When does God put souls into bodies?

[chessman]

The NASB does not say miscarry.

You know what FreeGrace , Deborah13 is right. None of the main, modern translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, LEB) say 'miscarry'. Why? Because it's rather obviously talking about premature birth of a child in 22a (the child could be born unharmed, harmed, or worse (die). 22b handles the case of an unharmed child (fines the man for the accidental striking of the women in accordance with the judges's decision on the husband's civil suit).

Verse 23 handles the case for criminal penalty(s) if any further injury occurs (limb for limb, etc.).

I just assumed you were accurately saying the NASB said she misscarried upon an accidently strike. But upon further study, it seems that she was struck and simply gave birth prematurely as a result. The premature child could live just fine, live but with injuries to varying degrees or the child could die. Thus, eye-for-eye, etc.

(BTW, God does call what's inside her womb a young child [3206].

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3206.htm

Could you please tell me which translation/s do say miscarry?

Adrian Peterson's-The Message, AMP, CEB, ???

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ex+21:22&version=AMP;MSG;CEB

 

[OzSpen]

You know what FreeGrace , Deborah13 is right. None of the main, modern translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, HCSB, ESV, LEB) say 'miscarry'. Why? Because it's rather obviously talking about premature birth of a child in 22a (the child could be born unharmed, harmed, or worse (die). 22b handles the case of an unharmed child (fines the man for the accidental striking of the women in accordance with the judges's decision on the husband's civil suit).

Verse 23 handles the case for criminal penalty(s) if any further injury occurs (limb for limb, etc.).

I just assumed you were accurately saying the NASB said she misscarried upon an accidently strike. But upon further study, it seems that she was struck and simply gave birth prematurely as a result. The premature child could live just fine, live but with injuries to varying degrees or the child could die. Thus, eye-for-eye, etc.

(BTW, God does call what's inside her womb a young child [3206].
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3206.htm
Adrian Peterson's-The Message, AMP, CEB, ???
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ex 21:22&version=AMP;MSG;CEB

Exodus 21:22 reads: “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine” (ESV).

This verse has sometimes been interpreted to state that the foetus is not fully human. From the exegesis of the passage, I cannot conclude this way for these reasons:

1. The Hebrew word translated in the ESV as “come out”, is yahtzah and it means “to give birth.” This is the same Hebrew word used throughout the OT for live births. So, in this passage it refers to a premature birth of a live child. It does not refer to a miscarriage (in spite of some translations using 'miscarry').

2. Another Hebrew word is used for miscarriage, shakol, and that is not the word used in Ex. 21:22.

3. The name of the mother’s offspring in this verse is called “children,” yeled. This is the same word that is used in verses such as Gen. 21:8 and Ex. 2:3 for babies and young children. If there was harm done to either the mother or child, the punishment was “life for life” (Ex. 21:23).

4. So, Ex. 21:22-23 demonstrates that the unborn was equal in value to the mother.

Geisler quotes the famous Hebrew scholar, Umberto Cassuto , also known as Moshe David Cassuto (1883–1951), who translated Exodus 21:22-23 this way:

“When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mischief happens—that is, the woman and the children do not die—the one who hurts her shall surely be punished by a fine. But if any mischief happens, that is, if the woman dies or the children, then you shall give life for life”.[2]

Therefore, these verses confirm that unborn children in the womb are human, on the same level as an adult woman who gives birth to a child, and the punishment for killing an unborn child is “life for life”.

Notes:

[1] Information based on Norman Geisler 1989, Christian Ethics, Apollos, Leicester, England, p. 145.

[2] Umberto Cassuto 1974. A Commentary on the Book of Exodus, trans. Israel Abrahams. Jerusalem: Magnes, p. 275 (cited in Geisler ibid.)

Oz

 

[JLB]

OK, cutting to the chase, when did God impute a soul to Adam? Gen 2:7


Gen 2:7 says "breathed into his nostrils". That's putting something (breath of life) INTO nostrils. Very clear.


Please quote and cite the verse, if you're doing that. Otherwise, I will think you're only expressing an opinion.

Please show this Forum the scripture that implies that a [dead] human body without a spirit, can grow inside a mother's womb.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


JLB

 

[JohnD]

Most of Christianity believes that the moment of conception is when a human being is created, body and soul.

However, from Gen 2:7, we see that God FIRST prepared a body "from the dust of the ground", BEFORE He breathed into the nostrils the "breath of life", or soul. Only then did "man become a living being". So, for the first Adam, the order was prepare a body, and then put the soul into the body, creating a living being.

Also, we know from Heb 10:5 that God prepared a body for the Son of God. So, for the Last Adam, the order was prepare a body for His Son. Obviously God didn't create a soul for His Son, since His Son has always existed. But Heb 10:5 does indicate that a body was prepared for Him.

