What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[Karl]

What, do we seek a LAW that we must follow and obey before we will permit the Lord to reveal his truth unto us? And yes, as a matter of fact anything that is not the literal verse word for word is considered an opinion. I have a Bible that I am quite capable of reading on my own. I do not come to this site that someone may teach me the Bible, I come to read their thoughts and opinions. Is it how I see it? Why do the they think differently than I? Do I really understand it as I should? Only by their "opinions" can I question my own understanding and allow the Lord to reveal His truth in me.



How should we first address "life" before we can begin to discuss the resurrection, when the only knowledge we have of life is found in the resurrection of Christ?

So we just throw out Biblical principles of studying the Word, and just let Jesus talk to us, ...how do we know/determine if it's Jesus speaking and not some other voice?

In the life of Jesus, which came first, His birth or His resurrection?
Which came first in our lives, birth or resurrection?

Do you know there are two words used in the New Testament for life, do you know what they are, do you know their signification in our lives?

 

[Karl]

Karl,

Why don't you start us off with some of the biblical criteria and guidelines that you had in mind?

You stated: 'we all know in the Greek the word for opinion is heresy'. How is it that 'we all know'? I read and have taught NT Greek and that's not my understanding of 'heresy'.

Oz

I envy you, I wish I could read Greek, I have to depend on Strong's, Robert's Word Pictures, Vincent's Word Studies and Thayer's Greek Definitions, ...please correct me if I'm wrong.

The reason I say, from my rudiment understanding of Greek, the signification of heresy is opinion is taken from what Paul says to the Corinthians,

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1Co 11:18, 19

Thayer gives the definition of heresy as,
choosing,
choice, that which is chosen,
a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

Doesn't that mean heresy can mean, is an opinion?

Who do we find in the NT that were sects or parties with their different opinions, was it not the Pharisees and the Sadducees?

Is not Paul saying these heresies cause divisions in the Body of Christ?

Since he says there will be heresies, how will we know which to believe, heresy or Truth, how will we know what the Truth is if we don't examine it under the Light of the Word? Isa 8:20

Since I have tried to explain where I'm coming from in my bumbling way, may I please ask you what is your understanding of heresy?

 

[ezrider]

So we just throw out Biblical principles of studying the Word, and just let Jesus talk to us, ...how do we know/determine if it's Jesus speaking and not some other voice?

In the life of Jesus, which came first, His birth or His resurrection?
Which came first in our lives, birth or resurrection?

Do you know there are two words used in the New Testament for life, do you know what they are, do you know their signification in our lives?

Do you have any interest in participating in the discussion I have started here? Perhaps you might discuss something I have said and share your opinion on that, or offer a different opinion. But to stand in Judgement of how the Lord might see fit to establish His truth? If you have nothing substantive to add to the conversation, then what is your intent? If you think your sound Biblical studying principles of the written word can bend the Spirit of the Lord to your will, then by all means start your own study thread on the resurrection so you can demonstrate these principles in action and make known unto us the truth through the power of the spirit.

Meanwhile, I think I have done a fairly descent job in posting and referencing any scripture references that have supported my "opinion." Do you take exception to the reference I provided? What gives?

If you can't comment on anything that I have shared, then I have no reason to dialog with you.

 

[ezrider]

2 Corinthians 3:1-6
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
And such trust have we through Christ to God- ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

It is my opinion and belief, that if we are to become able ministers of the new testament, then we must step out in faith and and learn to express the word of God as it lays within our hearts and express it in our own words. The understanding that we seek from the Lord will never be revealed from the words and letters in the book. True understanding will only be revealed by the Spirit working in our hearts. If we hide behind the words of the Bible, then how shall we become able ministers of the Spirit? If the Spirit of the Lord and the Word of God truly dwells within my heart, then that is the voice for which I try to find words to express. If I hide behind the words of the Bible, then how shall I ever grow in Faith. Only when we find the courage to step out in Faith and declare the beliefs that we hold closet to our heart will the truth or error of our doctrine be brought in to the light, and only after it is brought into the light, are we ever ready to receive his truth.

 

[ezrider]

For me, my life was resurrected the moment I began to believe in Christ and except his gift of eternal life. I was no longer dead in my trespasses and sin.

Spoken with such clarity and simplicity, yet powerful and to the point!

