What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[jocor]

I just noticed that you Jacor are not a Christian. Answer this one question please, why not?

I go by jocor, not Jacor. Aside from being kicked out of my Christian church for keeping the Sabbath, for me to call myself a Christian associates me with Christian doctrines that I believe are false (Sabbath is abolished or moved to Sunday, OK to eat unclean meat, keeping man-made holidays of Christmas and Easter rather than Yahweh's seven holy feast days, Torah/Law is abolished, using man-made substitutes like "the LORD" for our Heavenly Father's name, using an erroneous name (Jesus) for our Savior, exalting the Messiah as our God and Creator when his Father Yahweh alone is such, etc. I prefer to be called an Israelite as Yeshua was and as we all should be now that we are grafted onto the natural olive tree of Israel.

 

[Free]

1 Cor 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will again here note that the entire passage of 1 Cor 15 is speaking of the final bodily resurrection.

This brings us back to the first point that I made concerning the resurrection, and that there is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to death (John 5:28-29). Jesus is the resurrection, and for this end Christ both died and rose again that he might be Lord of the both the dead and the living. Through his resurrection, he is now Lord both to those who still serve obedience to sin under the law and remain spiritually dead under the resurrection of damnation, as well as those living according to Faith by Grace under the new covenant with out the law under the resurrection of life.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

What John 5:28-29 are referring to is echoed in Matt 25:31-46:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (ESV)

These passages are clearly speaking of a resurrection that will occur when Jesus returns at the consummation of all things. This idea is supported throughout the entirety of Scripture.

In an attempt to bring some clarity: Do you believe or deny that there will be a bodily resurrection at the end of the age? Or do you believe that there is only a spiritual resurrection that occurs now (if I have understood your posts correctly)? Or do you believe both?

 

[Chopper]

I'm sure that ezrider will respond to your post. I thought I'd jump in to say that ezrider is not teaching that there is not going to be a resurrection of the dead. There will be a final resurrection at the end of life here on earth. A resurrection for those who have put their trust in Jesus, and a resurrection of the lost to be forever separated from the Lord in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Chopper]

I go by jocor, not Jacor. Aside from being kicked out of my Christian church for keeping the Sabbath, for me to call myself a Christian associates me with Christian doctrines that I believe are false (Sabbath is abolished or moved to Sunday, OK to eat unclean meat, keeping man-made holidays of Christmas and Easter rather than Yahweh's seven holy feast days, Torah/Law is abolished, using man-made substitutes like "the LORD" for our Heavenly Father's name, using an erroneous name (Jesus) for our Savior, exalting the Messiah as our God and Creator when his Father Yahweh alone is such, etc. I prefer to be called an Israelite as Yeshua was and as we all should be now that we are grafted onto the natural olive tree of Israel.

I apologize for misspelling your name Jocor. Thank you for answering my question. If you please, would you comment on Paul's teaching in Romans 14:1-6. Especially Vs. 5 & 6 as it has to do with you insisting upon the Rest Day being Saturday rather than Sunday. I see the Apostle asking you this question that is V. 4.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[Butch5]

If you would actually answer the question that I asked you, then I might be more incline to respond to these question. But how am I to respond, if you can not first tell me what it will take for you to believe? And I can rest assuredly, that my answer to your question will not satisfy you to the way that you believe, because you too are looking at this as the resurrection at the last day, instead of how we exist within the Resurrection of Christ in our relationship to the Lord himself.

So one last time, what will it take to make you believe?

It appears to me that you're alegorizing these passages. I see no reason to do so. The passage from Mathew speaks of saints coming out of their graves, the passage from Ezekiel speaks of Israel coming out of their graves and going into their land.

You keep asking what it will take for me to believe. It will take an logical Biblically based argument showing the connection.

 

[ezrider]

I'm sure that ezrider will respond to your post. I thought I'd jump in to say that ezrider is not teaching that there is not going to be a resurrection of the dead. There will be a final resurrection at the end of life here on earth. A resurrection for those who have put their trust in Jesus, and a resurrection of the lost to be forever separated from the Lord in the Lake of Fire.

