eretz y'israel

[jasonc]

Israel what is it in prophecy? the title means in Hebrew. Land of Israel.

 

[Eugene]

Hi Brother jasonc, I've always thought Israel was used in different contexts such as Strong's shows below. I do believe it doesn't refer to Palestine.

I. Israel = "he shall be a prince of God"
A. the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in addition to his former name)
B. the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
C. Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation

Mt 2:6 . . . my people Israel.
Mt 2:20 . . the land of Israel:
Mt 10:6 . . the house of Israel.

 

[jasonc]

Hi Brother jasonc, I've always thought Israel was used in different contexts such as Strong's shows below. I do believe it doesn't refer to Palestine.

I. Israel = "he shall be a prince of God"
A. the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in addition to his former name)
B. the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
C. Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation

Mt 2:6 . . . my people Israel.
Mt 2:20 . . the land of Israel:
Mt 10:6 . . the house of Israel.

ok so it didn't refer to the land then why is it taught that is such? a massive jewish revival with the Lord reigning from that location isn't what you believe?

 

[Eugene]

ok so it didn't refer to the land then why is it taught that is such? a massive jewish revival with the Lord reigning from that location isn't what you believe?

I'm not sure what you are asking; I really haven't studied anything of Jewish revivals.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure what you are asking; I really haven't studied anything of Jewish revivals.

why do you believe that modern isreal is in prophecy and that jesus will reign from Jerusalem and that the 144,000 are yet to be sealed?

 

[Malachi]

why do you believe that modern isreal is in prophecy and that jesus will reign from Jerusalem and that the 144,000 are yet to be sealed?

Jason,

Today the Church is the spiritual "Israel of God" but God is not through with His promises to Abraham. God made a Covenant with Abraham, in which He gave the land of Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates) to the physical descendants of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to "Israel" (a prince with God) and Jacob prophesied about the 12 tribes (springing from his 12 sons) before He died.

When the nation of Israel rejected Messiah, God's direct dealings with Israel came to a temporary hiatus (Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D.), during which Jew and Gentile (without any distinction) would form the Church. There is a specfic number of the unsaved which will gathered into the Church, following which the Church will be "raptured" (caught up into Heaven).

After that God will resume His direct dealings with Israel, and ultimately Christ will redeem and restore "all Israel" and establish His Kingdom on this earth. The 144,000 are representative of "all Israel" and are yet to be sealed. You will notice that they do not remain on earth ("redeemed from the earth") but sing before the throne of God in Heaven (Rev 14:2,3).

Why do we believe that modern Israel will be subject to God's direct dealings? Because they are already in the Land of Promise, and Jerusalem and Israel feature significantly in all Bible prophecies.

 

[Eugene]

why do you believe that modern isreal is in prophecy and that jesus will reign from Jerusalem and that the 144,000 are yet to be sealed?

I personally believe Jesus will not rule from the earthly Jerusalem, but once receiving His own throne in Rev 4:2 which is in heaven, later seen as the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:2. You ask why I believe the 144,000 are yet to be sealed, and I answer that since everything from Rev 4:1 is things which must be hereafter, and that includes the sealing. On that precept, we must establish the time of the Lord's Day that John was present on that we we read of in Rev 1:10.

From that point of time of the Lord's Day, in Rev 1:19 Jesus tells John to write of three viewpoints Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Today the Church is the spiritual "Israel of God" but God is not through with His promises to Abraham. God made a Covenant with Abraham, in which He gave the land of Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates) to the physical descendants of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to "Israel" (a prince with God) and Jacob prophesied about the 12 tribes (springing from his 12 sons) before He died.

When the nation of Israel rejected Messiah, God's direct dealings with Israel came to a temporary hiatus (Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D.), during which Jew and Gentile (without any distinction) would form the Church. There is a specfic number of the unsaved which will gathered into the Church, following which the Church will be "raptured" (caught up into Heaven).