 

[OzSpen]

I envy you, I wish I could read Greek, I have to depend on Strong's, Robert's Word Pictures, Vincent's Word Studies and Thayer's Greek Definitions, ...please correct me if I'm wrong.

The reason I say, from my rudiment understanding of Greek, the signification of heresy is opinion is taken from what Paul says to the Corinthians,

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1Co 11:18, 19

Thayer gives the definition of heresy as,
choosing,
choice, that which is chosen,
a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

Doesn't that mean heresy can mean, is an opinion?

Who do we find in the NT that were sects or parties with their different opinions, was it not the Pharisees and the Sadducees?

Is not Paul saying these heresies cause divisions in the Body of Christ?

Since he says there will be heresies, how will we know which to believe, heresy or Truth, how will we know what the Truth is if we don't examine it under the Light of the Word? Isa 8:20

Since I have tried to explain where I'm coming from in my bumbling way, may I please ask you what is your understanding of heresy?

Karl,

The most authoritative Greek lexicon is Arndt & Gingrich and its definition of hairesis (heresy) is 'sect, party, school (of philosophy)'; it refers to that of the Sadducees (Acts 5:17); later of an 'heretical sect'; 'dissension, a faction' (1 Cor 11:19; Gal 5:20); 'opinion, dogma, destructive opinions (2 Pt 2:1)' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:23).

Let's get back on track on which heresies of the resurrection have been taught historically and on the contemporary scene. I'll suggest a couple or three:
(1) The Sadducees because they did not believe in any resurrection;

(2) David Strauss (1808-1874) who wrote: 'We may summarily reject all miracles, prophecies, narratives of angels and demons, and the like, as simply impossible and irreconcilable with the known and universal laws which govern the course of events' (1848, Introduction to Life of Jesus Critically Examined);

(3) Rudolph Bultmann. The resurrection 'is not an event of past history.... An historical fact which involves a resurrection from the dead is utterly inconceivable' (Kerygma & Myth 1961:1.8, 39).

(4) It is certain that people in the first century believed in the resurrection '“literally”…. The tomb of Jesus was not empty, but full, and his body did not disappear, but rotted away’. They called this an ‘inevitable conclusion’ because of ‘the revolution in the scientific view of the world’ (Lüdemann & Ȫzen 2005:134-135).

(5) Currently, John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar claims that Jesus' resurrection ‘has nothing to do with a resuscitated body coming out of the tomb’. It was not human flesh that was resuscitated, but ‘bodily resurrection means that the embodied life and death of the historical Jesus continues to be experienced, by believers, as powerfully efficacious and salvifically present in this world’. That life continues, as it has done for two millennia, to form communities of like lives’ (Crossan 1999:46; 1998a:xxxi). Thus, there is no physical resurrection in the flesh, but it is a metaphorical understanding of
(a) the presence of salvation in the world that
(b) is powerfully effective, in and through
(c) the community of Christian believers.

There's plenty of controversy/heresy there to keep us discussing, debating and proclaiming our differences until kingdom come.

Oz

 

[ezrider]

I quoted it because it depicts the resurrection. I'm not sure why you think has been fulfilled. Christ is not reigning on the earth today. You quoted Jer. 23, however, it doesn't appear to me that Judah and Israel are dwelling in peace. The prophecy in Ezekiel says,

14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:14 NKJ)

I don't think what happened recorded in Mat 27 fulfills this. Those who rose in Jesus day went into the city. Israel was not given their land at that time. God promised the land to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as a possession olam. That certainly hasn't happened yet. I don't know that Israel can be placed in their land without that happening.

The prophecy says that God will bring them into their land. I'm not sure how you see that fulfilled when the Jews were under Roman occupation and subsequently removed from the land.

For context, I have stated that the prophecy from Ezekiel 37:12-14 has been fulfilled as recorded in the scriptures in Matthew 27:50-54. You disagree, stating it has not been fulfilled. Here is another witness to this prophecy, and it too has been fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ.

Zechariah 9:10-11
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow shall be cut off:
and he shall speak peace unto the heathen:
and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant
I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

 

[reba]

For me, my life was resurrected the moment I began to believe in Christ and except his gift of eternal life. I was no longer dead in my trespasses and sin.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Butch5]

For context, I have stated that the prophecy from Ezekiel 37:12-14 has been fulfilled as recorded in the scriptures in Matthew 27:50-54. You disagree, stating it has not been fulfilled. Here is another witness to this prophecy, and it too has been fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ.

