Infant Immersion

[Cygnus]

One cannot cherry pick one verse as Jn 3:16 and then wrongly claim "belief only" saved while purposefully ignoring other verses that require repentance, confession and baptism.

Actually you can't even come to Christ unless the Father grants it.

 

[Cygnus]

Certainly. When I began this study for myself, years ago, I began by searching out every place in Scripture that talks about salvation, or anything that is related to salvation: ie. forgiveness of sin, sanctification, justification, etc.

Then I looked at the context to see if it was talking about saving physically, or saving spiritually. I ignored the ones dealing with physical salvation, and of the spiritual salvation passages, I looked at what Scripture said leads to that salvation.

After listing them all, I grouped them into similar categories. In the end I grouped them down to four categories:
Belief
Repentance from sin
Confession of Jesus' as Lord
Immersion into water

All of these are listed in Scripture as leading to Salvation:
Believe - John 3:16, Rom 10:10, Mark 16:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Repentance - Acts 3:19 - "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,..."
Confession - Rom 10:10 - "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Immersion - Mark 16:16 - "He who believes and is baptized [immersed] will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
There are many more passages for each of these, these are just some examples.

Now, when there are multiple things in Scripture that say the same result comes from doing different things, we have choices in how we interpret those things. We can either:
1. Choose a doctrine that says, follow one of them and ignore all the others.
2. Say that each person can choose which one he/she wants to follow, and everyone is ok doing the one he/she thinks is right.
3. Combine all of them into one cohesive, all encompassing, doctrine.

The only one of these that is Biblically correct is #3. All must be merged. That being the case, leaving any of them out leaves you short of salvation.

If you believe but do nothing else, your faith is dead and worthless.
If you confess that Jesus is Lord but don't believe it, you lie.
If you believe and confess but don't repent, you don't remain lost because you remain living in sin.
If you are immersed but don't believe, you just get wet.
If you believe but are not immersed, you have not connected with the cleansing of the Spirit who takes action when we are buried with Christ (Rom 6:1-6, Col 2:11-14).

What really happens? God regenerates you. Makes you alive in Christ....born again., Quickens you...choose your term.
At the same moment you are given the gift of grace and faith and believe...as well as confess. You also repent.

Baptism comes later as a symbol of the association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Doug Brents]

What really happens? God regenerates you. Makes you alive in Christ....born again., Quickens you...choose your term.
At the same moment you are given the gift of grace and faith and believe...as well as confess. You also repent.

Baptism comes later as a symbol of the association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

Ummmmmm, no.

Look again at Col 2:11-12 - "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Sins are cut away by the Spirit when we are buried with Jesus in baptism (immersion) during which also we are raised with Jesus to new life.

If sins were forgiven and washed away when we believed BEFORE we were baptized, then they wouldn't still be on us when we went into the water to be washed away by the Spirit DURING baptism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually you can't even come to Christ unless the Father grants it.

God has granted man free will. Those who use that free will in obeying Christ (Heb 5:9) are the ones who come to Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

Ummmmmm, no.

Look again at Col 2:11-12 - "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Sins are cut away by the Spirit when we are buried with Jesus in baptism (immersion) during which also we are raised with Jesus to new life.

If sins were forgiven and washed away when we believed BEFORE we were baptized, then they wouldn't still be on us when we went into the water to be washed away by the Spirit DURING baptism.

Ummmmmm, no.

1 John 1:7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Not the waters of baptism

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Pretty much nonsense.

Just imagine the poor man who believes in Jesus for salvation...then on his way to the baptismal pool he slips on a wet step...falls...bumps his head and dies. Wow, so close yet so far.

It is logical, proper exegesis to examine all verses that deal with a particular subject in order to arrive at a logical reasonable conclusion. To claim one verse (out of dozens and dozens) exhausts all there is to know about salvation fits the category of 'nonsense', illogical.
An atheist is on a plane that is about to crash into the ground at 600 mph. In his last moments he begins to think God does exist and there is an afterlife but dies in the crash not knowing who or what to believe. If he only had a little more time he would have come to know about Christ and His teachings.

If your "circumstance" can get one saved without the necessity of baptism, my circumstance can get one saved without the necessity of believing and Jn 3:16 does not matter either. We can replace what the Bible says and start following made up circumstances.

 

[Cygnus]

God has granted man free will. Those who use that free will in obeying Christ (Heb 5:9) are the ones who come to Christ.

As God regenerates you..you freely come to Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

It is logical, proper exegesis to examine all verses that deal with a particular subject in order to arrive at a logical reasonable conclusion. To claim one verse exhausts all there is to know about salvation fits the category of 'nonsense', illogical.
An atheist is on a plane that is about to crash into the ground a 600 mph. In his last moments he begins to think God does exist and there is an afterlife but dies in the crash not knowing who or what to believe. If he only had a little more time he would have come to know about Christ and His teachings.

