Infant Immersion

[Cygnus]

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."


It's a benevolent drawing done by the word..... Jer 31:3 "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

The drawing is done by the word appealing to man's intellect, reasoning, emotion.

God draws by His word, men of their own volition "cometh unto Me".

Jesus' invitation.."Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy laden..." With the verb 'come' in the imperative implying mans ability and responsibility in coming to Christ. Some of their own free will would come to Christ (by obeying Acts 2:38) others were not willing to come to Christ, (Mt 23:37).

Is this true for the people living in the middle of the jungle many years ago?

 

[Cygnus]

The word is the only way way God draws men to Him. The events show the word was spoken first to Lydia.

If Lydia were totally depraved she would not worship God, Christ.

The word draws is better translated as dragged. Would you like some biblical examples of the usage of the word?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is this true for the people living in the middle of the jungle many years ago?

Yes. Then and now.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The word draws is better translated as dragged. Would you like some biblical examples of the usage of the word?

Not in Jn 6:44-45. The drawing is done by the word and that drawing can be resisted as seen in Acts 7:54-58 how they rejected the word of God preached by Stephen.

The verb 'draw in Jn 6:44 is active voice meaning God is doing the drawing through His word. It is subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood "Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." (Strong's)
The subjunctive mood describes an action (drawing) that may or may not happen.

Drag - Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament - StudyLight.org

Drag in the Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

(my emp)

Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament

syro (Strong's #4951) Drag

helkyo (Strong's #1670) Draw

The difference between syro and helkyo is theologically important and is best expressed in English by translating syrein as "to drag" and helkyein as "to draw." The notion of force is always present in syrein. Thus Plutarch spoke of the headlong course of a river "as dragging [syron] and carrying along everything." Consequently, where persons and not things are in question, syrein involves the notion of violence. Although the notion of force or violence may be present in helkyein, it is not necessarily so, any more than the English draw, when used to refer to mental and moral attraction, necessarily implies the use of force.

Only by keeping these differences in mind can we correct the erroneous interpretation of two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of John. The first is John 12:32 : "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [pantas helkyso] to myself." But how does a crucified and exalted Savior draw all people to himself? Certainly not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him [helkyse auton]. "Those who deny theories of "irresistible grace" that portray men as machines that are dragged to God must assert that helkyse refers only to the drawing power of love, to the Father's attracting men to the Son. Had syrein been used in either of these Johannine texts, then those who believe that "irresistible grace" means forcing someone to believe against his or her will might argue that Jesus' declarations leave no room for any other interpretation than theirs. But syrein was not used in these passages.

More specifically, helkyein predominantly refers to drawing someone or something to a certain point; syrein refers to dragging something after oneself. Thus Lucian, in comparing a man to a fish that has been hooked and dragged through the water, described him as "being dragged [syromenon] and led by necessity." Frequently, syrein refers to something that is dragged or trailed on the ground, quite apart from its own will, such as a dead body. To confirm this, compare John 21:6; John 21:11 with John 21:8 of the same chapter. In John 21:6 and John 21:11, helkyein refers to drawing the net full of fish to a certain point on the ship and to drawing the net to the land. But in John 21:8, where the disciples drag the net full of fish behind them through the water, syrein, not helkyein, is used. The Authorized Version maintains this distinction, as does De Wette's German translation. Neither the Vulgate nor Beza, however, distinguish the two words, which they translate by traho (draw).

 

[Cygnus]

Not in Jn 6:44-45. The drawing is done by the word and that drawing can be resisted as seen in Acts 7:54-58 how they rejected the word of God preached by Stephen.

The verb 'draw in Jn 6:44 is active voice meaning God is doing the drawing through His word. It is subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood "Is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." (Strong's)
The subjunctive mood describes an action (drawing) that may or may not happen.

Drag - Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament - StudyLight.org

Drag in the Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament on StudyLight.org

www.studylight.org

(my emp)

Trench's Synonyms of the New Testament

syro (Strong's #4951) Drag

helkyo (Strong's #1670) Draw

The difference between syro and helkyo is theologically important and is best expressed in English by translating syrein as "to drag" and helkyein as "to draw." The notion of force is always present in syrein. Thus Plutarch spoke of the headlong course of a river "as dragging [syron] and carrying along everything." Consequently, where persons and not things are in question, syrein involves the notion of violence. Although the notion of force or violence may be present in helkyein, it is not necessarily so, any more than the English draw, when used to refer to mental and moral attraction, necessarily implies the use of force.

