BigSodaExposer
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Rather, the divine was revealed to him. He was chosen by God.
Did this make getting saved by faith null and void for him?
Did this make getting saved by faith null and void for him?
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Paul was not saved by faith
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smaller
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Obviously Saul was granted the Gracious favor of a direct exposure of experience in a physical way. And it was quite entirely unique.
Faith was granted to him in that engagement, just as it is given to all of us who have been enabled by the Holy Spirit to say that Jesus Is Lord of All.
No man conjures up faith of their own accord. Every last one of us has been dragged into faith by God in Christ in 'individually' unique fashions, down to the least of us. That is part of the beauty of God in Christ, that He meets us in HIS WAY, unique to each.
If we were not allowed to hear, to see, we would not. Saul happened to have had a very unique salvation, as to method. And in some ways it is an example of failure on the part of the earlier Apostles, that such a Divine Intervention and Revelation was required to EMPHASIZE GRACE. Even Peter acknowledged the difficulties of what Paul taught.
We can tell some of that extension of Grace to the Gentiles with Peter, but Saul to Paul came with very specific directives in this regard unto US gentiles and with Revelation not seen in the other Apostles. As such Paul was himself a unique gift to us all because of the experiences.
LovethroughDove
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I think it strengthened his faith the more he trusted God in the purpose God had for his life.
BigSodaExposer
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TOG I don't think we are on the same page with this. If Paul gained faith by his personal experience through Christ it would be the same thing would it not?
smaller
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The Israelites that came out of Egypt provide an interesting look at unbelief and it's power apart from the Unveiling of Jesus Christ in the N.T.
Every last person of Israel over the age of 20 save for 2 people DIED in the desert because of their actions of unbelief inclusive of both Moses and Aaron.
That is a testimony to the reality of our struggles with unbelief apart from Jesus Christ as He has subsequently been revealed to us.
Israel is a picture of flesh men struggling apart from Christ. That doesn't however mean they were not engaging the same God in Christ. The didn't have the WHOLE story and it was not given to them to have in behalf of the world.
Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
BigSodaExposer
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No he was not repentant, he was blasphemous, Paul had no love for Christianity before Jesus exposed himself to Paul. He did become repentant and great messenger for Christ afterwards though. "he believed that this was his God he had grown up praying to and reading the scriptures" Where does it say that in the bible? If he was already saved then you make it sound like Paul was a prodigal son that just went out away then returned. I don't recall the bible saying that.
TOG
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Doulos Iesou
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I think I see the problem here, and it is with the definition of faith. You seem to be defining it as Blind Belief, accepting something as true without proof.
The Greek Word for faith goes beyond this though, and entails trust. Trusting in God for our salvation, and putting our faith in the work of the Cross. Not necessarily believing that God exists and that Jesus is the Messiah, simply through mental assent to the proposition.
smaller
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Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith does not arrive out of thin air. It is given as a gift.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith does not arrive out of thin air. It is given as a gift.
Shakes
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I think the "afterwards" part is what Deborah13 is talking about. He didn't have to repent.
BigSodaExposer
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No not exactly....mmmm........Paul was chosen for a purpose. Jesus knew the potential in Paul even if Paul didn't. But in that instance going to Damascus, Jesus revealed himself to Paul and temporarily took his sight. Paul then got faith yes, and he repented and saw the evil he had done and realized he was a sinner and was in the wrong persecuting christians. But Paul did not know he was in the wrong before.
In other words...Paul was like the thief crucified on the left of Jesus. That theif died unrepentant and unsaved. Paul was unrepentant at the moment God came on him. In that moment he gained faith. Its true the scripture says all have sinned (Roman's 3:23) and there are none righteous (Romans 3:10). But God does what God wants to do. Why was Israel chosen? Why was Judas Iscariot chosen? John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
In other words...Paul was like the thief crucified on the left of Jesus. That theif died unrepentant and unsaved. Paul was unrepentant at the moment God came on him. In that moment he gained faith. Its true the scripture says all have sinned (Roman's 3:23) and there are none righteous (Romans 3:10). But God does what God wants to do. Why was Israel chosen? Why was Judas Iscariot chosen? John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
smaller
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To repent means to change your mind.
Saul had his mind changed, so yes, in that he repented and was turned from the power of the captivity of Satan just as every believer is turned. Repentance is having our minds changed. It is not something we do solely of ourselves. It is brought upon us to do so.
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
BigSodaExposer
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Eternal salvation is a free gift. But what you are saying is that God must give you the faith that you then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get saved?
Shakes
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Exactly - and it was through that faith that he was saved.
BigSodaExposer
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Right
smaller
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Every person who is turned away from their internal captivity of Satan has been Divinely turned or 'repented' away from that control and granted both Grace and the faith to perceive their salvation.
None of that comes from the person, but is reflected THROUGH them after it happens. It originates from none of us.
BigSodaExposer
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Most of you guys are simply running circles around this issue. Why is it so hard to say that Paul was not saved by faith, but by God? Some agree with me that faith was gained after the visitation but not after. I think what it is is that most are considering my statement like works salvation. And essentially it is....but it is Gods works. No it was not of Pauls doing. Nor does this happen to everyone everyday. Paul is proof of that.
