The soul of man

[dianegcook]

And your point is............?

My point was,
You asked me the definition of soul, thus I provided.
And Psa.37:20, read the whole chapter, even if you think it is in the law of Moses, the soul of men do not change..
The wicked shall perish, period.
John 3:16,
Those whom do not believe perish.
And I have provided for you, the word "perish" from the Strong's, which plainly states, destroy fully, die...
Can destroy body and soul..as Matt. states.
In Rev.21:4 states, that there will be no more death, sorrow, crying, no more pain, for the former things are passed away.
If there is no longer death, how can that be, if Uncle Fred is still being tormented?
As I have tried to explain to you, that eternal punishment, means, it is final forever...
They will no longer exist for eternity..

Have a good day

 

[dianegcook]

Those verses say that their punishment/torment goes on, continues, for ever.
In order for the punishment/torment to continue forever the person being punished/tormented also must "go on forever."
A person who is reduced to a pile of ashes can no longer be punished or tormented.
I don't understand why that is so hard for you to grasp.

You said, a person who is reduced to a pile of ashes can no longer be punished or tormented..
Ezek.28:18, 19
I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and bring thee to ashes...
Never shalt thou be any more.
You can't get any clearer than that.
If that is Satan's destiny, so is it for the wicked..

 

[dianegcook]

chessman,

This is what happens when you pluck two verses (Rev 14:10-11 ESV) out of context and use them a proof-text. Let's look at the context:

6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgement has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them!” (Rev 14:6-13 ESV).​

The teaching of Rev 14:6-13 (ESV) is that

• John in his revelation saw angels who had an eternal gospel to proclaim to people on the earth from every nation, tribe, language and people (v. 6).
• That message was to fear God and give him glory because ...
• An hour of judgment has come (v. 7).
• Another angel proclaimed the message of the fallen Babylon the great who made nations drink the wine of the passion of sexual immorality (v. 8).
  
• Another angel, with others following, announced in a loud voice that anyone who worships the beast and its image and receives the mark of the beast will drink of the wine of God's wrath and will experience the full strength of the cup of God's anger, being tormented with fire and sulphur. (vv. 9-10).
• This experience of God's wrath and anger will be in the presence of holy angels and the Lamb (v. 10). After all, it is God's wrath they are experiencing so it makes sense that it will be delivered in the presence of the Lamb.
  
• The smoke of this torment goes up for εἰς αἰῶνας αἰώνων, eis aiwnas aiwnwn, i.e. for aeons of aeons. The meaning is that 'smoke' (a symbol) of this torment is that 'many eons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by "forever and ever." Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and is timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural' (Lenski 1943/1963:48, 438).
• 'Smoke' is parallel to 'fire and brimstone' and is human language to convey what is experienced in the place where the worshippers of the Beast experience torment that continues for multiplied aeons. This is hell with eternal torment (v. 11).
• If one wants to water down the 'aeons' to make it less than forever and ever (which the Greek does not permit), John makes that impossible in v. 11 because he adds, 'they have no rest, day or night'. There is no rest 24/7 for the unbelieving worshippers of the Beast who are in torment forever and ever.
• It is not surprising, therefore, that John - in light of the horrific eternal experiences of the unbelievers - calls on the saints to endure and keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus (v. 12).
• In contrast to those serving the Beast, those who die in the Lord are blessed from now on. They rest from their labours (again this contrasts with the horrible experience of those drinking God's wrath and the cup of his anger) (v. 13).

There are excellent contextual reasons to demonstrate that Rev 14:11 (ESV) refers to the damned who experience torment for aeons multiplied by aeons - forever and ever and they receive no rest day and night from this - and it's in the presence of the Lord because it is the Lord's wrath they experience.