Only by keeping these differences in mind can we correct the erroneous interpretation of two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of John. The first is John 12:32 : "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [pantas helkyso] to myself." But how does a crucified and exalted Savior draw all people to himself? Certainly not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him [helkyse auton]. "Those who deny theories of "irresistible grace" that portray men as machines that are dragged to God must assert that helkyse refers only to the drawing power of love, to the Father's attracting men to the Son. Had syrein been used in either of these Johannine texts, then those who believe that "irresistible grace" means forcing someone to believe against his or her will might argue that Jesus' declarations leave no room for any other interpretation than theirs. But syrein was not used in these passages.

More specifically, helkyein predominantly refers to drawing someone or something to a certain point; syrein refers to dragging something after oneself. Thus Lucian, in comparing a man to a fish that has been hooked and dragged through the water, described him as "being dragged [syromenon] and led by necessity." Frequently, syrein refers to something that is dragged or trailed on the ground, quite apart from its own will, such as a dead body. To confirm this, compare John 21:6; John 21:11 with John 21:8 of the same chapter. In John 21:6 and John 21:11, helkyein refers to drawing the net full of fish to a certain point on the ship and to drawing the net to the land. But in John 21:8, where the disciples drag the net full of fish behind them through the water, syrein, not helkyein, is used. The Authorized Version maintains this distinction, as does De Wette's German translation. Neither the Vulgate nor Beza, however, distinguish the two words, which they translate by traho (draw).

The idea of drawing is not wooing....you don't persuade the fish too jump into your boat....you grab the net and drag them in.

The same word is used in Acts 16:19 and translated as dragged....But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

The Bible says no man seeks God...Romans 3:11. If no one seeks God how does one get saved?

Some see salvation as similar to this scenario.....(1) A man is in the water drowning. If he goes under one more time he'll die...then a life preserver is thrown to him and all he has to do is grab it and get saved.

In reality it's more like this...(2) The man has already drowned and laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead.
God has to jump in and drag the guy from the bottom of the lake, return him to the shore and save him.

You seemed to have presented "irresistible grace" as meaning to force someone to believe against his or her will...
I've never bought into that argument. You forget people are dead in their sins and trespasses. Eph 2 speaks of that. It's one of the reasons no one seeks God..because they can't.

God has to act....God as to regenerate you, quicken you, make you born again....choose your term. Your heart of stone is changed...the result, you freely choose Christ. You are not forced to believe in Christ. You are not a robot.

The problem with scenario (1) free-will salvation is what is the decision to choose Christ as your Lord and Savior based upon? That's where you lose the argument....as the answer is the happenstance of life. You choice depends upon who your parents are, where you went to school, the people you met...believed and didn't believe, perhaps your IQ and so on.

You don't choose Christ...Christ chooses you. If you've been chosen the choice was made before time began and the earth was made.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes. Then and now.

The people living in the middle of the jungle many years ago never even heard of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The people living in the middle of the jungle many years ago never even heard of Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The idea of drawing is not wooing....you don't persuade the fish too jump into your boat....you grab the net and drag them in.

The same word is used in Acts 16:19 and translated as dragged....But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

The Bible says no man seeks God...Romans 3:11. If no one seeks God how does one get saved?

Some see salvation as similar to this scenario.....(1) A man is in the water drowning. If he goes under one more time he'll die...then a life preserver is thrown to him and all he has to do is grab it and get saved.

In reality it's more like this...(2) The man has already drowned and laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead.
God has to jump in and drag the guy from the bottom of the lake, return him to the shore and save him.

You seemed to have presented "irresistible grace" as meaning to force someone to believe against his or her will...
I've never bought into that argument. You forget people are dead in their sins and trespasses. Eph 2 speaks of that. It's one of the reasons no one seeks God..because they can't.

God has to act....God as to regenerate you, quicken you, make you born again....choose your term. Your heart of stone is changed...the result, you freely choose Christ. You are not forced to believe in Christ. You are not a robot.

The problem with scenario (1) free-will salvation is what is the decision to choose Christ as your Lord and Savior based upon? That's where you lose the argument....as the answer is the happenstance of life. You choice depends upon who your parents are, where you went to school, the people you met...believed and didn't believe, perhaps your IQ and so on.

You don't choose Christ...Christ chooses you. If you've been chosen the choice was made before time began and the earth was made.

