What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest Come and celebrate the birth of Christ by having some ho, ho, ho, holiday fun at the second annual it's the most wonderful time of the year Christmas celebration. Enter Here
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

The soul of man

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Use your knowledge of koine Greek and tell me how many groups are mentioned in the very next verse from the one you mention, v22.
We're not discussing the very next verse.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
The first man brought death. (To all mankind)
The man, Jesus Christ brought resurrection from the dead. (To all mankind)
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, (All mankind dies)
even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (All mankind will be made alive)
"In Adam" and "in Christ" are parallel structures having the same meaning for the word "all."

In your desire to insert your unbiblical notion into the scripture, you attempt to change the meaning of the word "all" in the middle of the sentence. That doesn't "prove" your position; it makes babble out of scripture.

1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: (There is an order to the resurrection)
Christ the firstfruits, (Christ is the first to be resurrected never to die again.)
afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (That's the believers at the "rapture.")
1Co 15:24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (That's when all the rest of the dead are raised for the judgment.)

Mat 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Those who are righteous will go immortal into everlasting life.
Those who are condemned will go immortal into everlasting punishment. (If they were still mortal and perishable then the fires of hell would consume them and the punishment would not be "everlasting."
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,598
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
So what are you saying now Oz, that before the finished work of Christ the souls who died were in fact mortal?
I have never ever said that. There is only ONE who had no beginning and no end, God alone. However, what does 2 Tim 1:8-10 (ESV) teach?

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

'Has brought life and immortality to light' is literally 'has brought life and incorruptibility to light'. Paul is addressing Timothy who was experiencing suffering for his faith. He needed to be reminded of the eschatological future. This incorruptibility that Paul addresses is what is already available to the believer. There is a new dimension, thanks to the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was 'bringing (aorist tense) to life and incorruption'. The aorist indicates in one act, point action.

So there is every reason for Timothy to be steadfast in the midst of suffering because of the incorruptible hope that is already his. Gordon Fee's comment on these verses is: 'So his word to Timothy is plain: "Be steadfast; rekindle your gift; take your part in the suffering; for we are already among those who have overcome death through Christ’” (1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, p. 230).

You know I'm not saying that in the OT covenant that human beings were mortal. Eccl 12:7 (ESV) refutes that idea, as I've discussed several times in this thread.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,598
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
What Ecclesiastes 9:5 actually says is, "the dead know nothing” period. It does not say "the dead know nothing here on earth” to corrupt the original meaning is unwise.
This is what happens when you pluck one verse out of its context. This proof-texting proves that your interpretation cannot be accepted in this context:

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and for ever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun (Eccl. 9:5-6 ESV).​

If you took v. 5 alone you could come to an absolute denial of any future: 'The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward'.

However, v. 6 tells us that that is not the correct interpretation. The Teacher of Ecclesiastes tells us that the Teacher is referring to the relation of those who have died and how they relate to this world, an example being 'their love and their hate and their envy have already perished'.

We know that this is the case because of the limitation placed on human beings by Ecccl 9:3 (ESV) when it is referred to as 'all that is done under the sun'. That limitation is still in effect in Eccl 9:5-6 (ESV).

You ask:
Where in Ecclesiastes does it say 'the spirit returns to God who gave it' and all spirits, saved and unsaved, remain alive and conscious, even forever? You are imposing your agenda.
There you have another logical fallacy, an argument from silence. The Scripture states that 'the dust returns to the earth as it was and the spirit returns to God who gave it' (Eccl 12:7 ESV). It doesn't included all of the extra paraphernalia that you want to add. Argument from silence is erroneous reasoning and we can't have a reasonable conversation when you use this approach.