After that God will resume His direct dealings with Israel, and ultimately Christ will redeem and restore "all Israel" and establish His Kingdom on this earth. The 144,000 are representative of "all Israel" and are yet to be sealed. You will notice that they do not remain on earth ("redeemed from the earth") but sing before the throne of God in Heaven (Rev 14:2,3).
Why do we believe that modern Israel will be subject to God's direct dealings? Because they are already in the Land of Promise, and Jerusalem and Israel feature significantly in all Bible prophecies.

uhm what is the function of levy and also whom was james written to?

land the was fulfilled and it was a conditional promise. they never conquered all of it. why? because they refused to be observiant to the torah and yet god never said he would later on give them all of it. david in conquest took the river eupharates. they had control of it and the nations they had did pay tribute on both david and Solomon.

my biggest problem with that is that modern isreal doesn't fit this at all. there are arabs that are in large number there and well god would just ignore my kin or the large mass of jewry that has at present no intention moving back to isreal. that and the lord said he would bring them back if they did the law. isreal isn't a theocracy and was founded on a secular atheist jews ideas of land laws, marriage and how they treat the arabs.he didn't even want to allow jews to practice there faith because he hated Judaism. he was also communist/socialist in leanings.

that said, what is the difference if the Hebrews tell me today I need jesus and the holy spirit must be in me to be saved? and also the same is in the millennium.

 

[Malachi]

uhm what is the function of levy and also whom was james written to?

Jason,

This post has been accidentally triplicated by you. You could delete two of them. The "function of Levi" was to be the ancestor of the priests and Levites, who did not receive a separate portion of the land, but were assigned lands within the other tribes. James wrote to the Jews "scattered abroad" (those who had not returned to Israel after they were taken to other lands).

land the was fulfilled and it was a conditional promise

Not a conditional promise at all. Please see Gen 17:8.

my biggest problem with that is that modern isreal doesn't fit this at all

That's because God is presently not dealing with Israel as a nation. This is the Church Age, where God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile. After the Church is "caught up" to Heaven, God will resume His dealings with Israel as a nation.

that said, what is the difference if the Hebrews tell me today I need jesus and the holy spirit must be in me to be saved? and also the same is in the millennium.

Today, the Hebrews who are saved are gathered into the Body of Christ, the Church. During the Millenium, the Church is already "the wife of the Lamb" in Heaven, but Israel will be on earth, and Hebrews will be regenerated and remain on earth, along with other saved nations.

 

[Eugene]

During the Millennium, the Church is already "the wife of the Lamb" in Heaven.

Dear Brother Malachi, do you have scriptural evidence that the whole church will be the bride, if indeed that is what you're saying? Thanks.

 

[Malachi]

Dear Brother Eugene,

I believe this truth is presented in Ephesians 1:22,23; 2:11-22; 3:8-21; 4:12-16; 5:23-33. The Church (all the redeemed of the Lord, both Jew and Gentile) is presented by Paul in Ephesians as (a) the Body of Christ, (b) the Building of Christ, and (c) the Bride of Christ. As one goes through these extensive passages the truth come out clearly. There are certainly other passages of Scripture, but these in themselves should be sufficient. In Ephesians 5 (where the Church is presented as the wife of Christ) we read:
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother Malachi, I would first inform you that I am of OSAS persuasion, and as such do not believe our walk dictates our standing in Christ, but that it pertains to our state. With that in mind I read below:
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Next I submit Rom 8:17 that all Christians are heirs of God, but they become joint-heirs with Christ If so be that they suffer, or endure with Him, and 2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. To me this is showing conditions to having that special place as bride; I do not believe there will be children wed to Jesus

Should we believe that certain of the bride of Christ will suffer great tribulation,
Rev 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, . .
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. These of the church sure do not appear as the bridal company that will reign with Christ as Kings and priests of Rev 5:10.

One last thought is that presented as a type of Christ's bride in Genesis Chapter Twenty-four as Abraham instructs his eldest servant Eliezer in Gen 24:4, But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac. The bride represented in type by Rebekah was not the total of Abraham's kindred, but that select one.

Thanks again in Christ Jesus.

 

[Malachi]

Dear Brother Malachi, I would first inform you that I am of OSAS persuasion, and as such do not believe our walk dictates our standing in Christ, but that it pertains to our state.

Brother, it is our position in Christ which is at issue, and as you would have noted in all the Ephesian passages, there is no possiblity for the true Church becoming fragmented -- one Body, one Building, one Bride is the clear teaching, regardless of everything else.

With that in mind I read below:
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

A plain reading of this passage informs us that Paul was fearful about apostasy in the church. He did not actually say that they had already apostatized. But we know from church history, that the New Testament churches began to be corrupted by Gnosticism even while the apostles were alive. Those who embraced Gnosticism could not possibly be within the Body of Christ, because they had "another Jesus".

Next I submit Rom 8:17 that all Christians are heirs of God, but they become joint-heirs with Christ If so be that they suffer, or endure with Him, and 2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him.