So it would appear that God's order is to prepare a body before the soul is placed into the body.

Can anyone show from Scripture that God's order is REVERSED for everyone else, if in fact the soul is created at conception?

Begging the pardon of the OP, your definition of soul may not be quite accurate.

One thing we must realize in our study of the Word is the fact that even language itself was in a state of creative flux... hence the idioms like "angel" pertaining to cherubs and seraphs when actually it only means "messenger" or "sent one." Even in scripture the accepted misnomer all spirit beings are the angels occurs. Also the distinction between physical Israel and spirit Israel (typically "Israel" and "all Israel" respectively) can be at times ambiguous.

Soul and spirit are typically interchangeable in scripture as are body and soul... and in the division of spirit and body the soul is apparently absent.

Conclusion... the soul is a buffer between the two realities which is gone when the two realities are separated.
(A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)

 

[JohnD]

​

In this scenario (if correct) all three biblical descriptions of death are accounted for.

1. The spirit goes to be with the Lord (believers) or to sheol (unbelievers)
2. The body ceases animation / autonomy and appears to sleep and begins to decay back to its basic elements
3. The soul ceases to exist

I find that when people argue (especially when quoting *some* scriptures) the human destination in death they typically focus only on one of the three aspects of our humanity and this is where the impasses occur.
(A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)

 

[gr8grace3]

I meant 1:27. Something is going on with my phone editor today and it's acting weird.

But a better, more related example of the same word being used is:

Luke 6:42Prep
GRK: τὴν δοκὸν ἐκ τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ
KJV: first the beam out of thine own eye,

Luke 6:42Lexham English Bible (LEB)
42 How are you able to say to your brother, “Brother, allow me to remove the speck that is in your eye,” while you yourself do not see the beam of wood in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the beam of wood from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye!​

My point is, that the word in the KJV or in the LEB or in the GRK simply means from (out of), origin.
If the beam was in the eye of the hypocrite prior to removal from the eye, then the Holy Spirit was in John prior to removal from the womb.

Thats better. Was getting a bit confused there. But Luke 1:15 is talking a future filling of the Spirit, and it is at one point in time. It is an" either or" situation.

Either he was filled:
1. When he was in the womb
or
2. when he was out of the womb.

And we both have established that "ek" is "out of."
King James Bible
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even out of his mother's womb.

Or
King James Bible
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even in his mother's womb.

 

[chessman]

View attachment 6250

But Luke 1:15 is talking a future filling of the Spirit, and it is at one point in time.
.

Well of course, it's the angel's prophecy of John's future.

The reason I said the KJV gets it right, as well as the others is it translates the adverb in the sentence "even" to establish the timing. The word you are focusing on, is the preposition to womb. It has nothing to do with the timing. Rather the location.
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
from
Prep

The KJV says the same thing as the others.

Look at the adverb ἔτι (which is what establishs the timing of the sentence) translated "even" in the old English, "still" in the new.

the author clearly meant John would be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb.

"From" or "out of" is A preposition in the sentence. It has no time or tense associated with it.

Luke 1:15 (KJV) ... he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luke 1:15 (NASB) ... he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

Luke 1:15 (LEB) ... while he is still in his mother’s womb.

"Even from" = "while yet in". These ALL say the same thing, essentially. There is no right versus wrong translation of this verse in the KJV, just because they choose to use "from" rather than "yet in" or "out of". That word doesn't help establish the timing of John's filling but rather the location.

As I pointed out originally. The idea that he was fillied post-birth would contradict this verse. In any translation you choose to read.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean God couldn't fill A soulless fetus with the Holy Spirit while in the womb, I suppose. But one would have to ask why.

 

[gr8grace3]

it translates the adverb in the sentence "even" to establish the timing.

You are correct.

That word doesn't help establish the timing of John's filling but rather the location.

You are correct.

Luke 1:15 (KJV) ... he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even(the timing) from(Out of) his mother's womb.

In other words, the moment he is out of the womb, at birth.

 

[FreeGrace]

The penalty God prescribed for accidently killing a baby is similar to that of accidently killing a person. If you can't see the point, I simply <sigh>.

Seems you have missed the point. An accident is an accident. What happened inm Ex 21:22 was no accident. One man was trying to hurt another man. But he missed and struck a woman. Though he didn't mean to hit her, his blow was quite intentional on doing harm.

Seems your point would view someone trying to shoot another to death but "accidentally" hitting another would be only a civil penalty?

So, it seems you've mixed apples and oranges. When 2 men strive, they have entered the criminal arena, which is why the verse ended with "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life". If God considered the fetus to be a human being, then "life for a life" would have been required. This was no "accident". It was intentional. But the blow simply hit the "wrong" person.