Coffman's Commentary on Revelation 14:11 is:

Verse 11

and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

The doctrine of the New Testament is so strong and emphatic with regard to the eternal punishment of the wicked, that we are simply not allowed to set it aside as, "sub-Christian, or to interpret it in such a way as to remove the abrasive truth of eternal punishment." [Mounce's commentary, p. 277] Jesus spoke of this at greater length than did any of his apostles. After we have made every allowance for the figurative nature of the apocalyptic language, there still remains, "the terrifying reality of divine wrath," [Mounce's commentary, p. 277] to be poured out upon those who persist in following the devil. It is no light matter to abandon the holy teachings of the sacred New Testament, and to substitute the easy rules of man-made, man-controlled, and man-centered religion.​

Therefore, the context of Rev 14:11 (ESV) demonstrates that those who are serving the Beast will experience the torment of God's wrath in the presence of the Lamb for aeons upon aeons - forever and ever Amen!

That's Bible and one has to do a lot of squirming to make it say other than that. It's called eisegesis.

Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1943/1963. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. John’s Revelation. Minneapolis MN: Augsburg Publishing House (Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. edn.).

Sorry Oz
I don't trust someone else's commentaries..
Doesn't make sense to me..

Have a good one

 

[chessman]

This is what happens when you pluck two verses (Rev 14:10-11 ESV) out of context and use them a proof-text. Let's look at the context:

I did look at the context. That's how I know that the context is that Beast worshippers are tormented in the presence of the Lamb (Jesus). Thus, it's not in Hell.

Smoke' is parallel to 'fire and brimstone' and is human language to convey what is experienced in the place where the worshippers of the Beast experience torment that continues for multiplied aeons. This is hell with eternal torment (v. 11).

Why would someone change the context (the place) of the Beast worshippers to Hell mid-sentence??? Oh, I know why. So that you can claim "This is Hell with eternal torment (v11). Again, v11 doesn't say eternal torment.

This is what happens when you pluck one verse (Rev 14:11 ESV) out of context and make it a proof-text.

Bingo!

It was one of the two verses Jim Parker claimed 'proved' to him that the lost experience eternal torment in Hell and thus they cannot have mortal reserrected bodies and souls.

So, I addressed it and showed the Biblical evidence why it doesn't prove his claim or yours ("this is Hell with eternal torment"). Unless you think Jesus is present in Hell tormenting the lost forever, versus with us in the New Heaven and New Earth, it's entirely not possible.

 

[smaller]

So, I addressed it and showed the Biblical evidence why it doesn't prove his claim or yours ("this is Hell with eternal torment"). Unless you think Jesus is present in Hell tormenting the lost forever, versus with us in the New Heaven and New Earth, it's entirely not possible.

Fortunately or unfortunately there are some doctrines/positions in certain sects that can not be discussed here. If they were discussed, you'd see at least "some" wisdom in their claims.

However there IS torment in the "presence of the Lamb" as Rev. 14:10 shows us. And these, so tormented, have "no rest day or night" vs. 11. If these were actually destroyed, there would be none of this. This kind of eradicates the notions of the LoF taking place somewhere else, as some propose, separation from God. There really is no place that is separate from God's Omnipresence to start with.

 

[Jim Parker]

Rev 14:11 doesn't say their torment continues forever. It clearly says the smoke of their (Beast worshippers) torment rises forever.

That is illogical.
The smoke would not go up forever if the torment did not continue forever.

And furthermore this occurs in the presence of the Lamb, not in Hell or the Lake of Fire.

Irrelevant.
The subject is whether the torment/punishment continues eternally not where it takes place.

Is it your view that the Lamb will be in Hell tormenting the lost forever?

I cannot imagine where or how you came up with that [edited, staff].

The Bible doesn't say that the lost's eternal punishment is torment forever.

So you think that the word "eternal" does not mean "forever" and that the words "torment" and "punishment" are not synonyms?

From the Miriam-Webster dictionary;
Eternal: (1) having infinite duration (2) continued without intermission
Forever: (1) for an endless time (2) for all time
Torment: (1) extreme physical or mental pain (2) something that causes extreme physical or mental pain
Punishment: (1) the act of punishing someone or a way of punishing someone (2) the state of being punished

According to Mat 25:41 the wicked are sent to "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
And at verse 46 that is described as: "everlasting punishment".