Oz
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
The first man brought death. (To all mankind)
The man, Jesus Christ brought resurrection from the dead. (To all mankind)
I know.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, (All mankind dies)
even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (All mankind will be made alive)
"In Adam" and "in Christ" are parallel structures having the same meaning for the word "all."
I know that too. I agree. I never said otherwise.
In your desire to insert your unbiblical notion into the scripture, you attempt to change the meaning of the word "all" in the middle of the sentence. That doesn't "prove" your position; it makes babble out of scripture.
I have no idea why you claim my 'notion' is unbiblical. Nor do you provide any evidence that it is unbiblical. In fact, I share the same 'notion' of these verses as you. All mankind (both the lost and the saved) WILL be made alive at their respective resurections. Which is/was my point about this passage. Also v23-24, in the Greek grammar, are literally one sentence listing three respective resurrections. One of which has already occurred (Christ's).
1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: (There is an order to the resurrection)
That is once again, correct. Which is why I believe it.
Christ the firstfruits, (Christ is the first to be resurrected never to die again.)
Christ was the first to be resurrected. But other than that, we agree.
afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. (That's the believers at the "rapture.")
Once again, that's correct. We read more detail about this resurrection in Paul's other letter.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (LEB) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [past tense], thus also God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always.

Notice, that this resurrection/rapture leaves those who have died without Christ, still yet to be ressurected.

1Co 15:24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (That's when all the rest of the dead are raised for the judgment.)
I know. I agree. That's when the lost are raised. What's unbiblical, is to think that the lost are raised in glory, in honor, in Christ, etc. along with those who are saved.

And what does Jesus also say about the fear of God? We should fear God who can destroy both the body and soul in Hell.
Mat 25:46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Those who are righteous will go immortal into everlasting life.
Once again, correct.
Those who are condemned will go immortal into everlasting punishment.
What passage leads you to your 'notion' that the lost are raised immortal or that they go immortal into everlasting punishment (i.e. Hell)? Is your 'notion' Biblical or not??? That's the question.

Given the Biblical fact that God can destroy the lost's body and soul in Hell (Matt 10:28) exactly what Scripture leads you think that the lost are raised immortal?
If they were still mortal and perishable then the fires of hell would consume them
God is a comsuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29 (LEB) For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
and the punishment would not be "everlasting."
If God destroys the resurrected bodies and souls of the lost in Hell, totally consuming them, that IS everlasting punishment!
 

dianegcook

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
1,763
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
1 Cor 15:53 does NOT say the mortal "liable to die soul" must put on immortality.
Do you profess that the body is the soul?
Liable to die soul has nothing to do with flesh. The flesh dies, period...it can not enter heaven..
When the flesh dies, we have the spiritual ,soul..
Immortality, is a soul that lives forever., thus mortal, is a liable to die soul....we know 100% that flesh dies, all are liable to die in the flesh of course..thus mortal is about the soul.
As I stated in Strong's #2349, meaning, liable to die...
The spirit is the intellect of the soul..
When one dies, their soul goes to one side of the gulf or other..
The rich man is tormented , burning from inside, knowing that he messed up and facing the White Throne Judgment, where he can be thrown into the lake of fire.
And as I stated before, in Rev.14:11, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever..
Psa.37:20, the wicked shall perish, they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away...
Consume in that verse is , to cease, be finished, to end, destroy utterly, riddance, waste.
Strong's#3615, Heb..

And I still stand by John 3:16
Shall not perish, but have everlasting life, to whom that believe.
Perish,#622, to destroy fully, die...

We will just have to agree to disagree, I'm not planning to perish anyway.

Love in Christ
 

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
The spirit is the intellect of the soul..
Scriptural citation please. What evidence from scripture do you have to support your opinion of what the soul is?
And as I stated before, in Rev.14:11, and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever..
Psa.37:20, the wicked shall perish, they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away...
Those two verses are not talking about the same thing.
Psalm 37:20 is not talking about the eternal punishment of the wicked but, rather the TEMPORAL results of their wickedness. It's reference is the Law of Moses which has no content whatsoever concerning eternal life or eternal punishment or resurrection from the dead.
The Revelation reference is to the eternally ongoing torment of the wicked.
Torment does not include destruction.
 

