When does God put souls into bodies?

[JohnD]

Repost for missing scripture references.

Begging the pardon of the OP, your definition of soul may not be quite accurate.

One thing we must realize in our study of the Word is the fact that even language itself was in a state of creative flux... hence the idioms like "angel" pertaining to cherubs and seraphs when actually it only means "messenger" or "sent one."

ANGEL. A biblical angel (Heb. mal’āḵ, strongs #4397 Gk. angelos strongs #32) is, by derivation and function, a messenger of God
R. A. Stewart, “Angel,” ed. D. R. W. Wood et al., New Bible Dictionary (Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996), 36.

Even in scripture the accepted misnomer all spirit beings are the angels occurs. (Hebrews 1:7)

Also the distinction between physical Israel and spirit Israel (typically "Israel" and "all Israel" respectively) can be at times ambiguous (Romans 2:28-29 / Romans 9:6).

Soul and spirit are typically interchangeable in scripture as are body and soul... (Isaiah 26:9)

5315 נֶפֶשׁ [nephesh /neh·fesh/] n f. From 5314; TWOT 1395a; GK 5883; 753 occurrences; AV translates as “soul” 475 times, “life” 117 times, “person” 29 times, “mind” 15 times, “heart” 15 times, “creature” nine times, “body” eight times, “himself” eight times, “yourselves” six times, “dead” five times, “will” four times, “desire” four times, “man” three times, “themselves” three times, “any” three times, “appetite” twice, and translated miscellaneously 47 times. 1 soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion. 1A that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man. 1B living being. 1C living being (with life in the blood). 1D the man himself, self, person or individual. 1E seat of the appetites. 1F seat of emotions and passions. 1G activity of mind. 1G1 dubious. 1H activity of the will. 1H1 dubious. 1I activity of the character. 1I1 dubious.

They are not the same and there is a distinct absence of the soul in the death of man (Ecclesiastes 3:31 / Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Conclusion... the soul is a buffer between the two realities which is gone when the two realities are separated.

 

[Deborah13]

1Sa 1:15 And Hannah answereth and saith, `No, my lord, A woman sharply pained in spirit I am , and wine and strong drink I have not drunk, and I pour out my soul before Yehovah;

Isa 26:9 With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's not the point I was making. You are simply repeating the same old, same old arguments that you engaged in with the other forum.

When people respond to my posts, I respond in turn. If that's what is meant by "repeating", then so be it.

I refuted your perspective on the other forum, but you are not open to receiving that information because you say, 'I enjoy the discussion'.

I don't believe there was any refutation. I responded to that post, which refuted your charge.

No matter how much biblical information is provided to refute your view, you are not open to that change as was demonstrated on the other forum.

There wasn't any at all. Not one shred of biblical evidence that God puts souls into fertilized eggs. Which is a complete REVERSAL of the order He used when He created the first and Last Adam. Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5 both clearly indicate that God formed a body FIRST, and then came the breath of life or soul.

 

[FreeGrace]

What you forget is that two-thirds of translations DO NOT AGREE with that translation.

Here's the point. If only 1 or 2 translations used "miscarry", it could certainly be considered a fluke. But since over 1/3 of them did, is significant. To suggest that we determine what the Bible means by vote is ludicrous. My ONLY point is that a fair number of scholars believe that Ex 21:22 involved a miscarriage. That means that my view isn't just something that I dreamed up to try to support my own view.

So, when scholars disagree, what should we do: flip a coin? That's basically what is being suggested here.

[QUTOE] If we were going by majority vote of Bible translators, your acceptance of 'miscarry' would be dead in the water.[/QUOTE]
Seems that is what has already happened here. But 1/3 is significant. If only 1 or 2, you'd have a point.

 

[FreeGrace]

Notice anything significant about the majority of the translations that choose miscarry?

Umm, they're old:

Which is usually better, because of all the attempts to water down the Word and such.

However, if there is any evidence for God putting souls into fertilized eggs, please share. But then please explain WHY He REVERSED the order that He used for the first and Last Adam, per Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5, where a prepared body came before the soul.

Why would He put a soul into a totally UN-prepared fertilized egg? That makes no sense. But anyone who is emotionally and politically motivated regarding this issue isn't using sense.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is funny!!

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The body. A human body without the spirit with is dead.

The body of a human being inside the mother's womb can not grow and develop if it is dead.

I will explain it again. James was referring to the event when the spirit leaves the body. We consider that body to be DEAD. He wasn't making any reference to pre-birth. Unless there is some evidence that he was thinking of that.

And I've not seen Any explanation for how a human body can be kept alive biologically AFTER being pronounced DEAD.

This scripture is clear and can not be refuted by your unscriptural opinion.

This is hilarious. What verses have been provided to prove that God puts souls into UN-prepared fertilized eggs which would be a total REVERSAL of His order of preparing a body BEFORE the soul from Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5?