Thank you Chopper, you are correct. The only difference being, that by Faith I have taken hold of the promises of God and count myself as having been already resurrected in Christ, and while the final resurrection at the last day is something that preoccupies the mind of our flesh, I count it a joy to Glory in the Grace of God for the moment that stands before me. Watching the work of the Lord within me, while he finishes his work making the fulness of God known within my being.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you Chopper, you are correct. The only difference being, that by Faith I have taken hold of the promises of God and count myself as having been already resurrected in Christ, and while the final resurrection at the last day is something that preoccupies the mind of our flesh, I count it a joy to Glory in the Grace of God for the moment that stands before me. Watching the work of the Lord within me, while he finishes his work making the fulness of God known within my being.

Very good. I like the way you said that.

 

[ezrider]

It appears to me that you're alegorizing these passages. I see no reason to do so. The passage from Mathew speaks of saints coming out of their graves, the passage from Ezekiel speaks of Israel coming out of their graves and going into their land.

You keep asking what it will take for me to believe. It will take an logical Biblically based argument showing the connection.

Whats wrong with allegory? After all, most all of the characterizations of the kingdom of Heaven were taught using allegories and parables. My use of allegory is intended to use the things that we can relate to in the natural world that I might characterize that for which I have come to understand in the Spirit.

Before I go any further with you, I must apologize to you because I set you up. Because of the nature of our conversation in discussing certain prophetical fulfillment, I set a trap to see if you would walk into, and surely enough you have. It was my guess that you were so dead set in not wanting to see how those scripture might be fulfilled, that you were probably unwilling to even look for yourself at the scripture references of the prophecy I said had been fulfilled. I gave you one scripture from Matt 27:50-54 as a biblical reference confirming its fulfillment, but that one requires faith before you can see it. And so I asked you if you do not believe the words in your own bible, what would it take for you to believe in its fulfillment.

Again, please forgive me. It was an exercise in predicting human nature. Your participation in this thread has significantly helped me in understanding the revelation that I am sharing with you throughout this thread. Again, thank you very much for your participation in this subject.

Matthew 21:1-5

 

[ezrider]

Mat 22:23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question,
Mat 22:24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up children for his brother.'
Mat 22:25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother.
Mat 22:26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh.
Mat 22:27 After them all, the woman died.
Mat 22:28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her."
Mat 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." (ESV)

First we need to understand what the Sadducees are doing. They did not believe in the resurrection, as verse 23 states. So why did they bother coming to Jesus with this story? It seems clear that they are trying to show Jesus how absurd the idea is of the resurrection of the body. For this they appeal to the authority of the Law--"Moses said"--in Deut. 25:5-6. And then, to make their point, all that was needed were two husbands but they continued to seven husbands, which serves to prove the point that they were merely trying to show the absurdity of bodily resurrection.

Now we have the information necessary to understand Jesus' reply. When he says, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God," he is referring to the facts that the Law in Deut. 25:5-6 applies only to the living, not the afterlife, and that the OT teaches in various places about the bodily resurrection of the dead. Hence, they did not know the Scriptures. Also, in denying the power of God, they not only deny God's ability to resurrect the dead, they deny that his power can change the resurrection body in such a way that marriage is no longer necessary. And that is what verse 30 is saying--"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

It is also very important here to note what Jesus isn't saying. He isn't saying there is no resurrection of the dead or that the resurrection means something different than what the Pharisees believe (what the Pharisees believe on the matter isn't even implied here), which is made clear by his words, "For in the resurrection." Jesus is supporting his assertion that the Sadducees do not know the power of God because God will, at the resurrection, change the bodies of the former dead so that "they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

As for verses 31 and 32, Jesus is implying that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still living and awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

And all that is supported by Acts 23:8, "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all" (ESV). Jesus has just shown the Sadducees to be wrong on all counts.

As for evidence that the OT teaches a bodily resurrection, to prove that Jesus is not denying a bodily resurrection but showing the Sadducees that they do not know the Scriptures, I submit the following (all from ESV):

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,
Job 19:27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

Psa 17:15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

Isa 26:19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

There are others, including Eze. 27:1-14, but that should suffice.


You are ignoring the context.

Joh 11:21 Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
Joh 11:22 But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you."
Joh 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (ESV)

In verse 22 Martha hints that even though her brother is dead, Jesus could raise him again by asking God. Jesus then tells her what was going to soon happen, that Lazarus was indeed going to be raised from the dead. Martha mistakes Jesus' statement as referring to the final resurrection of all the dead. This supports everything given in this post thus far, that many Jews, based on Scripture, believed in the bodily resurrection of the dead at the consummation of all things.