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Given the Biblical fact that God can destroy the lost's body and soul in Hell (Matt 10:28) exactly what Scripture leads you think that the lost are raised immortal?
Mat 25:46 and Rev 14:11
If God destroys the resurrected bodies and souls of the lost in Hell, totally consuming them, that IS everlasting punishment!
No, it is not. It is temporary punishment. The act of destruction is not eternal even if the result is.
You are confusing an action with a result.
Eternal punishment means that the action of punishment goes on eternally.
When something is destroyed or consumed it is no longer available for punishment.
Destruction: the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired
Punishment: the state of being punished
Punishment can be ongoing, even eternally ongoing.
Destruction is a short term event which comes to an end.
 

dianegcook

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
1,763
Gender
Female
Christian
Yes
Scriptural citation please. What evidence from scripture do you have to support your opinion of what the soul is?

Those two verses are not talking about the same thing.
Psalm 37:20 is not talking about the eternal punishment of the wicked but, rather the TEMPORAL results of their wickedness. It's reference is the Law of Moses which has no content whatsoever concerning eternal life or eternal punishment or resurrection from the dead.
The Revelation reference is to the eternally ongoing torment of the wicked.
Torment does not include destruction.
You are tormenting me now, lol...
Did you not read, the smoke of their torment, in Rev. Goes on forever?
When you grill out, where does the smoke go? Does it not go up forever?
Soul, Strong's #5315, ghost, he, heart, mind, self...mortally...person

Yes, the punishment is final, eternal punishment, not to be remembered any longer..
Not to come back...
 

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
You are tormenting me now, lol...
Did you not read, the smoke of their torment, in Rev. Goes on forever?
When you grill out, where does the smoke go? Does it not go up forever?
Soul, Strong's #5315, ghost, he, heart, mind, self...mortally...person

Yes, the punishment is final, eternal punishment, not to be remembered any longer..
Not to come back...
And your point is............?
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
You are confusing an action with a result.
It is you that is confused. Punishment is a noun in Matt 25:46 and is precisely the result of the verb, to punish. In this case with death of both the body and the soul of the lost. If your notion were Scriptural, Matt 25:46 would say eternal punishing (a verb) or eternal suffering or eternal torture.

And furthermore, Jesus would still be suffering on the cross. Rather than actually having paid the punishment (death), He would be still experiencing suffering, given your notion. Yet, He's not still experiencing the punishing.
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
I asked:
Given the Biblical fact that God can destroy the lost's body and soul in Hell (Matt 10:28) exactly what Scripture leads you think that the lost are raised immortal?
You answered:
Neither verse says that the lost are raised immortal. Thus, you must be assuming that the lost are raised immortal.

Matt 25:46 (LEB) And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the lost depart into Hell AFTER the Judgment, where Jesus says God can destroy both the body and soul, my view is entirely Biblical. Your view assumes God cannot destroy the lost's soul and body in Hell because they must still have body/soul in order to be receiving on-going punishing rather than having actually received their punishment (death). Odd really.

Revelation 14:11 (LEB) And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name.

This verse is not even speaking about the ressurected lost much less their immortality. It's a vision of Beast worshippers and their torture upon the Earth (not after their departure into Hell). Odd that you would even mention it in response to the question I asked about the ressurected lost's immortality. Especially for someone that supposedly does not do "proof-texting".
 

Free

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
13,677
Gender
Male
I asked:

You answered:

Neither verse says that the lost are raised immortal. Thus, you must be assuming that the lost are raised immortal.

Matt 25:46 (LEB) And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the lost depart into Hell AFTER the Judgment, where Jesus says God can destroy both the body and soul, my view is entirely Biblical. Your view assumes God cannot destroy the lost's soul and body in Hell because they must still have body/soul in order to be receiving on-going punishing rather than having actually received their punishment (death). Odd really.

Revelation 14:11 (LEB) And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received the mark of his name.