The scripture does not support your JW interpretation.

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry Oz
I don't trust someone else's commentaries..
Doesn't make sense to me..

Have a good one

But your commentary on CFnet is more reliable than that by Coffman and Lenski. I know which ones I will trust with their Greek exegesis.

In addition, from the teaching of Rev 14:6-13 (ESV), I provided 11 points of exegesis. Don't you like that commentary that I provided directly from the text, either?

Do you know what diane? Your perspective does not agree with these Scriptures:

1. All preachers and teachers must be checked against the Scripture (Acts 17:11 ESV). That includes diane, Oz, Coffman and Lenski. Also,
2. God has given to the church teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry (Eph 4:11-12 ESV; 1 Cor 12:28 ESV). Your own ministry will not be prepared through equipping if you don't allow God's teachers to equip you. Commentators are God's special teachers.

I suggest that with all teaching you check it out with Scripture. That's your biblical requirement. To brush commentaries aside with 'I don't trust someone else's commentaries' is a repudiation of Acts 17:11 (ESV) and Eph 4:11-12 (ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I did look at the context. That's how I know that the context is that Beast worshippers are tormented in the presence of the Lamb (Jesus). Thus, it's not in Hell.

That's your invention. There is absolutely nothing in Rev. 14:11 (ESV) that states that what the worshippers of the Beast experienced was not torment in Hell. It states that it was caused by the one who exercises the wrath/anger of God.

Why would someone change the context (the place) of the Beast worshippers to Hell mid-sentence??? Oh, I know why. So that you can claim "This is Hell with eternal torment (v11). Again, v11 doesn't say eternal torment.

Wrong conclusion again! I provided extensive exegesis and exposition of Rev 14:8-13 (ESV) to give context and not for you to invent what I didn't write. Your invention is an imposition on the text.

I showed clearly that the 'smoke of their torment for aeons upon aeons (forever and ever)' and 'they have no rest, day or night' (v. 11) is what these unbelievers experience. And you want to make that as NOT eternal torment. Your interpretation demonstrates another agenda that is seeking to impose destruction meaning annihilation on the text.

Bingo!
It was one of the two verses Jim Parker claimed 'proved' to him that the lost experience eternal torment in Hell and thus they cannot have mortal reserrected (sic) bodies and souls.

Bingo! Exactly! Jim's interpretation is exactly the same as my conclusion, based on the exegesis of the text, especially the Greek text of Rev 14:10-11 (ESV) and its context.

There will be resurrected bodies for unbelievers and believers and we can get further explanations of these in the latter section of 1 Cor 15 (ESV).

So, I addressed it and showed the Biblical evidence why it doesn't prove his claim or yours ("this is Hell with eternal torment"). Unless you think Jesus is present in Hell tormenting the lost forever, versus with us in the New Heaven and New Earth, it's entirely not possible.

You've proved nothing by this comment except ignoring the exegesis I provided that demonstrates torment forever and ever amen. I'm convinced you took no notice of the exegesis I demonstrated in Rev 14:8-13 (ESV) to show that those serving the Beast experience the torment of the Lord where there is 'smoke' forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb.

You stated: 'Unless you think Jesus is present in Hell tormenting the lost forever'. This is what happens when you take no notice of my exegesis. Those experiencing the torment of God's wrath will experience it for aeons upon aeons with 'no rest, day or night' for 24/7 because they will be 'tormented in the presence of the Lamb' (Rev 14:10 ESV). Do you get it or will you refuse to accept what the text states?

Oz

 

[Free]

Yes it is significant that people are not able to kill the soul but are able to kill the body and they do just that. Yet God is able to kill the soul and body. Which the topic is the immortality of the soul after all. Obviously souls are not immortal if God can destroy them. Whether or not He does. Yet we have people claiming He can't. Odd really, when you think about it.