If your "circumstance" can get one saved without the necessity of baptism, my circumstance can get one saved without the necessity of believing and Jn 3:16 does not matter either. We can replace what the Bible says and start following made up circumstances.

You can't believe unless God gives you the ability to believe. Faith is a gift. One who is dead in their sins and trespasses can't choose Jesus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In post 317 you wrote:

I watched my Father in law struggle with his eternal fate the last two weeks of his life because of this line of thinking.

How do you know that your not in a state of ignorance? And if I can add, this is starting to sound similar to the thoughts and ideas of the early gnostics where salvation was more about knowledge. It is this line of thinking that I believe Matthew writes about as Jesus summerizes his thoughts at the tail end of chapter 7. You see, it's not about having the right answers, it's about having the right relationships because if our relationship with God is right, then our lives will give credence to the words we say.

Why does the Bible say of itself that it can be known (Jn 17:17) and understood (Eph 3:4; Eph 5:17) if it cannot possibly be known, understood?
Is your argument that I cannot read a newspaper or magazine article, a book, a novel, assembly instructions, etc and not understand anything that I read? Nothing can be correctly understood?

One can understand the Bible with a 'Catholic interpreter'. Even a simple person as I can use simple logic and reason and understand it (Psa 119:130). Not only can the Bible be understood it can be understood alike by all. How is it the mathematical truth 1+1=2 can be understood by all but not the truth of the Bible?

If one did not understand the basics of math and science one is going to have a hard life facing bad, harsh immediate consequences everyday, hence people learn these basics. Yet since God does not immediately punish those in error (Eccl 8:11) those in error will continue in that error. If God did immediately punish those in error, then all the different, contradicting beliefs would vanish away and all left alive would understand God's work alike.

Was it impossible for Noah to understand God's instructions and build the ark to God's specs? No. Did he lose sleep over whether or not the ark was built correctly? No. Why? He used logic and reason to follow what God said so he KNEW he built it correctly. 2 Tim 4, I do not see Paul near the end of his life worrying over whether he understood God's word correctly. Why no worry? John says we can "know" 1 Jn 2:3,5; 1 Jn 3:18-19.


There cannot be a right relationship with God by being in doctrinal error.

The way I understand salvation, is sathrough faith...faith in action. What does James say? I'll show you my faith by what I do. What we do produces fruit or it remains stubble which will be burnt. We all have stubble that will be burnt because to a degree, none of us are perfect. Instead, we are being perfected.


Not at all. They are destructive in many ways and are pushed on parishioners as a mechanism for control and church authority. I view them equally to the doctrine some in the churches of Christ adhere to, such as using Baptism to divide the brotherhood instead of uniting it.



Please explain, I don't think I'm following you.

If water baptism is not the separating line between the saved and the lost, then what is that line? Who has determined that line? Mr Hicks draw that line himself?

Doctrinal error on water baptism, infant baptism, original sin, OSAS, musical instruments, social drinking, etc etc is going to cause division. Compromising with error only makes it worse. It is those that deny the necessity of water baptism that are creating the problems causing division in willing to compromise the truth rather than stand by the truth. They are more concerned about being like the denominations around them, and be seen as loving and accepting to the point of embracing error...go along (with error) to get along.

If Christianity cannot be known with certainty and contradictions rule the day with logic, reason and mathematics thrown out the door, then I am at a loss as to why anyone wastes their time with it. I certainly would not.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As God regenerates you..you freely come to Christ.

God does not have to first miraculously act upon man in order to enable man to come to Christ independently from the word and man's obedience to that word. Instead God draws man by His word when men have been "taught" "heard" and "learn" then man of his own free will "cometh to Christ" Jn 6:44-45.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You can't believe unless God gives you the ability to believe. Faith is a gift. One who is dead in their sins and trespasses can't choose Jesus.

Faith is not a gift in the sense one can only have faith if God gives it to him. Faith is a gift in the sense that God has allowed man to have faith and be saved by that faith.

Those in Acts 2 Peter preached to were dead in their sins but even while dead in their sins were willing and able to listen to Peter, able to understand what he preached, able to be pricked in their heart by what he preached and willing and able to obey what he preached while again dead in their sins.

 

[Cygnus]

God does not have to first miraculously act upon man in order to enable man to come to Christ independently from the word and man's obedience to that word. Instead God draws man by His word when men have been "taught" "heard" and "learn" then man of his own free will "cometh to Christ" Jn 6:44-45.

You just contradicted yourself....

"God does not have to first miraculously act upon man"...."Instead God draws man"...is Gods drawing not a miraculous act?

You don't choose Christ. Christ chooses you.

 

[Cygnus]

Faith is not a gift in the sense one can only have faith if God gives it to him. Faith is a gift in the sense that God has allowed man to have faith and be saved by that faith.

