eretz y'israel

[smaller]

ok I know that. this thread is more about what isreal is and how the idea of a land being called isreal isn't need to fulfill the promise to the Hebrew nation.

Very true. The 'land' that Israel is promised by God is our SINLESS ETERNAL BODIES.

It has nothing to do with that piece of dirt in the middle east.

 

[jasonc]

Very true. The 'land' that Israel is promised by God is our SINLESS ETERNAL BODIES.

It has nothing to do with that piece of dirt in the middle east.

if I may, the earth is to be redeemed or not?

 

[smaller]

if I may, the earth is to be redeemed or not?

Perhaps a new earth will be in order?

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There is not much point in observing just the little round ball spiraling in space on this matter.

There is no piece of dirt where 'righteousness' will be within it.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[jasonc]

Perhaps a new earth will be in order?

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

There is not much point in observing just the little round ball spiraling in space on this matter.

There is no piece of dirt where 'righteousness' will be within it.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I don't that chapter that way.

but this isn't the thread for that. I may post a comment or two on why that isn't the case for and its with the same chapter. no sea? outside theres the lost and damned, if you take that literally leave the new Jerusalem where are you then? hell? or the earth?

 

[smaller]

The earth in scriptural terms has nothing to do with the round blue ball nor does the sea mean one or more bodies of H2O covering that blue ball, nor does Israel mean Israel of the flesh.

It is and will remain quite entirely pointless to look at any of these matters from a strictly physical perspective.

Of course that doesn't stop those kinds of postures from transpiring either.

 

[jasonc]

The earth in scriptural terms has nothing to do with the round blue ball nor does the sea mean one or more bodies of H2O covering that blue ball, nor does Israel mean Israel of the flesh.

It is and will remain quite entirely pointless to look at any of these matters from a strictly physical perspective.

Of course that doesn't stop those kinds of postures from transpiring either.

uhm what does it mean then that the sea isn't really the sea to you? you did say that this earth is nor more. what then is the new earth?

 

[smaller]

uhm what does it mean then that the sea isn't really the sea to you? you did say that this earth is nor more. what then is the new earth?

Most people will read, for example:

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; -

and they will naturally 'picture' everyone who may have drowned or died in the natural sea as being what that means.

That's not the case. Never was. Never will be.

The sea is an allegorical picture of mankind. The dead are actually matters of an internal nature. But natural sights won't yield accurate spiritual sights. It's just not possible for natural sight to 'get there.'

 

[jasonc]

Most people will read, for example:

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; -

and they will naturally 'picture' everyone who may have drowned or died in the natural sea as being what that means.

That's not the case. Never was. Never will be.

The sea is an allegorical picture of mankind. The dead are actually matters of an internal nature. But natural sights won't yield accurate spiritual sights. It's just not possible for natural sight to 'get there.'

so what is hades then? if I were to take the sea you way that means man would be dead.

 

[smaller]

so what is hades then? if I were to take the sea you way that means man would be dead.

Matters of 'the dead' have to be approached in spiritual sight as well.

Here for example we see 'the dead' engaged in active physical activity. Meaning they appear to the physical eye only as being very much alive and NOT dead, and actively engaged in the activity of burying.

Not so dead to the physical eye, huh?

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus saw the matters of the dead as an internal matter.

 

[jasonc]

Matters of 'the dead' have to be approached in spiritual sight as well.

Here for example we see 'the dead' engaged in active physical activity. Meaning they appear to the physical eye only as being very much alive and NOT dead, and actively engaged in the activity of burying.

Not so dead to the physical eye, huh?

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Jesus saw the matters of the dead as an internal matter.

that isn't what I asked. what is hades?

and hades gave up the dead in it , the sea doesn't have any dead it literally to be judged but hades does?
that is also the great white thrown judgement. so man the sea will be literally doing that. the sea if its all man where is it then if the earth isn't there and its not heaven?

the only reason I don't take 2 peter literal on that is how does a fire melt the sun and stars and the earth?

 

[smaller]

that isn't what I asked. what is hades?

When you figure out that the 'dead' are Satan and his messengers you'll also understand 'hades.'

Presently I'd suspect you think 'hades' has something to do with people. It doesn't.

 

[jasonc]

When you figure out that the 'dead' are Satan and his messengers you'll also understand 'hades.'