Your point is not taken.

No there wouldn't. Not if it was accidently killed. Read Ex:12:13
Killing a person on accident isn't even a criminal penalty according to God.

Irrelevant.

 

[FreeGrace]

Everything is born of a seed, Our spirit starts out as a seed. The bloodline(not blood type) is contained in the seed of the father/male of the offspring, that decides the lineage or stock of man or animal.
The Bible says life(spirit) of a man resides in the blood. If it meant that we loose our life only if we loose our blood, then how is it the a man can loose his life without shedding a drop? Our life is our spirit.
We take communion of the Bread and the Wine, The wine represents the blood or the Spirit of life(Ruach Breath of life)and the Bread is the Word of life. Jesus is the Seed of God and the Bread of life, him being the Word of God and the Bible tells us that the Word is Seed. And again, since the seed of a man is what determines the child's bloodline, that is how we are born of God by the indwelling Spirit and Word of God.
Abel's blood cried out because the spirit is in the blood, and that is why blood is used for atonement, life for life. We are spirit just as our Father is Spirit. If we are united with God's Spirit then we are alive, if not we are considered dead. Jesus showed this, when he said to one wanting to bury his father first, he said, let the dead, bury their own dead. We must feed upon the Word of God and drink in the Spirit in order to inherit the kingdom of God.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
KJV
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
KJV
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
KJV
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
KJV
1 Cor 15:39
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
KJV
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
KJV
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
KJV
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
KJV
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
KJV
Gen 4:10-11
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
KJV
Gen 4:25
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
KJV
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
KJV
Gal 3:19
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
KJV

None of these verses supports the claim that "our spirits start out as a seed". The spirit of man is created by God.

Eccl 12:7 then the dust [biological life] will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit [soul life] will return to God who gave it.
Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath [neshemah] to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk in it,
Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me (asah- human being, And the breath [neshemah] of the Almighty gives me life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am focusing on your point but I don't see it represented in this scripture, Heb. 10:5
So as far as this scripture we will not agree.

OK. But the ORDER is clear from both Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5. God prepares a body for the soul.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have been shown that Adam is the exception, as he was created by God and the dirt the he was made from became a living being; spirit, soul and body when God breathed into him.

No one has shown any exception. Adam was created by God FIRST "forming Adam from the dust of the ground", and THEN breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, and Adam "became a living soul". And Jesus said that God prepared a body for Him in Heb 10:5. So there is an ORDER which anyone can see.

Everyone else, God forms their spirit [man] within them at birth.

A human being that is developing in it's mothers womb is living.

A body that is living and growing has a spirit within.

But you just said that the spirit is formed AT BIRTH. So how can the spirit be within if it is formed AT BIRTH? This is a contradiction.

 

[FreeGrace]

Barbarian observes:
I believe it is at conception. We don't have any real way to test that, but it makes sense. Conception is when a new, genetically different individual is formed.

The question is about WHEN the soul is put into the body.

The body, at conception is merely a cell. But it's a physical body, and a genetically new individual, albeit not fully developed.

It's not a physical body. It is a fertilized egg.

I don't think it's a major issue, except in terms of abortion, which I see as the taking of a human life. You may differ, and I don't have any sort of evidence to show you one way or the other. Merely my understanding of scripture and Apostolic teaching.

Which Scripture would teach that any part of the process of gestation is a human life?

Why would Job say this in 3:11?
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?

If life begins at conception, why die he mention "at birth" and "come forth from the womb" before he died? If life begins at conception, he should have noted that.

 

[FreeGrace]

The NASB does not say miscarry.

“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman withchild so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him,and he shall pay as the judges decide.
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And my hard copy 1978 NASB also says "miscarry". I've seen several other translation use that word, but I didn't write them down. But it can be checked easily enough.

 

[FreeGrace]

A couple of things to consider:

When God breathed into Adam the "breath of life" it may have been a literal breath [mostly nitrogen and oxygen] to animate his body of flesh. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood . . ." (Lev 17:11 LITV). Although Lev 17:11 references animal flesh, the principle is the same for our flesh; the life of our flesh is in our blood.

Although animals and humans share what I call biological life, or physiological life, the life of a human is in the soul or spirit, as James 2:26 indicates. Animal life is found in the blood.

You mentioned the body and soul in your OP, but do you believe that a man has a spirit also; a spirit that is distinct from his soul. I do, and would reference 1Thes 5:23, "And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and Heb 4:12, "For the word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow [body, flesh], and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;"

Yes, I am fully convinced that man is trichotomous; body, soul and spirit. But the Bible does use the words 'spirit' and 'soul' interchangeably at times. The concepts overlap.

