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The soul of man

dianegcook

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But your commentary on CFnet is more reliable than that by Coffman and Lenski. I know which ones I will trust with their Greek exegesis.

In addition, from the teaching of Rev 14:6-13 (ESV), I provided 11 points of exegesis. Don't you like that commentary that I provided directly from the text, either?

Do you know what diane? Your perspective does not agree with these Scriptures:
  1. All preachers and teachers must be checked against the Scripture (Acts 17:11 ESV). That includes diane, Oz, Coffman and Lenski. Also,
  2. God has given to the church teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry (Eph 4:11-12 ESV; 1 Cor 12:28 ESV). Your own ministry will not be prepared through equipping if you don't allow God's teachers to equip you. Commentators are God's special teachers.
I suggest that with all teaching you check it out with Scripture. That's your biblical requirement. To brush commentaries aside with 'I don't trust someone else's commentaries' is a repudiation of Acts 17:11 (ESV) and Eph 4:11-12 (ESV).

Oz
Hi Oz
I read it, but just didn't agree with somethings that were being interpreted.
For one , whom is our rest?
Heb.4:1-11
Jesus is our rest,
For we which have believed do enter into rest, Sabbath.....
Those whom do not believe will not enter into His rest..
They do not have Jesus...

Some points were good, but what do I do with my scriptures?
Put them on the shelf?
Clearly, you must agree that John 3:16, says perish..
They will die, body and soul...
What is the opposite of eternal life, death?
You might say eternal death, which in a sense is true, because the death is final for all eternity...
Then there is the scripture, that says there shall be no more death, Rev.21:4.
What do I do with that?
You and the commentaries have people in torment without death..

So even though you are beating a dead horse, :wink this horse must decide if the water is good without putting scriptures on the shelf.

Good evening to ya
 

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Never said it was.
Never said it didn't.

The Lake of Fire is a unique end application. To get the other terms to fit that application is problematic, at best. There is only one second death, at the end.

James 3:6 deploys gehenna working, even then/now with the tongue. It is not the LoF as you infer, here:

"First, note that gehenna is often associated with fire, torment, and the final destination of the unbeliever. We see in Revelation that the lake of fire is also a place of fire and is the final destination of the unbeliever. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that Hell proper is the lake of fire."

We also know from Luke 16's rich man account that the wicked "rich man" was confined to a place of torment, and this does not mean it was the LoF either.

The LoF is a "shall have" their place application, at the end, the summation of Divine Judgment. This does not preclude other types of Divine judgments, torments and fires til that time. And you're right. The scripture translations are a bit of a disservice to these various terms.
 

OzSpen

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Hi Oz
I read it, but just didn't agree with somethings that were being interpreted.
For one , whom is our rest?
Heb.4:1-11
Jesus is our rest,
For we which have believed do enter into rest, Sabbath.....
Those whom do not believe will not enter into His rest..
They do not have Jesus...

diane,

What I wrote had ZERO to do with 'our rest'. I said nothing about 'our rest'. Therefore, you have introduced foreign matter into what we were discussing.

Clearly, you must agree that John 3:16, says perish..

Now tell me what the meaning of apollumi (I perish) is in Greek. I happen to read, exegete and teach NT Greek. You have done nothing more than give me your personal understanding of what 'perish' means in the English language.

However, even there you are not accurate with English. The tyres on my car have perished. But they have not been eliminated. They are still on my Camry and the vehicle is still running on them. The oven in our kitchen kicked the bucket yesterday. It is not working and heating the food. It is so perished that my wife is out at the retailers right now discussing a replacement model. But have a guess what? The oven has perished to the point that it will not work in its present state, but the oven is still in the kitchen and has not been annihilated.

Remember that it was you who stated you don't use commentaries. That is showing up in your response here.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Giving up on the singing lessons?
I don't blame you.

Same as, same as, sounds too much like the repetition of singing Hillsong, Jesus Culture, the Beach Boys, the Beatles and Bob Dylan.

Redefining words to make them fit into one's theology is a constant threat to orthodox Christianity (check out 1 John 4:1-4 ESV; Acts 17:11 ESV).

Enjoy your desert environment for the Fall season as I encounter the Spring season in the sub-tropics.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I'm back in the much greener People's Socialist Republik of Kalifornia.
My mom-in-law, who is 90, requires someone to be in the house with her in case of accidents.
So I'm the butler.
:shrug

jim

The family and I left the smog of Anaheim CA in 1987 for me to return to Aust for open heart (valve replacement) heart surgery. I wouldn't recommend that contaminated area of CA to my dog.