This verse is not even speaking about the ressurected lost much less their immortality. It's a vision of Beast worshippers and their torture upon the Earth (not after their departure into Hell). Odd that you would even mention it in response to the question I asked about the ressurected lost's immortality. Especially for someone that supposedly does not do "proof-texting".
Just going to post and run as I know these discussions go nowhere. The main problem here with your argument is that Jesus says that God can destroy both body and soul in hell, not that he will. It merely states the ability of God to do so, hence why he is to be feared, but it does not state that killing the body and the soul will actually be the case. It is also significant that this is compared to those who can kill the body but not the soul, which clearly implies that the soul survives death. Not sure if that will help the discussion, but there it is. :)
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
It is also significant that this is compared to those who can kill the body but not the soul,
Yes it is significant that people are not able to kill the soul but are able to kill the body and they do just that. Yet God is able to kill the soul and body. Which the topic is the immortality of the soul after all. Obviously souls are not immortal if God can destroy them. Whether or not He does. Yet we have people claiming He can't. Odd really, when you think about it.

The verse dosen't just say God can kill the soul in Hell but it says to fear Him because of it. An empty/idle fear is not true fear. I just don't see Jesus making idle threats anywhere in the Bible. Including here.

It's also significant that Jesus tells us where/when God is able to kill the body and soul (it's in Hell).
Proof positive, IMO, that the body of the lost ARE (not just might be) sent to Hell. Plus, other Scripture confirms this. Just as it does the destruction of the lost.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (LEB) who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

Yes, God "can" send lost reserrected bodies/souls to Hell. And He will, right??? We are told to fear that event. We are also told to fear the destruction of the body and soul in Hell by God. And He will, right??? See 2 Thess 1:9

It is also significant that all Godly attributes are attributes for a reason.
God is love because He exhibits love.
God is just because He exhibits justice. God is wrathful because He exhibits wrath. God is merciful because He exhibits mercy.
God is to be feared because He can destroy the body and souls in Hell.
 
Last edited:

smaller

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2003
Messages
12,153
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
When you grill out, where does the smoke go? Does it not go up forever?
Soul, Strong's #5315, ghost, he, heart, mind, self...mortally...person
What? You mean there is "gravity" in heaven? Isn't that a law? I thought we wouldn't be under the law? Which way is UP there anyway?

And smoking?!

:cries

Smoke in scriptures have many meanings and associations. It's a long haul through them. Smoke is associated jealousy/anger. The "smoke" seen in Rev. 14:10, going UP, is Gods Direction. Smoke is seen coming from Gods Nostrils. Psalm 18:8. This is the torment of Gods Jealousy upon the captors.

Gods Name is Jealous.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Qanna' {kan-naw'}

Or in english slang, CAN AWE!
 

smaller

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2003
Messages
12,153
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Sometimes simple deductive reasoning will reveal things about hell and the fear of Him who can destroy body and soul in hell. Our "flesh" bodies are destroyed, right here on earth, when we DIE. Our "souls" are also here, on earth, in an earthen body/vessel. Where then is HELL? Uh, yeah. Right here on earth, where our DUST BODY is in fact DESTROYED. Sheol, the grave, gehenna (linked with PRIDE), are associated terms for "hell."

People often MISTAKE the LoF for HELL. It's NOT. "Hell" is actually cast into the LoF in Rev. 20:14. So the LoF is NOT hell.

We are to 'care' for our souls and the souls of others in what we do here in "hell." In "evil" our own soul is diminished. In "good", it is lifted and strengthened. People in the scriptures who do not believe are, in effect, "the walking dead." We see the 'dead' in the N.T. doing activity, such as "burying their dead." Matt. 8:22, Luke 9:60.

All "souls" belong to God, who made "all souls."

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

We all were dead in trespasses and sins, prior to belief by faith in Christ.

Eph. 2:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Do you SEE the "dead" yet? That was you and I in "blinded unbelief." When we HEAR the Voice of God in Christ, we "hear" it from the GRAVE, the DEAD hear HIS VOICE and LIVE.