The Greek word helko (draw) does not only mean to drag irresistibly. It also carries the meaning of a benevolent pulling by use of reasoning and emotion as I've already shown.

Facts given in Jn 6:44-45;
--the drawing is done by God's word when men are "taught" "heard" and "learn" then men choose to "cometh to Christ" by their own free will. Not dragged to Christ against their will.
--the word's drawing power can be resisted as seen in Acts 7 where Stephens' preaching was rejected.
--the verb 'draw' is subjunctive mood meaning it may not happen.

======================

Men do seek after God-- Deut. 4.29; 12.5; 1 Chron. 16.10, 1 Chron 22.19; Ezra 7:10; Psa 24.6; 27.8; 69.32; Acts 15.17; Acts 17.27; etc. Isa 55:6 men have been commanded to seek the Lord with the command implying both ability and responsibility to seek God.

=====================

God does not choose for men which ones will be saved and which ones will not be saved for such makes God culpable for the lost. God's role in man's salvation is God has provided a pathway to salvation thru Christ. Man's role is to choose to take that path by obeying Christ Heb 5:9.

Matt 23:32:
-if those Jews were predetermined by God to be lost, then why did Jesus "would" they be saved?
-if they were predetermined to by God to be saved, then why did they reject Christ/salvation?

If the rich young ruler was predetermined to be lost, then why did Jesus offer him salvation?
If he was predetermined to be saved, then why did he reject Christ/salvation?
Why was he not totally depraved for he was able to know and keep God's law?
If he was predetermined to be lost, then why did Christ 'love" him when God supposedly "hates" those that have not been chosen to be saved as Esau?

If God solely determined for all men which will be saved and which lost, then why is it God has no pleasure in those wicked men that are lost (Eze 33:11)? God brings displeasure to Himself by His own choices/actions????


====================



Being physically dead is not the same as being spiritually dead. While those physically dead cannot do anything the spiritual dead can. In Acts 2 those who Peter preached to were lost, spiritually dead yet while spiritually dead were willing to hear Peter, understand what was preached, be pricked in the heart by what was preached, ask what to do to be saved and obey by repenting and being baptized.

 

[Cygnus]

2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

They were not chosen.

The Greek word helko (draw) does not only mean to drag irresistibly. It also carries the meaning of a benevolent pulling by use of reasoning and emotion as I've already shown.

Facts given in Jn 6:44-45;
--the drawing is done by God's word when men are "taught" "heard" and "learn" then men choose to "cometh to Christ" by their own free will. Not dragged to Christ against their will.
--the word's drawing power can be resisted as seen in Acts 7 where Stephens' preaching was rejected.
--the verb 'draw' is subjunctive mood meaning it may not happen.

======================

Men do seek after God-- Deut. 4.29; 12.5; 1 Chron. 16.10, 1 Chron 22.19; Ezra 7:10; Psa 24.6; 27.8; 69.32; Acts 15.17; Acts 17.27; etc. Isa 55:6 men have been commanded to seek the Lord with the command implying both ability and responsibility to seek God.

=====================

God does not choose for men which ones will be saved and which ones will not be saved for such makes God culpable for the lost. God's role in man's salvation is God has provided a pathway to salvation thru Christ. Man's role is to choose to take that path by obeying Christ Heb 5:9.

Matt 23:32:
-if those Jews were predetermined by God to be lost, then why did Jesus "would" they be saved?
-if they were predetermined to by God to be saved, then why did they reject Christ/salvation?

If the rich young ruler was predetermined to be lost, then why did Jesus offer him salvation?
If he was predetermined to be saved, then why did he reject Christ/salvation?
Why was he not totally depraved for he was able to know and keep God's law?
If he was predetermined to be lost, then why did Christ 'love" him when God supposedly "hates" those that have not been chosen to be saved as Esau?

If God solely determined for all men which will be saved and which lost, then why is it God has no pleasure in those wicked men that are lost (Eze 33:11)? God brings displeasure to Himself by His own choices/actions????


====================



Being physically dead is not the same as being spiritually dead. While those physically dead cannot do anything the spiritual dead can. In Acts 2 those who Peter preached to were lost, spiritually dead yet while spiritually dead were willing to hear Peter, understand what was preached, be pricked in the heart by what was preached, ask what to do to be saved and obey by repenting and being baptized.

how do you solve the contradiction?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

They were not chosen.

God does not choose for men which ones will be lost or saved.

how do you solve the contradiction?