People cannot kill the soul because the soul is immaterial. I think there are two different ideas of "immortality" that need to be delineated. There is God who is obviously immortal, always having existed and being all-powerful; he cannot die. But since immortality means "not capable of dying" (Merriam-Webster), and the Bible clearly says that God is able to make immortal those who are resurrected, it seems that immortality refers also to those created things which--apart from God intervening and destroying if he so desired--cannot die.

The verse dosen't just say God can kill the soul in Hell but it says to fear Him because of it. An empty/idle fear is not true fear. I just don't see Jesus making idle threats anywhere in the Bible. Including here.

The point is to fear God because of what he is capable of but that in no way whatsoever means that he will destroy the soul in hell. You are going against grammar here which clearly says "can," not "will". And that does not make it an empty threat.

It's also significant that Jesus tells us where/when God is able to kill the body and soul (it's in Hell).
Proof positive, IMO, that the body of the lost ARE (not just might be) sent to Hell. Plus, other Scripture confirms this. Just as it does the destruction of the lost.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (LEB) who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

Yes, God "can" send lost reserrected bodies/souls to Hell. And He will, right??? We are told to fear that event. We are also told to fear the destruction of the body and soul in Hell by God. And He will, right??? See 2 Thess 1:9

It is also significant that all Godly attributes are attributes for a reason.
God is love because He exhibits love.
God is just because He exhibits justice. God is wrathful because He exhibits wrath. God is merciful because He exhibits mercy.
God is to be feared because He can destroy the body and souls in Hell.

Of course God will send the bodies and souls of unbelievers to hell, that is without question. The issue revolves around just what happens in hell. But you, like most everyone who has been on these forums and believes as you do, continually overlook a key passage which must be included in the context of the discussion. Interestingly, it is during the same discussion in Luke's account of fearing what God can do, not what man can do (Luke 12:4-5).

Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (ESV)

Very clearly then, just as Paul speaks of levels of reward for believers, Jesus speaks of three general levels of punishment for unbelievers. Note that this is at Jesus's return, which means it is speaking of the Judgement, after which unbelievers are thrown into hell.

You want us to believe that being thrown into hell means that one simply ceases to exist, yet Jesus clearly teaches something different.

 

[Free]

Sometimes simple deductive reasoning will reveal things about hell and the fear of Him who can destroy body and soul in hell. Our "flesh" bodies are destroyed, right here on earth, when we DIE. Our "souls" are also here, on earth, in an earthen body/vessel. Where then is HELL? Uh, yeah. Right here on earth, where our DUST BODY is in fact DESTROYED. Sheol, the grave, gehenna (linked with PRIDE), are associated terms for "hell."

People often MISTAKE the LoF for HELL. It's NOT. "Hell" is actually cast into the LoF in Rev. 20:14. So the LoF is NOT hell.

Please note that I am not going to turn this into a discussion on hell. However, I will address this once (there is a much longer, older thread on it in End Times somewhere), since this has come up many times in the past.

First, note that gehenna is often associated with fire, torment, and the final destination of the unbeliever. We see in Revelation that the lake of fire is also a place of fire and is the final destination of the unbeliever. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that Hell proper is the lake of fire.

As to the "mistake" above, the mistake is actually to claim that "Hell cannot be the lake of fire because 'Hell' gets cast into the lake of fire." This mistake is based on a lack of study, usually by those adhering to a single version like the KJV. There are three Greek words that the KJV unfortunately and erroneously translates as "hell"--gehenna, hades, and tartaroo.

Jesus always used gehenna for the place of punishment, the final destination of the unbeliever, the place where one ought to avoid by even plucking out their eye or cutting off their foot. Hades on the other hand is never associated with those things and is roughly the equivalent of the OT sheol, the grave.