Jesus' response to that, in verse 25, in no way whatsoever denies this reality--of the bodily resurrection on the last day. If it did, he would be contradicting the OT. Jesus is saying that he is "the resurrection and the life" in person. Apart from him there is no resurrection, no life. He is saying this to hint to Martha that he could raise Lazarus of his own accord. Jesus is not correcting Martha's belief "in the resurrection on the last day."

Simply put, there is absolutely nothing in what Jesus says here that denies or otherwise proves false a final bodily resurrection of the dead.

Free, thank you for addressing the scriptures that I posted as the foundation of my OP. I feel that these verses are very important and extremely significant to our establishing the foundation of our understanding of the way that Jesus wanted us to see resurrection. But you made a fatal flaw in your characterization of these scriptures, and I truly wonder why that is. Is it within our own human nature that we almost seemingly reject the word of God out of hand, imparting our own meaning into the scripture? Or do we automatically look for something wrong, looking for some point of contention? I don't know, but in saying this I am pointing out that with your own words, you transposed the meaning of the word error into something false. These scriptures, and the commentary that I have applied to them never implied that there was no final resurrection on the last day. Only that they did not understand the resurrection of the dead correctly.

I explained in my OP that the scripture stated plainly that the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection. Martha clearly believe in a resurrection at the last day. I also stated that the scripture say the Pharisees did believe in a resurrection, yet I do not know what they believed. Although it would be my guess that when the Sadducees, who did not believe in a resurrection, challenged Jesus with the women with the seven husbands because they were most likely mocking the beliefs of the Pharisees. That is why when discussing this, I was extremely careful to only say the way that the Sadducees characterized the resurrection. I never imparted any belief to them, knowing that the scripture says they did not believe in a resurrection.

I brought with me into this thread only one presupposition, and that was that Jesus said unto me that I did not understand the resurrection as I should, because I did not know the scriptures or the power of God as I should. This started as a conversation. If I hold this one most important of doctrine of my salvation in error, then how can I trust to my salvation that depends upon it. If I am to believe the error of my understanding, then please Lord reveal unto me the truth of it, show me what you want me to see and I will believe. I can not explain to you any more than this, and that is to say that this has been a progressive revelation that has only revealed itself through the expression of thought, not the study or interpretation of the Bible. The revelation that has been given to me, I have given to you. What I have seen have I showed unto you. There is nothing more that I can do, belief and Faith is up to you.

Again, thank you for your participation in this thread. Your comments have been valuable in the process of this revelation. I should hope you might try to re-examine the words that I have shared throughout this thread, and instead of trying to see this as a Bible lesson or some private interpretation of scripture, please take this as it is. My testimony of Christ, and revelation of His Spirit with my heart. If you doubt, then be as the Bereans, and search the scripture to so if it is not so.

 

[ezrider]

These passages are clearly speaking of a resurrection that will occur when Jesus returns at the consummation of all things. This idea is supported throughout the entirety of Scripture.

In an attempt to bring some clarity: Do you believe or deny that there will be a bodily resurrection at the end of the age? Or do you believe that there is only a spiritual resurrection that occurs now (if I have understood your posts correctly)? Or do you believe both?

Free, I am not sure as to why you would be asking me this question at this point other than to assume that you have not taken the time to read my other posts and responses. Maybe you are only interested in my responses to you because you wish to debate the interpretation of of specific scriptures. But you will never hear what I have said unless you take the time to read all of my posts and responses. They describe for you the vision of my journey of the revelation of Christ who lives within me. I am not teaching you scripture. I am giving you the Word of God as it speaks to me from within my heart.

If you wish to read the answer to your question, then please see my response to jocor in post # 57. You might also want to read my response to him in post #53 as well. You will find your answer there.

2 Corinthians 3:3-6 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
And such trust have we through Christ to God- ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

 

[jocor]

I apologize for misspelling your name Jocor. Thank you for answering my question. If you please, would you comment on Paul's teaching in Romans 14:1-6. Especially Vs. 5 & 6 as it has to do with you insisting upon the Rest Day being Saturday rather than Sunday. I see the Apostle asking you this question that is V. 4.

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

I do not want to derail this thread. I recently commented on that passage in post #28 here.

 

[Butch5]

Whats wrong with allegory? After all, most all of the characterizations of the kingdom of Heaven were taught using allegories and parables. My use of allegory is intended to use the things that we can relate to in the natural world that I might characterize that for which I have come to understand in the Spirit.

