stovebolts]

You have an obvious bias against the church of Christ, therefore the reason I need to compromise but no one else has to compromise.

My brother, I have the utmost respect for many of the members within the churches of Christ including yourself. I was a member for about 23 years and my wife has roots that go back many generations which helped shape and develop the church. I know the doctrines as well as you, including the arguments.

In the end when we have our great day with the LORD, we are responsible for our own actions and thoughts, unless we take the role of teacher in which we will be held responsible for what we teach. We both agree that infant baptism is not biblical and we both agree that baptism plays a role in ones salvation. So I don't really understand what you mean by others having to compromise. Those that teach infant baptism for the salvation of their childs soul under the premise that an unbaptized child may suffer the fate of eternal damnation will be held accountable for those teachings along with the pain and suffering they causes.

Again, you and I will find mor agreement on baptism than we will find disagreement. I would like to see the teachings of Baptism restored to it's first century glory where we talk about baptism in the way the first century Church talked about baptism. But it appears that in modern day the focal point of baptism isn't what baptism is, but what it 'does' and as long as we are occupied with "what it does', we'll never talk about it the way the first century church does.s

Ignatius learned at the feet of the Apostle John and this is how he spoke of baptism.

Let your baptism abide with you as your shield; your faith as your helmet; your love as your spear; your patience as your body armour.
Let your works be your deposits, that ye may receive your assets due to you. Be ye therefore long-suffering one with another in gentleness, as God is with you. May I have joy of you always.

Why is it that the first century Church spoke of baptism as a shield, in the same way Paul writes to the Ephesians in chapter 6? Yet we consume our time debating it? What did the Apostles and first century Church know about baptism that we've seemed to have lost? It would seem to me that if we want to restore the Church to the first century teachings, then we should mirror our speech from those who wrote about baptism (The Apostles) and then first century deciples who learned directly from the Apostles themselves.

Now, lets circle back.
You say that Baptism is a line in the sand between who will get to heaven and who will go to hell. I believe that is a very narrow and erroneous view of the function of baptism and we both know this is not a universal teaching within the churches of Christ nor is it universally accepted within the churches of Christ. (John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology Lipscomb University for one).

I would really like to hear your understanding on God's Justice and God's Rightousness and how it pertains to Baptism within a first century setting.

Grace and peace Brother.

 

[Cygnus]

So we see that by believing in our heart we are made righteous, right with a God.


Case Closed.

Thing is....you can't believe in your heart unless God opens it.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

 

[Cygnus]

Why is it that the first century Church spoke of baptism as a shield, in the same way Paul writes to the Ephesians in chapter 6? Yet we consume our time debating it? What did the Apostles and first century Church know about baptism that we've seemed to have lost? It would seem to me that if we want to restore the Church to the first century teachings, then we should mirror our speech from those who wrote about baptism (The Apostles) and then first century deciples who learned directly from the Apostles themselves.

Thing is, if water baptism is a requirement for salvation why isn't there at least one chapter in the Bible describing water baptism? If baptism is a requirement why doesn't John 3:16 mention it? If baptism is a requirement why is there people saved prior to receiving water baptism?

 

[stovebolts]

Addendum to my post #287.
On another forum many years ago I had debates with an 'ex church of Christ member'. Even though it was many years ago I will never forget what she had to say about the Bible. To her all the Bible is is an "old relic full of legalistic rules".

That's sad. But I am sure she had her reasons. There are a handfull of cofc that are extreemly legalistic and void of understanding. Who is my brother is one such teaching that can tear families apart and create division where reconcilliation should have occured.
On the other hand, It is my experience that there are many more churches within the cofc that are spirit filled, outgoing, they would give the shirt off their back to anyone in need, loving, kind , Christ like and I could continue but it's sad that the legalistic cofc's blemish and spot the good name of the cofc. But please, don't think I'm biased. This is true within the Baptist and RCC as well.

If I were to sum up the Bible, it's God's love story to us.

 

[stovebolts]

Thing is, if water baptism is a requirement for salvation why isn't there at least one chapter in the Bible describing water baptism? If baptism is a requirement why doesn't John 3:16 mention it? If baptism is a requirement why is there people saved prior to receiving water baptism?

First, I don't think baptims is a "requirement". Jesus doesn't command anyone to be baptized. What Jesus commands is that his deciples baptize. This puts the requirement on deciples, not new believers. When I read scripture, baptism is a response to the gospel, not as a legal requirement to fulfill God's wrath. It's a picture of dieing with Christ and being raised with Christ. It's about commitment and affirmation where we rejoice that we are one, united with Christ. It is a picture of Christ and his bride, the Church where baptism is a means of entry into the body, the ceremony of the bride.

Concerning a chapter, in Acts 15 we see the council come together. There is a document from the first century that is purported to have came out of that coucil and it is called the Didache. Within it, it says,

But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit}i n living (running) water.
But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.
And let not your fastings be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and the fifth day of the week; but do ye keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation (the sixth) day.

Ignatius, who sat at the feet of the Apostle Paul wrote:
Let your baptism abide with you as your shield; your faith as your helmet; your love as your spear; your patience as your body armour.
Let your works be your deposits, that ye may receive your assets due to you. Be ye therefore long-suffering one with another in gentleness, as God is with you. May I have joy of you always.

 

[Sparkey]

If I were to sum up the Bible, it's God's love story to us.

Close, there is definitely that aspect to the storyline but, and like all things both holy and eternal, He, The Author of Creation, has the final say.

Next time we speak, remember to recall this conversation to and ask privately for the reveal of a sacred secret.

<I am preparing a shout>

Awwww.... Okay, okay... You are correct. We Are indeed to be easily entreated. We'll, here goes.

Of we back our PoV out by one notch another characteristic of our Father is seen. Let us call this new character, 'The Requiremenr(s)' .

We continue to zoom our view backward as the 'camera,' our imagined god-view, pans from the clear view of Infinity, back down, back into time.

We see the subject (God's love for us).
[Director insert ¦ Hollywood style dissolve]

Love indeed flows from Him, Father/Abba/God. It flows toward Earth. It is seen landing once, a great voice is heard:

BEHOLD. THIS IS MY ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

And there we are. We have become the object of the desire of the innermost place in the very center of thr Holy One of Israel.

Father and son agree. All else flows from here. We are invited in, unconditioned. Promise of betrothal and per my cultural view, vows of engagement are spoken.

I will look forward to my new name and that white stone.

 

[Sparkey]

This is a love story, yes.
B/w Father and Son

We are the reward that was set before The Christ, even as we are invited, we are joined into the very purpose of the ONE WITH NO SHADOW OF TURNING.

Somewhere, perhaps metaphorically from the back of the hu# a small voice is heard, "now we're going places..."

Was that your voice? Mine?
It was the voice of the ELOHIM?

TIME itself will tell

 

[JLB]

Thing is....you can't believe in your heart unless God opens it.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us. Acts 16:13-15

The Lord helped her obey, to give heed to what Paul was saying.


We know it is by the Spirit we can obey the Gospel.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

Which is another way of saying the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

This phenomenon is called grace. Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace. The ability God gives to us to enable us to do what we can not do without it. Whether believe, understand, enlighten, or obey. It’s the powerful work of the Spirit, helping us.


Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3




JLB