Those in Acts 2 Peter preached to were dead in their sins but even while dead in their sins were willing and able to listen to Peter, able to understand what he preached, able to be pricked in their heart by what he preached and willing and able to obey what he preached while again dead in their sins.

Like Lydia, they were pricked in their hearts because God opened their hearts.

Acts 16:14. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ummmmmm, no.

1 John 1:7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. Not the waters of baptism

That passage is referring to those who have already been saved. It is not applicable to those who are not already "in Christ."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Like Lydia, they were pricked in their hearts because God opened their hearts.

Acts 16:14. One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

The Lord opens people's heart by His word being read/taught....
Acts 16
"And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

The gospel being taught with people hearing it and believing fits God's plan that the gospel be preached 1 Cor 1:21. Those in Acts 2 heard the gospel preached and were pricked in their hearts by that word..... "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:36), the response to God's word being preached: “Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethern, what shall we do?"

Also, Lydia was not a totally depraved person...."And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God.." Therefore she did not have to be miraculously 'regenerated' in the Calvinistic sense to enable her to be receptive to God and His word. So the opening of Lydia's heart was not something mysterious, miraculous, irresistible, capricious nor done apart from the word being preached. (God's word being taught in Acts 7 by Stephen was resisted.)

Rom 10:17 faith come by hearing the word of God, hence Lydia developed faith/belief in her heart (Rom 10:10) upon hearing the word. Faith was not unconditionally, capriciously given to her by God apart from the word be taught and heard.


Lastly, "And when she was baptized, and her household," ...Lydia attended unto the things spoken to her by Paul (Acts 16:14) meaning water baptism is part of God's word spoken to her. She did not have faith only but obediently acted upon her faith in submitting to baptism.

Did the Lord open Lydia's heart? Yes. Miraculously, capriciously apart from the word being taught and heard? No. The Lord opened her heart by sending Paul to Macedonia (Acts 16:9-10) to "preach the gospel unto them".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You just contradicted yourself....

"God does not have to first miraculously act upon man"...."Instead God draws man"...is Gods drawing not a miraculous act?

You don't choose Christ. Christ chooses you.

I pointed out the drawing is done by the word when men have been 'taught' 'heard' and 'learn' Jn 6:44-45. Drawing is not miraculously, capriciously done apart from the word being taught.

 

[Cygnus]

The Lord opens people's heart by His word being read/taught....
Acts 16
"And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

The gospel being taught with people hearing it and believing fits God's plan that the gospel be preached 1 Cor 1:21. Those in Acts 2 heard the gospel preached and were pricked in their hearts by that word..... "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” (Acts 2:36), the response to God's word being preached: “Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethern, what shall we do?"

Also, Lydia was not a totally depraved person...."And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God.." Therefore she did not have to be miraculously 'regenerated' in the Calvinistic sense to enable her to be receptive to God and His word. So the opening of Lydia's heart was not something mysterious, miraculous, irresistible, capricious nor done apart from the word being preached. (God's word being taught in Acts 7 by Stephen was resisted.)

Rom 10:17 faith come by hearing the word of God, hence Lydia developed faith/belief in her heart (Rom 10:10) upon hearing the word. Faith was not unconditionally, capriciously given to her by God apart from the word be taught and heard.


Lastly, "And when she was baptized, and her household," ...Lydia attended unto the things spoken to her by Paul (Acts 16:14) meaning water baptism is part of God's word spoken to her. She did not have faith only but obediently acted upon her faith in submitting to baptism.

Did the Lord open Lydia's heart? Yes. Miraculously, capriciously apart from the word being taught and heard? No. The Lord opened her heart by sending Paul to Macedonia (Acts 16:9-10) to "preach the gospel unto them".

Hearing the gospel is but one way God brings about regeneration.

Lydia may have been worshipping God....but not Christ. The Lord opened her heart and she then understood Jesus.

 

[Cygnus]

I pointed out the drawing is done by the word when men have been 'taught' 'heard' and 'learn' Jn 6:44-45. Drawing is not miraculously, capriciously done apart from the word being taught.

The word "drawing" in John 6:44-45 doesn't mean wooing. Here kitty, kitty style.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The word "drawing" in John 6:44-45 doesn't mean wooing. Here kitty, kitty style.

Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."


It's a benevolent drawing done by the word..... Jer 31:3 "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

The drawing is done by the word appealing to man's intellect, reasoning, emotion.

God draws by His word, men of their own volition "cometh unto Me".

Jesus' invitation.."Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy laden..." With the verb 'come' in the imperative implying mans ability and responsibility in coming to Christ. Some of their own free will would come to Christ (by obeying Acts 2:38) others were not willing to come to Christ, (Mt 23:37).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hearing the gospel is but one way God brings about regeneration.

Lydia may have been worshipping God....but not Christ. The Lord opened her heart and she then understood Jesus.

The word is the only way way God draws men to Him. The events show the word was spoken first to Lydia.

If Lydia were totally depraved she would not worship God, Christ.