John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

KINDA puts a damper on "cooperative" salvation, don't it? The dead are DEAD. They won't HEAR unless God Himself RAISES them from the DEAD.

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

When we were thusly saved BY GOD IN CHRIST, by Hearing His Living Words, we were, in effect, Raised from THE DEAD.

Have you never participated in "raising the dead?" Of course you have. You just saw it as a FLESHLY thing before. Now you have 'better eyes.'


When our "soul" is separated from our flesh body, it is "redeemed." That means "returned" from whence it came. Christ paid our "redemption price." Our 'soul' is RE-DEEMED back to it's ORIGINAL OWNER, GOD, our Maker and our Creator who MADE our soul, for which HE IS JEALOUS to receive BACK out of the 'clay' in which HE planted same.

THEN we are "made Perfect" by our Maker, in the Body of Christ.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

When we are "saved" we are in a coalition of the soul/spirit. But that 'soul' is first KILLED by sin and trespasses, before it is RAISED. IN the "mean"time, the earthen body has issues that continue to plague the soul. In this flesh body we are planted with "evil present" Romans 7:21, indwelling sin that is "no more I." Romans 7:17 &20. We are planted in dishonor, weakness, and corruption. 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But the Spirit of Christ in us is NOT changed by any of these "side features" of the "natural man." Nor does He leave us or forsake us. Nor can any "thing" such as the above, SEPARATE us from the Love of God in Christ, He who RAISED US. (contrary to all the voices of the deceived who are led to try to DESTROY those so raised.)

I might consider that the 'soul' is what we perceive as our "current" personality. Our unique individualism, in how God has constructed us, with a "soul" and a "body."


But in Christ, this 'soul' does pass on. There is no "male/female/Jew/Gentile "in Christ." and our "soul" is CHANGED. Technically perhaps, no longer in existence as we currently perceive it, but changed, quite dramatically. Some of what we are does remain, as we see with Moses and Elias, in the mount of transfiguration. But assuredly not the same men they were "in the flesh" and their "soul" existing in that state.

And yeah, our body and soul is DESTROYED in HELL, prior to the soul being RAISED from the dead. That dust pile ain't movin on however.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

These things are much easier to SEE and HEAR when we take our presupposition glasses off, and set aside a lot of the christian fairy tales we have been pre-programmed with.

1 Samuel 2:6
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
 
Last edited:

Jim Parker

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
11,259
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Neither verse says that the lost are raised immortal. Thus, you must be assuming that the lost are raised immortal.
Those verses say that their punishment/torment goes on, continues, for ever.
In order for the punishment/torment to continue forever the person being punished/tormented also must "go on forever."
A person who is reduced to a pile of ashes can no longer be punished or tormented.
I don't understand why that is so hard for you to grasp.
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,598
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Mat 25:46 and Rev 14:11

No, it is not. It is temporary punishment. The act of destruction is not eternal even if the result is.
You are confusing an action with a result.
Eternal punishment means that the action of punishment goes on eternally.
When something is destroyed or consumed it is no longer available for punishment.
Destruction: the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired
Punishment: the state of being punished
Punishment can be ongoing, even eternally ongoing.
Destruction is a short term event which comes to an end.
:thumbsup:popcorn:goodpost:coke
 

chessman

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
4,653
Gender
Male
Those verses say that their punishment/torment goes on, continues, for ever.
Rev 14:11 doesn't say their torment continues forever. It clearly says the smoke of their (Beast worshippers) torment rises forever. And furthermore this occurs in the presence of the Lamb, not in Hell or the Lake of Fire. Is it your view that the Lamb will be in Hell tormenting the lost forever?

Revelation 14:10 he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The Bible doesn't say that the lost's eternal punishment is torment forever. It clearly teaches that death (a second death) is the punishment called for.
 