Before I go any further with you, I must apologize to you because I set you up. Because of the nature of our conversation in discussing certain prophetical fulfillment, I set a trap to see if you would walk into, and surely enough you have. It was my guess that you were so dead set in not wanting to see how those scripture might be fulfilled, that you were probably unwilling to even look for yourself at the scripture references of the prophecy I said had been fulfilled. I gave you one scripture from Matt 27:50-54 as a biblical reference confirming its fulfillment, but that one requires faith before you can see it. And so I asked you if you do not believe the words in your own bible, what would it take for you to believe in its fulfillment.

Again, please forgive me. It was an exercise in predicting human nature. Your participation in this thread has significantly helped me in understanding the revelation that I am sharing with you throughout this thread. Again, thank you very much for your participation in this subject.

Matthew 21:1-5

No apologies are necessary, however, I don't see how I have walked into any trap. I am not dead set against seeing how those prophecies might have been fulfilled. However, I do need evidence before I will simply accept that they have been. As I said, I don't see a connection between the passage in Mathew and the passage in Ezekiel. I see that they are speaking of two different groups of people.

You asked what's wrong with allegory? One problem is that it is open to interpretation. Yes, Jesus used allegory, however, the difference is that He knew that absolute truth. Additionally, some of the allegory was given specifically so that the Jews would not understand. Take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Most Christians that I have dealt with believe this is about the afterlife, yet it was spoken to Pharisees.

 

[ezrider]

No apologies are necessary, however, I don't see how I have walked into any trap. I am not dead set against seeing how those prophecies might have been fulfilled. However, I do need evidence before I will simply accept that they have been. As I said, I don't see a connection between the passage in Mathew and the passage in Ezekiel. I see that they are speaking of two different groups of people.

You asked what's wrong with allegory? One problem is that it is open to interpretation. Yes, Jesus used allegory, however, the difference is that He knew that absolute truth. Additionally, some of the allegory was given specifically so that the Jews would not understand. Take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Most Christians that I have dealt with believe this is about the afterlife, yet it was spoken to Pharisees.

Thank you Butch5. I am not asking you to believe as I do, nor am I trying to force you to see it as I do. The only thing I am asking is that you at least give what I have said a fair assessment and at least a little consideration. I believe that you have done that. I do not sense that you have just rejected my notion out of hand, and that is fair enough for me. Stick around, and maybe something will speak to you and then suddenly it all makes sense. I understand the you were not as concerned about the fulfillment of those prophecies as you were about the connection to those coming up out of the graves. I truly do not have those answers for you at this time. Maybe as this discussion goes on and enough people remain interested and can participate with an honest and open discussion, then I am hopeful that by the Spirit of the Lord, he will reveal these things to us. We just require a little faith. But we do not want to put the cart before the horse. We can't learn anything about those in the grave until we first lay the foundation of what Christ wanted us to know concerning his resurrection.

Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on the scriptures and the premise that I have set forth in the OP on this subject of the resurrection, I would like to hear them.

You also in one or two of your posts asked if this has been fulfilled then how did they inherit the land. I have seen this as being fulfilled in conjunction with the new covenant promises. As I stated in my OP, I can not help but see a strong correlation between the Resurrection of Christ and the new covenant promises. I started a Study on the two covenants last fall, perhaps you might look through that thread and see if it might help to explain some of the things that we have touched on here.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/two-covenants-the-old-and-new.55735/

 

[Butch5]

Thank you Butch5. I am not asking you to believe as I do, nor am I trying to force you to see it as I do. The only thing I am asking is that you at least give what I have said a fair assessment and at least a little consideration. I believe that you have done that. I do not sense that you have just rejected my notion out of hand, and that is fair enough for me. Stick around, and maybe something will speak to you and then suddenly it all makes sense. I understand the you were not as concerned about the fulfillment of those prophecies as you were about the connection to those coming up out of the graves. I truly do not have those answers for you at this time. Maybe as this discussion goes on and enough people remain interested and can participate with an honest and open discussion, then I am hopeful that by the Spirit of the Lord, he will reveal these things to us. We just require a little faith. But we do not want to put the cart before the horse. We can't learn anything about those in the grave until we first lay the foundation of what Christ wanted us to know concerning his resurrection.

Perhaps you might offer your thoughts on the scriptures and the premise that I have set forth in the OP on this subject of the resurrection, I would like to hear them.