So when we look at the Greek in Revelation 20:13-14, we see something quite different than what was quoted above, namely, that it is Hades that gets thrown into the lake of fire, not hell, which would be gehenna:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

It is quite clear that Hades here would most likely be the grave, hence the dead that were in it. Thankfully several versions, such as the ESV, make things clear for us.

 

[chessman]

I'm convinced you took no notice of the exegesis I demonstrated in Rev 14:8-13 (ESV) to show that those serving the Beast experience the torment of the Lord where there is 'smoke' forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb.

I took notice of your exegesis. In fact, I saw nothing within it that I disagreed with.

In fact, I noticed that when you exegete v6 you acknowledge that the context of this passage demonstrates the torment is occuring to Beast worshipers living on the earth:

John in his revelation saw angels who had an eternal gospel to proclaim to people on the earth from every nation, tribe, language and people (v. 6).

There's no reason whatsoever (all exegesis considered) to think this torment, v11, is speaking of torture occuring forever post reserrection in Hell. Or that the torment itself goes on forever simply because the symbology of the smoke rising forever is used. Notice that in this verse torment is a noun (the result of a verb) not a verb. The verb (the action) that is occuring is the smoke rising, not torture occuring.

 

[chessman]

the Bible clearly says that God is able to make immortal those who are resurrected

The Bible clearly says God will make immortal those who are resurrected in Christ. Nowhere does it say or even imply that He will grant immortality to those resurrected outside of Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

In fact, I noticed that when you exegete v6 you acknowledge that the context of this passage demonstrates the torment is occuring to Beast worshipers living on the earth:

That's false. Nowhere did I state that.

Bye,

 

[OzSpen]

That is illogical.
The smoke would not go up forever if the torment did not continue forever.

Irrelevant.
The subject is whether the torment/punishment continues eternally not where it takes place.

I cannot imagine where or how you came up with such a ridiculous notion.

So you think that the word "eternal" does not mean "forever" and that the words "torment" and "punishment" are not synonyms?

From the Miriam-Webster dictionary;
Eternal: (1) having infinite duration (2) continued without intermission
Forever: (1) for an endless time (2) for all time
Torment: (1) extreme physical or mental pain (2) something that causes extreme physical or mental pain
Punishment: (1) the act of punishing someone or a way of punishing someone (2) the state of being punished

According to Mat 25:41 the wicked are sent to "the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
And at verse 46 that is described as: "everlasting punishment".

The scripture does not support your JW interpretation.

Excellent assessment, Jim.

However, no matter what exegesis and reasoning we provide, I think we are:

 

[chessman]

In fact, I noticed that when you exegete v6 you acknowledge that the context of this passage demonstrates the torment is occuring to Beast worshipers living on the earth:

That's false. Nowhere did I state that.

See below

• John in his revelation saw angels who had an eternal gospel to proclaim to people on the earth from every nation, tribe, language and people (v. 6).

• That message was to fear God and give him glory because ...

• An hour of judgment has come (v. 7).

 

[smaller]

Please note that I am not going to turn this into a discussion on hell. However, I will address this once (there is a much longer, older thread on it in End Times somewhere), since this has come up many times in the past.

First, note that gehenna is often associated with fire, torment, and the final destination of the unbeliever. We see in Revelation that the lake of fire is also a place of fire and is the final destination of the unbeliever. Therefore, it is logical to conclude that Hell proper is the lake of fire.

I agree, even though the term you use is odd, "Hell proper," that the LoF is what believers consider to be Hell/final. This does not however conclude that any number of other terms referred to are HELL. The Lake of Fire is never termed "Hell proper of final Hell or anything else. It is the Lake of Fire.

As to the "mistake" above, the mistake is actually to claim that "Hell cannot be the lake of fire because 'Hell' gets cast into the lake of fire." This mistake is based on a lack of study, usually by those adhering to a single version like the KJV. There are three Greek words that the KJV unfortunately and erroneously translates as "hell"--gehenna, hades, and tartaroo.