Yes, there is this condition of suffering with Christ, but as already discussed, all true believers are suffering with Him in one form or another. The more relevant truth is that we all are "bone of His bone, and flesh of His flesh" (Eph 5:30). Is it possible that Christ will tear off some of his bones and sinews? No, the integrity of the true Body of Christ will never be fragmented.

Should we believe that certain of the bride of Christ will suffer great tribulation,
Rev 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, . .
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. These of the church sure do not appear as the bridal company that will reign with Christ as Kings and priests of Rev 5:10.

While the word "Church" does not appear in Rev 5:9,10, it is quite clear that this is a vision of the Church being spoken of by the 24 elders -- those redeemed out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation. As to Rev 7:14,15 it says "these are they who came out of great tribulation". That can be interpreted in two ways: (1) they were subject to the Great Tribulation or (2) they were sheltered from the Great Tribulation and came out of it unscathed. If we look at Rev 3:10, I believe the second alternative would be correct ("I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth").

The bride represented in type by Rebekah was not the total of Abraham's kindred, but that select one.

When it comes to typology, we need to be careful to avoid taking it too far. If Abraham represents God the Father, Isaac God the Son, the servant God the Holy Spirit, and Rebekah the Church, then it is the Holy Spirit who draws and brings the Bride to Christ, and there can no division of this Bride into separate components. So once again, the integrity of the whole Church is seen in this analogy.

I trust you will give this further consideration and we will be on the same page.

 

[Eugene]

When it comes to typology, we need to be careful to avoid taking it too far. If Abraham represents God the Father, Isaac God the Son, the servant God the Holy Spirit, and Rebekah the Church, then it is the Holy Spirit who draws and brings the Bride to Christ, and there can no division of this Bride into separate components. So once again, the integrity of the whole Church is seen in this analogy.

To me, the entire church is seen in this analogy, but all the kindred of Abraham was not brought to Isaac to be his bride. Thanks for your input, and I figure we'll just have to disagree on this.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

This post has been accidentally triplicated by you. You could delete two of them. The "function of Levi" was to be the ancestor of the priests and Levites, who did not receive a separate portion of the land, but were assigned lands within the other tribes. James wrote to the Jews "scattered abroad" (those who had not returned to Israel after they were taken to other lands).


Not a conditional promise at all. Please see Gen 17:8.



That's because God is presently not dealing with Israel as a nation. This is the Church Age, where God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile. After the Church is "caught up" to Heaven, God will resume His dealings with Israel as a nation.



Today, the Hebrews who are saved are gathered into the Body of Christ, the Church. During the Millenium, the Church is already "the wife of the Lamb" in Heaven, but Israel will be on earth, and Hebrews will be regenerated and remain on earth, along with other saved nations.

I buy that genesis 17:8 when you can see the word olam means age. god also said forever to the priests. agains levy has no land. its not his inheritance. God is and said that to them they will be given land amongst the brethren but no promise land of borders. and also that YHWH said to isreal that the gates of hell shall prevail against that.

so which YHWH married isreal? Jesus, the Father or the Holy Spirit. at salvation we have all three in us not one. now its the Hebrews aren't saved they aren't married to the Lord. interesting well said vic c when he said he its like another gospel. for its. paul is to be amongst the nation of isreal judging them. so are the other 12 they aren't with the church. oops.

 

[jasonc]

I cant delete the two posts. would a mod delete the copied posts?

 

[smaller]

Israel are a literal people, but the term and all that they show in the scriptures are meant to be viewed allegorically.

Israel is Gods Final Solution:

His People/No Enemies.

 

[jasonc]

Israel are a literal people, but the term and all that they show in the scriptures are meant to be viewed allegorically.

Israel is Gods Final Solution:

His People/No Enemies.

huh?

isreal is and was a nation , its still around as a people. wherever there is a jew there is isreal, albeit not an isreal HOLY.but a bunch of saved Hebrews make that isreal up.

 

[smaller]

huh?

isreal is and was a nation , its still around as a people. wherever there is a jew there is isreal, albeit not an isreal HOLY.but a bunch of saved Hebrews make that isreal up.

Jacob became Israel after quite a bit of 'internal personal wrestling.'

None of Israel today are any different. And of course there are 'natural' men of Israel who think only they are Israel, which are merely the thoughts of natural thinking Israelites.

 

[jasonc]

Jacob became Israel after quite a bit of 'internal personal wrestling.'

None of Israel today are any different. And of course there are 'natural' men of Israel who think only they are Israel, which are merely the thoughts of natural thinking Israelites.

ok I know that. this thread is more about what isreal is and how the idea of a land being called isreal isn't need to fulfill the promise to the Hebrew nation.