There is no contradiction.

 

[Doug Brents]

God does not choose for men which ones will be lost or saved.

God knows who will choose Him, but He does not force anyone to choose Him. It is up to man's choice to love Him. He only wants those who truly love Him with Him in Heaven. He doesn't want those who have been coerced, bribed, or forced to obey Him. Only those who obey out of true love.

 

[Cygnus]

God does not choose for men which ones will be lost or saved.


There is no contradiction.

All men are lost. From the lost God chooses whom He will grant the ability to come to Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

God knows who will choose Him, but He does not force anyone to choose Him. It is up to man's choice to love Him. He only wants those who truly love Him with Him in Heaven. He doesn't want those who have been coerced, bribed, or forced to obey Him. Only those who obey out of true love.

God knows nobody would choose Him..unless He does something to that person.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All men are lost. From the lost God chooses whom He will grant the ability to come to Christ.

No Bible verse supports this idea. The Bible teaches predestination but NOT the Calvinistic idea of predestination. The Bible shows God predestined a group (called Christian) and those men that choose to obey Christ become part of this foreknown, predestined group.

 

[Cygnus]

No Bible verse supports this idea. The Bible teaches predestination but NOT the Calvinistic idea of predestination. The Bible shows God predestined a group (called Christian) and those men that choose to obey Christ become part of this foreknown, predestined group.

Why does a person choose to obey yet another not?

I've asked that question many times and have never really received an adequate answer. So let me give you a whirl at answering the question...Why does a person choose to obey yet another not?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why does a person choose to obey yet another not?

Men have been given free will by God to use.

I've asked that question many times and have never really received an adequate answer. So let me give you a whirl at answering the question...Why does a person choose to obey yet another not?

Those in Acts 2 chose to believe what they heard while those in Acts 7 chose not to believe.

It is God's preceptive will that shows God desires men use their free will to choose to obey (Jesus would) but men can choose to not obey (Jews would not) - Mt 23:37. (also 2 Pet 3:9)

 

[Doug Brents]

God knows nobody would choose Him..unless He does something to that person.

Which He did: He send His Son to die for our sins. The Gospel is the Good News of that event, and it is through hearing of that event that we find belief, which leads to faith, which is the conduit through which salvation is bestowed upon us. The key event there is the believing. If we don't believe, there is no value in Jesus' death for us. But if we do believe, then we will obey, and if we obey, He gives us salvation.

 

[Cygnus]

Men have been given free will by God to use.



Those in Acts 2 chose to believe what they heard while those in Acts 7 chose not to believe.

It is God's preceptive will that shows God desires men use their free will to choose to obey (Jesus would) but men can choose to not obey (Jews would not) - Mt 23:37. (also 2 Pet 3:9)

....37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart......why were they cut to the heart? I would suggest something similar happened to them that happened to Lydia in Acts 16 when the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things being spoken by Paul.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance........we know God is speaking to a specific group of people in this instance because we know not all people will be saved and many will perish.

 

[Cygnus]

Which He did: He send His Son to die for our sins. The Gospel is the Good News of that event, and it is through hearing of that event that we find belief, which leads to faith, which is the conduit through which salvation is bestowed upon us. The key event there is the believing. If we don't believe, there is no value in Jesus' death for us. But if we do believe, then we will obey, and if we obey, He gives us salvation.

Belief is a gift from God. Not all receive tht gift and are saved. Many act as if they've figured it all out on their own and now believe the Father sent the Son to die for our sins.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why does a person choose to obey yet another not?

That is a very good question. And there are many possible answers. Some choose to believe that there is no God, no creator, who made the entire world because they don't want to believe that they owe anyone or anything their love and devotion. They want to make themselves "gods" in their own life.

Others have traumatic events in their life, and choose to blame God. "How could a loving God let "this, that, or the other thing" happen to His children?" etc.

There are other surface reasons, but they all boil down to Satan. Satan is real, alive, and in the world; and he seeks to turn the hearts of God's loved creation away from Him. Satan seeks to bring our love and devotion over to himself so that he can "rub God's nose in it" that God's children love Satan more than they love God. And he is very good at what he does. He is very good at telling just enough truth in his lies that they are believable. He is the wisest, most beautiful, and most powerful of all of God's creations; so great that he thought he should be One with God.

That is why some believe and some don't. Some (most) fall to Satan's lies, and some few choose to submit themselves to God's will.