You also in one or two of your posts asked if this has been fulfilled then how did they inherit the land. I have seen this as being fulfilled in conjunction with the new covenant promises. As I stated in my OP, I can not help but see a strong correlation between the Resurrection of Christ and the new covenant promises. I started a Study on the two covenants last fall, perhaps you might look through that thread and see if it might help to explain some of the things that we have touched on here.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/two-covenants-the-old-and-new.55735/

Sure, I think we have fundamental differences in out approach. You spoke of spiritual death, I don't believe there is such a thing, at least that would pertain to people.

You also quoted the passage that speaks of Jesus being the Lord of the living and the dead and applied it to those who are spiritually alive and spiritually dead. Have you considered that it could be understood another way? It could be understood in a physical manner, Jesus is the Lord of those who are presently alive and those who have died, He's the Lord of all.

You said,

From these passages and from Acts 23:8 we are told that the Sadducees say there is no resurrection, but the Pharisees did believe in a resurrection. As to what the Pharisees actually believed I do not know, but the line of questioning the Sadducees are applying here tends toward the belief in a physical bodily resurrection where they will once again pick up their lives in heaven.

I submit that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection but rather were simply allowing the point for argument sake. This was apparently a point of contention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees and it appears the Sadducees thought they had trapped the Pharisees with this question. If there is a resurrection then this scenario would present a problem with the Law of Moses. Since Jesus agreed with the Pharisees that there was indeed a resurrection the Sadducees present the conundrum to Jesus hoping to trap Him. However, Jesus points out that they simply don't understand the Scriptures.

 

[ezrider]

Sure, I think we have fundamental differences in out approach. You spoke of spiritual death, I don't believe there is such a thing, at least that would pertain to people.

You also quoted the passage that speaks of Jesus being the Lord of the living and the dead and applied it to those who are spiritually alive and spiritually dead. Have you considered that it could be understood another way? It could be understood in a physical manner, Jesus is the Lord of those who are presently alive and those who have died, He's the Lord of all.

Of course I have considered the physical manner. I have considered the physical resurrection since the days of my youth when I first experienced death of those close to me. The physical resurrection is the resurrection at the Last Day. But that is not the resurrection that is the main focus of this thread. The focus of this thread is the RESURRECTION of CHRIST, and what HIS RESURRECTION provides for us. This is the Spiritual Resurrection that I speak of, it is our present relationship to the Lord through the power of his resurrection.

I think it is fair to say that most people believe that we are made of body, soul, and spirit. The things of the flesh mind the things of the flesh, and the things of the spirit those that are of the spirit. The natural mind of the flesh looks to his own resurrection at the Last day and only sees things in the manner of his flesh. But life and death of the Spirit within us is given unto Christ to by the power of his Resurrection. As Karl pointed out in one of his posts, one of the meanings from the Greek word for resurrection is a restoration of Spiritual Truth.

When I was young, I was full of life and spirit, full of wonder and curiosity. I believed there was something far greater than ourselves, only knowing of the idea of an almighty God. I felt alive and blessed, without a care in the world. Then one day someone told me about Jesus, and that because I was born a sinner, my only way to the promised afterlife was if I made him my Lord and savior, for he died for me and payed for my sins. All I had to do was believe. So with my own penchant to curiosity, I was like tell me more. But the only answer I would get is go read the Bible, it is the word of God and by this book of knowledge we can learn all we need to know about God. In the process I learned what is sin and how that displeased God, and so I set out to try and live by that knowledge and obey what God had said, only to find that I was still a sinner, and there was nothing I could do to seemingly please this God who demanded so much, and in my discouragement, I walked away to see if I could find the joy in my life that I had in my youth, living without a care. But I could find no rest, and yet something kept pulling at me. But in my shame and the knowledge of my sin, I stayed away, choosing rather to find the life I once enjoyed. But that no longer satisfied me either, and I still thirsted for knowledge. When I finally came to accept the knowledge of repentance through the death and resurrection of Jesus, I found a peace believing that I am forgiven, and a simple faith that I would be raised at the last day at his coming if I believed in his name. And so whenever I sinned, I would confess it and lay it to the blood of Christ and his sacrifice upon the cross. I confessed myself as being in Christ, and yet was I still dead in my sins or else I would not be sinning. I was still dead in my sins, yet by my faith in Christ's sacrifice, I was waiting upon the hope of my resurrection, still separated and apart from God waiting upon his return, yet full of faith believing through Jesus that I was now in the presence of God, though still as yet apart.