Zechariah 9:10-11
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow shall be cut off:
and he shall speak peace unto the heathen:
and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant
I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

How so?

 

[ezrider]

How so?

You disagree?

Just for clarification, you do not think the prophecy from Zechariah 9:10-11 has been fulfilled?
Am I correct in that assertion?

 

[Butch5]

You disagree?

Just for clarification, you do not think the prophecy from Zechariah 9:10-11 has been fulfilled?
Am I correct in that assertion?

You didn't answer my question. You said, "Here is another witness to this prophecy, and it too has been fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ." and I asked, how so?

 

[ezrider]

You didn't answer my question. You said, "Here is another witness to this prophecy, and it too has been fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ." and I asked, how so?

Because by the blood of his covenant he has sent forth the prisoners out of the pit from where there is no water; Just as he has caused the dry bones to come together and then caused them to come up out of their graves as a sign of the power of the resurrection of Christ?

Why do you think this has not been fulfilled?

 

[Butch5]

who

Because by the blood of his covenant he has sent forth the prisoners out of the pit from where there is no water; Just as he has caused the dry bones to come together and then caused them to come up out of their graves as a sign of the power of the resurrection of Christ?

Why do you think this has not been fulfilled?

who are the prisoners and the pit with no water?

 

[jocor]

ezrider, will you be replying to my post #17?

 

[ezrider]

who

who are the prisoners and the pit with no water?

For now, I will answer with the "rich man".

Luke 16:22-24 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Tell me, what would it take in order to convince you that this scripture has already been fulfilled? If not by faith, then what evidence do you require?

 

[ezrider]

ezrider, will you be replying to my post #17?

I first want to thank you for looking in on this topic, and you are more than welcome to participate in the discussion. I liked some of the scriptures that you posted, I am sure there is some understanding to be found within them. Daniel 12:2 really stood out to me as it perfectly coincides with the scripture in John 5:28-29, so thank you for that. I am sure I will probably bring that verse into the discussion when I circle back to touch on those scriptures relative to Rev 20:5-6, but I am not going there at this moment.

As to your question on will I reply to your post #17, I will be quite frank and tell you the answer is No, I did not have any intentions of replying to your post. I would ask you to forgive me, but I am not in the habit of responding to everything that is posted. If I think it is relevant to the thoughts that I am presenting, or causes me to think about something that adds to what I am discussing, then by all mean I will respond to it. But you just posted mostly all scripture references with nothing else. I am not here to interpret the scriptures for anyone, nor give anyone a Bible lesson. I am here to share my thoughts on what I have come to see within the scriptures. I demand that no one agrees nor will I condemn anyone who disagrees with me. I only ask that you take the time to at least consider my thoughts. I have supplied ample scripture references to support the position that I am presenting. Yet no one other than Chopper has even commented on any of the verses that I have discussed in the OP.

If you feel that the scripture references that you have posted have relevance to the topic of this discussion, then by all means share with us what you think they mean, and how it relates to the scriptures I have present in my OP.

Thank you for understanding.

 

[ezrider]

I would like to thank everyone who has participated in and contributed to this thread. OzSpen has posted a fairly broad assortment of references material for anyone who wants to follow up on what they thought of the resurrection. Free has contributed to this thread more than he will ever know. Even though he does not agree with my position, it remained a cordial conversation in disagreement. Hearing how he believed it, and how he thought it to be, caused me to reach deeper in order to characterize my thoughts in a way I thought he might understand. Though in disagreement, his participation and contributions resulted in my finding the words that characterized the scriptures that I presented in my OP. The resurrection of the dead is not about the resurrection of our own glorified bodies. The resurrection of the dead as taught by Jesus is about HIS RESURRECTION and our relationship to the Lord in the Spirit of His Resurrection. Within the covenant of the Resurrection, we either hear his voice and share in the resurrected life of Christ through the Grace of God, or else we continue to serve the law of sin after the flesh within the resurrection of his death, continually casting our sins upon his sacrifice.

Again, thanks to all who have contributed to this topic thus far.

I am amazed in a way, and yet a little perplexed at the same time. I have seen posters on this site argue and debate endlessly on topics of such trivial matter. And yet relative to those topics, this topic its seems has drawn such little interest and participation, and few have commented on the scriptures and thoughts that I have presented.