However, we did live in Kirkland WA (outer suburb of Seattle), Ashland OH (Old Order Amish country), and Terre Haute IN, which were far more inhabitable.

Is your mother-in-law in reasonable health or not?

Oz
 

dianegcook

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diane,

What I wrote had ZERO to do with 'our rest'. I said nothing about 'our rest'. Therefore, you have introduced foreign matter into what we were discussing.



Now tell me what the meaning of apollumi (I perish) is in Greek. I happen to read, exegete and teach NT Greek. You have done nothing more than give me your personal understanding of what 'perish' means in the English language.

However, even there you are not accurate with English. The tyres on my car have perished. But they have not been eliminated. They are still on my Camry and the vehicle is still running on them. The oven in our kitchen kicked the bucket yesterday. It is not working and heating the food. It is so perished that my wife is out at the retailers right now discussing a replacement model. But have a guess what? The oven has perished to the point that it will not work in its present state, but the oven is still in the kitchen and has not been annihilated.

Remember that it was you who stated you don't use commentaries. That is showing up in your response here.

Oz
Oz,
You are the one whom mentioned, "they have no rest day nor night" Rev.14:11
One can take it as, they have not Christ, rest..
I have given the word "perish" from the Strong's Concordanace, I believe on this thread,
If not,
Here you go....I didn't make it up...
Greek #622, appollumi, meaning to destroy fully, die
Hence, we are talking about souls here, not tires, cars, whatever.
Everyone's flesh perish, even the one's in Christ..
Thus, in John 3:16 they do not" perish" but have everlasting life is concerning souls..
Those without Christ, perish, die, destroyed fully
As in Matt.10:28, to destroy both soul and body...

As I stated, I read commentaries, but don't have to agree with it.
Every man has an interpretation.
Scholars don't always agree!
I read them, and hopefully through the Spirit in me, can discern.
 

Free

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The Lake of Fire is a unique end application. To get the other terms to fit that application is problematic, at best. There is only one second death, at the end.

James 3:6 deploys gehenna working, even then/now with the tongue. It is not the LoF as you infer, here:

"First, note that gehenna is often associated with fire, torment, and the final destination of the unbeliever. We see in Revelation that the lake of fire is also a place of fire and is the final destination of the unbeliever. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that Hell proper is the lake of fire."
Jesus speaks of gehenna as being the final destination of the unbeliever, which is a significant point you are not addressing.

Mar 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mar 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
Mar 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (ESV)

We also know from Luke 16's rich man account that the wicked "rich man" was confined to a place of torment, and this does not mean it was the LoF either.
We know it isn't the lake of fire because it's Hades. And being that this account is possibly a parable, we should be careful to draw certain conclusions from it.
 

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Jesus speaks of gehenna as being the final destination of the unbeliever, which is a significant point you are not addressing.

Already addressed. Gehenna and the LoF are NOT the same working. James 3:6. The "fire of hell" is expressed there, gehenna, working. It is NOT the LoF. The LoF is the final solution, that comes at the completion of Divine Judgment.

I also pointed out that the "rich man" in the parable of Luke 16 was in "torment." NOT necessarily in the LoF.

We know it isn't the lake of fire because it's Hades. And being that this account is possibly a parable, we should be careful to draw certain conclusions from it.

I am certain that the LoF is the completion of eternal, for ever and ever, damnation. This does NOT preclude other forms of torment being in operations, prior to.

God works many forms of His Wrath, every day on earth.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Abideth, present tense. Not "will abide" as a future tense measure of the permanency of the LoF, from which nothing going therein will escape.


There are many exercises, currently, of Gods Wrath working upon the earth. Exampled in:

Ezekiel 21:31
And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.

This particular form of wrath is well exercised, even among believers, to each others. But it is the wrath of God upon them already, shown by what they do:


Isaiah 9:19
Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

We have people here, everyday, trying to condemn believers into possible hell. This is NOT uncommon. It rages on, everywhere. And it is the opposite or opposing sight of Christ. It is A FIRE, lit in the tongues of the congregation. It is death working upon the carriers. They couldn't forgive and forget if their eternal life depended on it. I believe such will be saved because there is more working within and going on, than "just them" in the dust ball.

Evil is present with all of us. Romans 7:21. The sooner we figure it out, the better we will be, to move on and forward, not being it's little mouthpiece pawns.