OzSpen

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,598
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Rev 14:11 doesn't say their torment continues forever. It clearly says the smoke of their (Beast worshippers) torment rises forever. And furthermore this occurs in the presence of the Lamb, not in Hell or the Lake of Fire. Is it your view that the Lamb will be in Hell tormenting the lost forever?

Revelation 14:10 he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The Bible doesn't say that the lost's eternal punishment is torment forever. It clearly teaches that death (a second death) is the punishment called for.
chessman,

This is what happens when you pluck two verses (Rev 14:10-11 ESV) out of context and use them a proof-text. Let's look at the context:

6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgement has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them!” (Rev 14:6-13 ESV).​

The teaching of Rev 14:6-13 (ESV) is that
  • John in his revelation saw angels who had an eternal gospel to proclaim to people on the earth from every nation, tribe, language and people (v. 6).
  • That message was to fear God and give him glory because ...
  • An hour of judgment has come (v. 7).
  • Another angel proclaimed the message of the fallen Babylon the great who made nations drink the wine of the passion of sexual immorality (v. 8).
  • Another angel, with others following, announced in a loud voice that anyone who worships the beast and its image and receives the mark of the beast will drink of the wine of God's wrath and will experience the full strength of the cup of God's anger, being tormented with fire and sulphur. (vv. 9-10).
  • This experience of God's wrath and anger will be in the presence of holy angels and the Lamb (v. 10). After all, it is God's wrath they are experiencing so it makes sense that it will be delivered in the presence of the Lamb.
  • The smoke of this torment goes up for εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων, eis aiwnas aiwnwn, i.e. for aeons of aeons. The meaning is that 'smoke' (a symbol) of this torment is that 'many eons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by "forever and ever." Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and is timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural' (Lenski 1943/1963:48, 438).
  • 'Smoke' is parallel to 'fire and brimstone' and is human language to convey what is experienced in the place where the worshippers of the Beast experience torment that continues for multiplied aeons. This is hell with eternal torment (v. 11).
  • If one wants to water down the 'aeons' to make it less than forever and ever (which the Greek does not permit), John makes that impossible in v. 11 because he adds, 'they have no rest, day or night'. There is no rest 24/7 for the unbelieving worshippers of the Beast who are in torment forever and ever.
  • It is not surprising, therefore, that John - in light of the horrific eternal experiences of the unbelievers - calls on the saints to endure and keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus (v. 12).
  • In contrast to those serving the Beast, those who die in the Lord are blessed from now on. They rest from their labours (again this contrasts with the horrible experience of those drinking God's wrath and the cup of his anger) (v. 13).
There are excellent contextual reasons to demonstrate that Rev 14:11 (ESV) refers to the damned who experience torment for aeons multiplied by aeons - forever and ever and they receive no rest day and night from this - and it's in the presence of the Lord because it is the Lord's wrath they experience.

Coffman's Commentary on Revelation 14:11 is:

Verse 11

and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

The doctrine of the New Testament is so strong and emphatic with regard to the eternal punishment of the wicked, that we are simply not allowed to set it aside as, "sub-Christian, or to interpret it in such a way as to remove the abrasive truth of eternal punishment." [Mounce's commentary, p. 277] Jesus spoke of this at greater length than did any of his apostles. After we have made every allowance for the figurative nature of the apocalyptic language, there still remains, "the terrifying reality of divine wrath," [Mounce's commentary, p. 277] to be poured out upon those who persist in following the devil. It is no light matter to abandon the holy teachings of the sacred New Testament, and to substitute the easy rules of man-made, man-controlled, and man-centered religion.​

Therefore, the context of Rev 14:11 (ESV) demonstrates that those who are serving the Beast will experience the torment of God's wrath in the presence of the Lamb for aeons upon aeons - forever and ever Amen!

That's Bible and one has to do a lot of squirming to make it say other than that. It's called eisegesis.

Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1943/1963. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. John’s Revelation. Minneapolis MN: Augsburg Publishing House (Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. edn.).
 
Last edited:

2020 Hosting Fee

Total amount
$532.00
Goal
$667.40
Top