Why do you think that is? After all, the RESURRECTION of CHRIST is the CORNERSTONE doctrine on which the FOUNDATION of the church has been built. I should think we would all rush to discuss this topic, yet few have come. Is it because they are afraid they might stumble against the STUMBLING STONE? Is this topic to close to your heart where you fear to let the light shine? Like the children of Israel as they stood beneath the mount and heard the voice of the Lord out of the midst of the cloud of fire? On the day when they said that was close enough for them, for they feared their death in the sight of the Lord, and so they chose to follow Moses instead. And because they choose to follow Moses or Jesus after the manner of a man, and just like the Pharisees, they too sit in the seat of Moses, judging the Word of God. Only through the resurrection of Christ can we be judged in his righteous judgement. Through his works, and none of our own. We have but one thing to do, and it begins with listening.

 

[jocor]

As to your question on will I reply to your post #17, I will be quite frank and tell you the answer is No, I did not have any intentions of replying to your post. I would ask you to forgive me, but I am not in the habit of responding to everything that is posted. If I think it is relevant to the thoughts that I am presenting, or causes me to think about something that adds to what I am discussing, then by all mean I will respond to it. But you just posted mostly all scripture references with nothing else. I am not here to interpret the scriptures for anyone, nor give anyone a Bible lesson. I am here to share my thoughts on what I have come to see within the scriptures. I demand that no one agrees nor will I condemn anyone who disagrees with me. I only ask that you take the time to at least consider my thoughts. I have supplied ample scripture references to support the position that I am presenting. Yet no one other than Chopper has even commented on any of the verses that I have discussed in the OP.

My post sited several passages that teach a literal resurrection of the dead. I bolded the important parts thinking they required no commentary. However, for your sake I will repost the passages with commentary.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

​

Job is saying that AFTER his death and after his physical body has decayed, he will see God in his flesh. How is this possible unless he is resurrected from physical death to life?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

Those that sleep in the dust are literally physically dead. They will eventually resurrect at the appointed time.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, YHWH cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
​

To "dwell in the dust" refers to physically dead people. The earth will cast them out via a literal resurrection. They will not remain covered under the earth in their graves.

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
​

The literal graves will retain their dead until a ransom is paid for them. Yeshua paid the ransom with his death. He redeemed those dead in the grave so that they will be released at the appointed time.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Yeshua will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:
​

This passage pertains to a literal resurrection from the dead. Just as Yeshua literally died and literally resurrected "even so them" which are dead will do the same.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Messiah a thousand years.​

How will saints that were beheaded, died, and were buried in graves live and reign with Messiah for a thousand years unless they are resurrected out of those graves to life?

If you feel that the scripture references that you have posted have relevance to the topic of this discussion, then by all means share with us what you think they mean, and how it relates to the scriptures I have present in my OP.

Concerning Mat 22:32, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

If Abraham is physically dead (as well as Isaac and Jacob), how will the following verse be fulfilled?

Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
​

As I see it, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are "living" in Yahweh's eyes as they "sleep" in the grave. He knows full well that He will resurrect them at the appointed time which is why He can speak of them as though they are still alive. After they resurrect unto eternal life, they will take their place in the Kingdom of Heaven forever.

 

[Butch5]

For now, I will answer with the "rich man".

Luke 16:22-24 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Tell me, what would it take in order to convince you that this scripture has already been fulfilled? If not by faith, then what evidence do you require?

I know this Scripture ha been fulfilled but what does this have to do with prisoners beings set free from a pit with no water?

 

[Chopper]

Good morning ezrider. In my devotion this morning in John Chapter twelve, I read this verse and because of your thread on Jesus is the resurrection, it gave me new thoughts.... John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

There is something about the words "Where I am, there shall also my servant be." These are my thoughts. Since I have reckoned myself to be in the resurrection of Christ Jesus, my life has changed. I am no longer attached to the earth or flesh, which produces sin because of the Law or for that matter, any law. The resurrected me in Christ obeys because it is my nature to obey just like it's my nature to obey Jesus.

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." This has been the topic of many Bible studies and posts because it has so much theology in it.... What I see in this is a resurrected Jesus living in me. If the resurrected Jesus lives in me, then I must reckon that I am resurrected with Him, we are together. Just by knowing this, there is a force within me that wants to do good and please the Lord Who resides in me.

So I want to thank you for this thread, it has opened new thinking and knowledge to me that is important.