Jesus always used gehenna for the place of punishment, the final destination of the unbeliever, the place where one ought to avoid by even plucking out their eye or cutting off their foot. Hades on the other hand is never associated with those things and is roughly the equivalent of the OT sheol, the grave.

The Lake of Fire is never referred to as HELL. And yes, there are different terms/depictions of various functions PRE Lake of Fire, such as "gehenna, hades, and tartaroo."

If you're claiming that all these other terms are also the Lake of Fire we'll have to disagree. The Lake of Fire transpires at final judgment (for whatever-whoever is tossed therein.)

So when we look at the Greek in Revelation 20:13-14, we see something quite different than what was quoted above, namely, that it is Hades that gets thrown into the lake of fire, not hell, which would be gehenna:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (ESV)

It is quite clear that Hades here would most likely be the grave, hence the dead that were in it. Thankfully several versions, such as the ESV, make things clear for us.

The difficulty "your positions" will always have Free, and it's too bad that such positions miss the obvious, is this. The positions you posture always and only see MAN. When in fact there is an entire other world of inhabitants going on in the scriptures that are NOT MAN.

These players are also involved, PRIMARILY, in the terms you are dealing with above.

So, ask yourself how encompassing your positions and understandings of those terms are dealing with them? These will assuredly have their ending in the LoF. But there are also "intermediate states" FOR THEM.


Matthew 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out

Ask your own positions Free, what happens to 'wicked spirits' when they DEPART the flesh of any person when the person dies? and THEN factor that fact into your deployments of terms above. There you will find far more meaning to all of those other 'terms.'

I'm pretty sure from our prior conversations that these various terms, for your purposes, doesn't even address them, as usual.

 

[Sinthesis]

Time is relative, so that quirk should probably be factored into our biblically based yet still hypothetical models of the afterlife.

 

[OzSpen]

See below

Wrong again! The exegesis of Rev 14:6 that I provided did not deal with Hell. It was the Gospel for people on the earth - all people.

Bye, bye.

 

[Free]

I agree, even though the term you use is odd, "Hell proper," that the LoF is what believers consider to be Hell/final. This does not however conclude that any number of other terms referred to are HELL. The Lake of Fire is never termed "Hell proper of final Hell or anything else. It is the Lake of Fire.


The Lake of Fire is never referred to as HELL. And yes, there are different terms/depictions of various functions PRE Lake of Fire, such as "gehenna, hades, and tartaroo."

If you're claiming that all these other terms are also the Lake of Fire we'll have to disagree. The Lake of Fire transpires at final judgment (for whatever-whoever is tossed therein.)



The difficulty "your positions" will always have Free, and it's too bad that such positions miss the obvious, is this. The positions you posture always and only see MAN. When in fact there is an entire other world of inhabitants going on in the scriptures that are NOT MAN.

These players are also involved, PRIMARILY, in the terms you are dealing with above.

So, ask yourself how encompassing your positions and understandings of those terms are dealing with them? These will assuredly have their ending in the LoF. But there are also "intermediate states" FOR THEM.


Matthew 12:43
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out

Ask your own positions Free, what happens to 'wicked spirits' when they DEPART the flesh of any person when the person dies? and THEN factor that fact into your deployments of terms above. There you will find far more meaning to all of those other 'terms.'

I'm pretty sure from our prior conversations that these various terms, for your purposes, doesn't even address them, as usual.

No need to bring up other issues you have that are not on topic just because I showed where your argument was wrong. Like I said, this is off-topic and I'm not going to address it further.

 

[smaller]

No need to bring up other issues you have that are not on topic just because I showed where your argument was wrong. Like I said, this is off-topic and I'm not going to address it further.

It's not an "other issue" as you claim. If you want to comment, then expect return observations. You don't have to comment on the return observations. But the comments you imposed are not all the observations available on the subject matter. Hades is NOT the LoF in any case.

The LoF comes at thee END only. Hades is a state until that time, and a state for evil/wicked spirits, unseen, until their final judgment in the LoF.