But the promise of Jesus was that by his death and resurrection, he would come unto them again by sending forth his spirit to come dwell inside us and that we would become a new living creature, created in the image of his resurrection. The restoration of the Spiritual Truth that the Spirit of the Lord has come into our body and has made his temple there, while the work of the Holy Spirit forms the union between his spirit and our own. No longer separated and alone, no longer apart and cut off, restless and thirsty for knowledge. I have entered into his resurrection, I am at peace within his grace, I am at rest because I have ceased of my own works, and I thirst no more, for by the fountain of life that sustains me, my cup runneth over. And so I ask myself. If I waited for the physical return of Christ to stand in his presence, would I stand as one apart from him? How much closer can I get than the union of his spirit and the knowledge of the fulness of God revealed within me?

I submit that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection but rather were simply allowing the point for argument sake. This was apparently a point of contention between the Pharisees and the Sadducees and it appears the Sadducees thought they had trapped the Pharisees with this question. If there is a resurrection then this scenario would present a problem with the Law of Moses. Since Jesus agreed with the Pharisees that there was indeed a resurrection the Sadducees present the conundrum to Jesus hoping to trap Him. However, Jesus points out that they simply don't understand the Scriptures.

I completely agree with this assessment. I did not quite have the words for it at the time, but eventually realized that the Sadducees might have been mocking the Pharisees. But I like better the way that you characterize it. That they were attempting to trap the Pharisees over a point about the Law. But either way, that does not change the significance of the response that Jesus gave to them. What they did not understand about the scriptures was their covenant relationship to God, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If we live under the law we are dead because of sin and live apart from God in the presence of Christ, but if we accept his grace and live apart from the law, then by Faith, the presence of his living Spirit is revealed within our mind, that we may be joined into him. And when the fulness of God shall be revealed within you, then shall you be in the Lord, And the Lord shall be in you, and the two shall become one flesh.

Who is antichrist? He who denies that Jesus has come into our flesh.

 

[ezra]

For me, my life was resurrected the moment I began to believe in Christ and except his gift of eternal life. I was no longer dead in my trespasses and sin.

 

[ezra]

this sums it up 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, b how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? c then is Christ not risen: d that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. eye are yet in your sins. 18


{And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; eye are yet in your sins. } so why would a person need greek theology to understand the resurrection and the resurrection power we have. chopper made a good point on Galatians 2:20 crucified with Christ and resurrected to a new creation with Christ . sort of like 1& 1 = 2

 

[ezrider]

Butch5, a thought just occurred to me and so I will pass it along. We have discussed Eze 37 and Zech 9 in conjunction with the people in the graves, the dry place in which there is no water. We also discussed the rich man who begged for just a drop of water. So what did Jesus really mean when he hung upon the cross and uttered the words "I Thirst?" And then they gave him vinegar mixed with gall, and he tasted it, yet he would not drink of it?

 

[Butch5]

Of course I have considered the physical manner. I have considered the physical resurrection since the days of my youth when I first experienced death of those close to me. The physical resurrection is the resurrection at the Last Day. But that is not the resurrection that is the main focus of this thread. The focus of this thread is the RESURRECTION of CHRIST, and what HIS RESURRECTION provides for us. This is the Spiritual Resurrection that I speak of, it is our present relationship to the Lord through the power of his resurrection.

I think it is fair to say that most people believe that we are made of body, soul, and spirit. The things of the flesh mind the things of the flesh, and the things of the spirit those that are of the spirit. The natural mind of the flesh looks to his own resurrection at the Last day and only sees things in the manner of his flesh. But life and death of the Spirit within us is given unto Christ to by the power of his Resurrection. As Karl pointed out in one of his posts, one of the meanings from the Greek word for resurrection is a restoration of Spiritual Truth.