James 1:20
For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
 

Jim Parker

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That's your insertion into the text. It's called postmodern reconstruction.
This is an excellent example of taking a single word out of two totally different contexts and attempting to make them have the same meaning.
In the Rev 4 passage, the word rest refers to the fact that there is no interruption in the torment.
In the Heb 4 passage is a continuation of the teaching on obedience which begins in Heb 3.
This seems to be an example of "verbal parallelomania"*; adducing a parallel of questionable worth or where none exists.

I'm sure that this abysmal failure was not intentional but it is a perfect example of amateur eisegesis at its worst and a clear demonstration that the mere ability to read does not equate to expertise in Biblical exposition.
In this case, there is absolutely no parallel between the application of the word "rest" in the two passages. It is very unfortunate that anyone would perceive there to be.

mazel tov

iakov the fool

* Exegetical Fallacies, p.43, D.A. Carson, Baker Book House
 

OzSpen

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This is an excellent example of taking a single word out of two totally different contexts and attempting to make them have the same meaning.
In the Rev 4 passage, the word rest refers to the fact that there is no interruption in the torment.
In the Heb 4 passage is a continuation of the teaching on obedience which begins in Heb 3.
This seems to be an example of "verbal parallelomania"*; adducing a parallel of questionable worth or where none exists.

I'm sure that this abysmal failure was not intentional but it is a perfect example of amateur eisegesis at its worst and a clear demonstration that the mere ability to read does not equate to expertise in Biblical exposition.
In this case, there is absolutely no parallel between the application of the word "rest" in the two passages. It is very unfortunate that anyone would perceive there to be.

mazel tov

iakov the fool

* Exegetical Fallacies, p.43, D.A. Carson, Baker Book House

You are speaking very deeply as a mature exegete who knows what eisegesis looks like - with the help of Don Carson.

Blessings to you, brother,
Oz
 

Jim Parker

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You are speaking very deeply as a mature exegete who knows what eisegesis looks like - with the help of Don Carson.

Blessings to you, brother,
Oz
There is more very good information in the beginning of Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft and Tachelli.

It is one symptom of a Church in distress which imagines that apologetics can be reduced to dueling "proof-texts." Yet, here we are.

iakov the fool
 

OzSpen

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There is more very good information in the beginning of Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Kreeft and Tachelli.

It is one symptom of a Church in distress which imagines that apologetics can be reduced to dueling "proof-texts." Yet, here we are.

iakov the fool

Jim,

I have that Handbook in my library - excellent material.

Proof-texting for apologetics sounds like an excellent topic that you might like to start. If they came to my secular country, proof-texting from the Bible would fall flat.

Today I've uploaded a new article to my homepage that attempts to address the promotion of euthanasia and assisted suicide in our culture: Blatant promotion of euthanasia by ABC TV

One fellow (Ronald Spencer) in a leading Melbourne newspaper, the Herald Sun, to whom I responded wrote: 'If Max was a animal his carers would be prosecuted as for the Liberal Senator Knoll you can pray to your mythical god and suffer if he wishes you to me I will die with dignity at my own hand where I want and when I wan'.

Quoting Bible proof-texts to such a secularist would be a waste of time. He's nowhere near ready to dialogue with biblical material when he regards Christians who oppose euthanasia as those who 'can pray to your mythical god'. I just had a thought that perhaps we should address him as Paul did with the 'unknown god' folks on the Areopagus (Acts 17 ESV).

That's for another topic.

Oz
 

Butch5

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Hello everyone,

If, like Calvinists and many other evangelical Christians, you happen to believe the souls of all men will live forever, could you explain to me please exactly where in the Bible such a doctrine comes from? The reason I ask is because I am a Christian who has regularly attended an evangelical church these last 19 years… https://0testsite00.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/immortality-vs-mortality/

Man doesn't have an immortal soul. Paul, speaking of the Father, indicates that it is the Father alone who has immortality.

Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;1
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:13-16 KJV)

The Father alone has immortality. Paul outranks any Christian so, the argument is over. The immortal soul doctrine comes from Greek Philosophy. Plato's teachings on the soul were popular at the time the NT was written. Many of the Greeks held this thinking and it eventually worked it's way into Christianity as more and more Greeks became Christians.
 

Butch5

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The Jehovah's Witnesses are not a Christian denomination since they deny the Trinity.
The 7th Day Adventists do not deny the trinity but they do have some very strange teachings, the annihilation of the wicked being one of them.

It may be what you believe but annihilation of the condemned is not according to God's word.

iakov the fool

Jim, Can you show me where in the Bible it says one is not a Christian if they deny the Trinity?
 
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