Presently I'd suspect you think 'hades' has something to do with people. It doesn't.

hades is the concept of sheol. sheol, sorry that is where the lost that are awaiting judgement are.

see the chapter of luke 16 on that, even though its about what the Pharisees taught on sheol and their looming judgement but tis a good view of what sheol was to them.

and also 1 peter 3 also has spirits in prison.

 

[smaller]

hades is the concept of sheol. sheol, sorry that is where the lost that are awaiting judgement are.

see the chapter of luke 16 on that, even though its about what the Pharisees taught on sheol and their looming judgement but tis a good view of what sheol was to them.

and also 1 peter 3 also has spirits in prison.

The 'lost' stay right here on earth my friend. They have been here for quite a long time. When 'they' lose their flesh habitation, there look for another hideout.

 

[jasonc]

The 'lost' stay right here on earth my friend. They have been here for quite a long time. When 'they' lose their flesh habitation, there look for another hideout.

okaaaaaaaaay. no further questions.

 

[smaller]

okaaaaaaaaay. no further questions.

You and I very often part ways when we hit the bridge of allegory don't we? You always preferring the physical sights, of course.

 

[jasonc]

You and I very often part ways when we hit the bridge of allegory don't we? You always preferring the physical sights, of course.

nope. im not a futurist. I don't take things out of context without looking at the the jewish historical views of such things first with the bible being the primary source of it. historically jews see hades/sheol as a place for both the righteous and wicked and also has levels and a purgatory to it. they didn't know it all and it wasn't told nor revealed to them what it is fully but statements of such are in the bible.
the afformentioned chapter states where those spirits were and when they lived. what you have said about sheol isn't to be supported by the bible. satan and his minions at that time are cast into the lake of fire. gehenna.

 

[smaller]

nope. im not a futurist.

Nor am I.

I don't take things out of context without looking at the the jewish historical views of such things first with the bible being the primary source of it.

History is just another physical filter among many.

historically jews see hades/sheol as a place for both the righteous and wicked and also has levels and a purgatory to it. they didn't know it all and it wasn't told nor revealed to them what it is fully but statements of such are in the bible.
the afformentioned chapter states where those spirits were and when they lived. what you have said about sheol isn't to be supported by the bible. satan and his minions at that time are cast into the lake of fire. gehenna.

Hades is probably outside of the general context of this thread, but in any case it is a place for the spirits of the damned. I think we can also both agree that the devil and his messengers are damned AND are presently 'in' or 'on' this present earth.

So where then is Hades but here?

 

[JLB]

Jason,

Today the Church is the spiritual "Israel of God" but God is not through with His promises to Abraham. God made a Covenant with Abraham, in which He gave the land of Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates) to the physical descendants of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to "Israel" (a prince with God) and Jacob prophesied about the 12 tribes (springing from his 12 sons) before He died.

When the nation of Israel rejected Messiah, God's direct dealings with Israel came to a temporary hiatus (Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D.), during which Jew and Gentile (without any distinction) would form the Church. There is a specfic number of the unsaved which will gathered into the Church, following which the Church will be "raptured" (caught up into Heaven).

After that God will resume His direct dealings with Israel, and ultimately Christ will redeem and restore "all Israel" and establish His Kingdom on this earth. The 144,000 are representative of "all Israel" and are yet to be sealed. You will notice that they do not remain on earth ("redeemed from the earth") but sing before the throne of God in Heaven (Rev 14:2,3).

Why do we believe that modern Israel will be subject to God's direct dealings? Because they are already in the Land of Promise, and Jerusalem and Israel feature significantly in all Bible prophecies.

1. No such thing as a pre-trib Rapture.
2. The Church or Ecclesia, the Holy Nation began with Abraham and The Lord Jesus.
   
3. We, Gentiles are grafted into, and made partakers of the Commonwealth of Israel, not the other way around.

JLB

 

[jasonc]

Nor am I.



History is just another physical filter among many.




Hades is probably outside of the general context of this thread, but in any case it is a place for the spirits of the damned. I think we can also both agree that the devil and his messengers are damned AND are presently 'in' or 'on' this present earth.

So where then is Hades but here?

hades isn't here, if it was then why would Abraham behold I die and its merely walking in spirit form lost on the earth?

 

[smaller]

hades isn't here, if it was then why would Abraham behold I die and its merely walking in spirit form lost on the earth?

Do you even know that death and hell/hades ride on HORSES.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

(NIV)
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Do you see them galloping around Jason? And yes, they ride here on earth or in earth to be more accurate in the spiritual sense.