When I was young, I was full of life and spirit, full of wonder and curiosity. I believed there was something far greater than ourselves, only knowing of the idea of an almighty God. I felt alive and blessed, without a care in the world. Then one day someone told me about Jesus, and that because I was born a sinner, my only way to the promised afterlife was if I made him my Lord and savior, for he died for me and payed for my sins. All I had to do was believe. So with my own penchant to curiosity, I was like tell me more. But the only answer I would get is go read the Bible, it is the word of God and by this book of knowledge we can learn all we need to know about God. In the process I learned what is sin and how that displeased God, and so I set out to try and live by that knowledge and obey what God had said, only to find that I was still a sinner, and there was nothing I could do to seemingly please this God who demanded so much, and in my discouragement, I walked away to see if I could find the joy in my life that I had in my youth, living without a care. But I could find no rest, and yet something kept pulling at me. But in my shame and the knowledge of my sin, I stayed away, choosing rather to find the life I once enjoyed. But that no longer satisfied me either, and I still thirsted for knowledge. When I finally came to accept the knowledge of repentance through the death and resurrection of Jesus, I found a peace believing that I am forgiven, and a simple faith that I would be raised at the last day at his coming if I believed in his name. And so whenever I sinned, I would confess it and lay it to the blood of Christ and his sacrifice upon the cross. I confessed myself as being in Christ, and yet was I still dead in my sins or else I would not be sinning. I was still dead in my sins, yet by my faith in Christ's sacrifice, I was waiting upon the hope of my resurrection, still separated and apart from God waiting upon his return, yet full of faith believing through Jesus that I was now in the presence of God, though still as yet apart.

But the promise of Jesus was that by his death and resurrection, he would come unto them again by sending forth his spirit to come dwell inside us and that we would become a new living creature, created in the image of his resurrection. The restoration of the Spiritual Truth that the Spirit of the Lord has come into our body and has made his temple there, while the work of the Holy Spirit forms the union between his spirit and our own. No longer separated and alone, no longer apart and cut off, restless and thirsty for knowledge. I have entered into his resurrection, I am at peace within his grace, I am at rest because I have ceased of my own works, and I thirst no more, for by the fountain of life that sustains me, my cup runneth over. And so I ask myself. If I waited for the physical return of Christ to stand in his presence, would I stand as one apart from him? How much closer can I get than the union of his spirit and the knowledge of the fulness of God revealed within me?



I completely agree with this assessment. I did not quite have the words for it at the time, but eventually realized that the Sadducees might have been mocking the Pharisees. But I like better the way that you characterize it. That they were attempting to trap the Pharisees over a point about the Law. But either way, that does not change the significance of the response that Jesus gave to them. What they did not understand about the scriptures was their covenant relationship to God, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If we live under the law we are dead because of sin and live apart from God in the presence of Christ, but if we accept his grace and live apart from the law, then by Faith, the presence of his living Spirit is revealed within our mind, that we may be joined into him. And when the fulness of God shall be revealed within you, then shall you be in the Lord, And the Lord shall be in you, and the two shall become one flesh.

Who is antichrist? He who denies that Jesus has come into our flesh.

It seems we have some fundamental differences in our approach to the Scriptures. I take them literally unless there is an obvious reason to take them figuratively. As such I don't believe that man is made of, body, soul, and spirit. I believe, per Gen 2:7 that God made man from the dust and breathed into him God's breath of life and man became a living soul. From this I determine that a living soul consists of a a body and the breath/spirit of God. As I see it the spirit in man is God's, not man's. It's recorded in Job,

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

If God retrieved His Neshamah and His Ruach, all flesh would die. It is the Neshamah of life that God breathed into Adam. I don't see anything that would suggest that man is or has a spirit, other than the Neshamah of God.

Also, you said, "if we live under the Law." I'm not sure exactly what you mean. The Law was given to Israel as a tutor until Christ would come. As I see it this has nothing to do with "us" today as it is not possible for us to live under the Law since there is no temple, and as I said, the Law was given to Israel.

If by law, you mean living by a set of commands, I disagree as Jesus say those who do not keep His commands don't love Him.

24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. (Joh 14:24 NKJ)

So, when you speak of the spiritual aspect of the resurrection, I'm don't see what you're referring to as I don't see that in man.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, a thought just occurred to me and so I will pass it along. We have discussed Eze 37 and Zech 9 in conjunction with the people in the graves, the dry place in which there is no water. We also discussed the rich man who begged for just a drop of water. So what did Jesus really mean when he hung upon the cross and uttered the words "I Thirst?" And then they gave him vinegar mixed with gall, and he tasted it, yet he would not drink of it?

I think Jesus was pointing them to Psalm 69. The Pharisees should have seen this being fulfilled before their eyes.

I don't think that rich man in thirst has anything to do with Christ. I believe the rich man is the priesthood.