So I would expand your question in the OP, 'When did God create our soul and our spirit?' I am firmly convinced that our spirit was created, and that it is not a part of God's Holy Spirit.

I agree. Most likely God created the soul and spirit at the same time. btw, the warning of the forbidden tree was "in the day that you eat of it, you will die" is clear. But Adam didn't fall dead on that day. So, what died? I believe it was his human spirit, not his soul. So, when one believes and is regenerated, I believe it is the dead human spirit which is regenerated, or born again.

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe that someone is a living being even as an embryo or fetus. John the Baptist expressed emotion or worship while yet unborn. "For behold, as the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped in exultation" (Luk 1:44 LITV).

The question, regardless of translation, is "in WHOSE exultation"? I submit it was Elizabeth's emotional reaction to hearing Mary's voice which caused fetal contractions. I don't think John was human being at that point, nor did he comprehend any sound.

Jeremiah was consecrated before being born, while in his mother's womb, ". . . before you came out of the womb, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nations" (Jer 1:5 LITV). That demonstrates Jeremiah's sentience beyond a physical mind or body. Also, our personalities are greatly influenced while in the womb.

how come he wasn't consecrated while IN the womb?

And why did Job say this:
“Why did I not die at birth, Come forth from the womb and expire?

If human life begins at conception, why didn't he wish for an abortion? Why mention "at birth" and "come forth FROM the womb". Clearly, he viewed human life as beginning at birth, not some time before birth.

So killing an embryo or fetus would indeed be murder.

I've already gone over Ex 21:22. NASB translates it as miscarry, yet there is only a civil penalty, not a criminal penalty for it.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

You are simply repeating the arguments you made on that other forum. I'm not prepared to go over and over it again with you here. What are you trying to achieve in jumping from one forum to another with the same issue of when the soul enters the body?

I enjoy the discussion. btw, no one has refuted my view yet.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exodus 21:22 reads: “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine” (ESV).

This verse has sometimes been interpreted to state that the foetus is not fully human. From the exegesis of the passage, I cannot conclude this way for these reasons:

1. The Hebrew word translated in the ESV as “come out”, is yahtzah and it means “to give birth.” This is the same Hebrew word used throughout the OT for live births. So, in this passage it refers to a premature birth of a live child. It does not refer to a miscarriage (in spite of some translations using 'miscarry').

2. Another Hebrew word is used for miscarriage, shakol, and that is not the word used in Ex. 21:22.

3. The name of the mother’s offspring in this verse is called “children,” yeled. This is the same word that is used in verses such as Gen. 21:8 and Ex. 2:3 for babies and young children. If there was harm done to either the mother or child, the punishment was “life for life” (Ex. 21:23).

4. So, Ex. 21:22-23 demonstrates that the unborn was equal in value to the mother.

Geisler quotes the famous Hebrew scholar, Umberto Cassuto , also known as Moshe David Cassuto (1883–1951), who translated Exodus 21:22-23 this way:

“When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mischief happens—that is, the woman and the children do not die—the one who hurts her shall surely be punished by a fine. But if any mischief happens, that is, if the woman dies or the children, then you shall give life for life”.[2]

Therefore, these verses confirm that unborn children in the womb are human, on the same level as an adult woman who gives birth to a child, and the punishment for killing an unborn child is “life for life”.

Notes:

[1] Information based on Norman Geisler 1989, Christian Ethics, Apollos, Leicester, England, p. 145.

[2] Umberto Cassuto 1974. A Commentary on the Book of Exodus, trans. Israel Abrahams. Jerusalem: Magnes, p. 275 (cited in Geisler ibid.)

Oz

On this site, https://www.biblegateway.com, I found 16 translations that used "miscarry" or "born dead" for Ex 21:22.
Amplified Bible, CEB, Complete Jewish Bible, CEV, Douay Rheims 1899, Expanded Bible notes that 'miscarry' is possible, Good News Translation, Jubilee Bible 2000, Living Bible, The message, NAB revised, New Life Version, NRSV, RSV and Wycliffe Bible.

Out of 46 translations. That's 35% using miscarry. I'm not alone.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show this Forum the scripture that implies that a [dead] human body without a spirit, can grow inside a mother's womb.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
JLB

James was speaking about WHEN someone dies, not anything about before birth. Your request is irrelevant.

 

[OzSpen]

I enjoy the discussion. btw, no one has refuted my view yet.

That's not the point I was making. You are simply repeating the same old, same old arguments that you engaged in with the other forum.

I refuted your perspective on the other forum, but you are not open to receiving that information because you say, 'I enjoy the discussion'. No matter how much biblical information is provided to refute your view, you are not open to that change as was demonstrated on the other forum.

Bye.