 

[JLB]

I will explain it again. James was referring to the event when the spirit leaves the body. We consider that body to be DEAD. He wasn't making any reference to pre-birth. Unless there is some evidence that he was thinking of that.

And I've not seen Any explanation for how a human body can be kept alive biologically AFTER being pronounced DEAD.


This is hilarious. What verses have been provided to prove that God puts souls into UN-prepared fertilized eggs which would be a total REVERSAL of His order of preparing a body BEFORE the soul from Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The very definition of death is a body without a spirit.... the body without the spirit is dead.

No explanation needed.

A human body without a spirit within is not a living being, it is dead according to the scripture.

The dust of the earth, that God made Adam from, was not living until He breathed the breath [spirit] into it.

Furthermore, Genesis 2:7 does not say "God out a soul into Adam".

It says Adam became a living being.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

A living human being is spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

... not just a soul.

A living being, with life.

If it is living, it has a spirit; for the body without the spirit is dead.

A human living baby can not grow and develop within it's mothers womb, without a spirit within it.

Any human body, no matter the age will cease to age and develop if it is dead, without a spirit.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

God forms us (spirit) in a man, that has to be the point of conception.

Why? What Scripture would indicate this?

Adam was a living soul

After God prepared (formed) the physical body and then breathed in the breath of life. Gen 2:7

The Soul is just our mental state, emotions, will.

It's far more than just a mental state. Rev 6:9 demonstrates this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother Mike!

Brother Mike has just MYTH BUSTED, this Theory.

Case Closed!

lol!!

Rather, he demonstrated a failure to understand and distinguish between physiological or biological life and soul life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am concerned that your point of view regarding life, that it begins at birth and not at conception, may lead to the justification of abortion by third parties.

Idiots don't really need justification for their views or actions. However, we must be true to the Word, regardless of what the nutjobs do with the Word.

Whether or not the penalty for abortion is spiritually civil or criminal, you might be complicit by [knowingly or unknowingly] helping a third party to justify an abortion. I hope you will reconsider your viewpoint; but if not please keep it private.

There is no reason to reconsider my view unless one can show from Scripture that God reversed the order for the first and Lasdt Adam from everyone else.

But Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained before coming out of the womb (Jer 1:5). He must have had a soul and spirit at that time, as the LORD was not talking about consecrating his flesh.

So, if true why reverse the order for everyone but the first and Last Adam?

Esau and Jacob were alive before being born. They had souls, personalities, emotion, blood and life . . . as they struggled with one another while yet unborn; "And the sons struggled together within her" (Gen 25:22 a LITV).

This does not prove your claim. 2 fetuses in 1 womb can do that, all from reflexes.

 

[FreeGrace]

Gregg,

Have you seen some of the pictures in Abortion and American Holocaust? These are horrific images. I find it hard to understand those who do not see these aborted babies as children whose lives were slaughtered.

Oz

I guess adding emotions to the mix will help you side.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exodus 21:22 (KJV) If men strive, ...​

Your text says that only one man was trying to hurt another man???

My text? 2 can "strive together" without either one striking the other. The issue was that 2 man attempted to strike another and hit a pregnant woman.

Yet only one deserves the punishment.

See above. The one doing the actual hitting. The text does not say that 2 men were striking each other. That is only an assumption, and a wrong one.

Think that thru based on your idea that the punishment was for one desiring to harm another.

Where would one get the notion that "striving" means to harm? Again, a wrong assumption. An argument is striving, just like we all do here on this forum.

 

[FreeGrace]

Psalm 139:3 For you have formed my inward parts: you have covered me in my mother's womb.

This verse refers to the preparation of the body for the soul, as we see in Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5.

Luke 1:41And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb.

Reflex motility occurs in the womb by fetuses. Does not indicate nor prove a soul is involved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If human life begins at conception, why didn't he wish for an abortion?"

If tomato's just start as seeds, then why do we plant them expecting tomatoes?

This question is totally irrelevant. And didn't answer my question. Let's stick with humans and leave the tomatoes to farmers. And please address my question.

If you dig a place for a swimming pool, then why get upset if someone comes at night and fills it up with concrete saying you destroyed my swimming pool, and not saying you filled my hole in the ground? Are they not also responsible for destroying what was going to be your plans for a pool?

Yes, biological life, or physiological life can be destroyed. What does that prove? The question is when does God put the soul into the body? And we see the ORDER that God used for both the first and Last Adam, per Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5. Prepare a body BEFORE the soul. The 9 month gestation period is God's plan for preparing bodies after He prepared Adam's directly and immediately.

This has not been refuted.

If people really thought as they speak, why is there a tomato on the package of tomato seeds, and not a picture of the tomato seed?

Why so fixated on tomatoes?

If Mary had a miscarriage at conception and Jesus was never born, YOU WOULD NOT EVEN BE TYPING HERE!!!!!!!!

Is there a point here? She didn't, so why speculation on the absurd?

Being fast as a Horse is nice................. But it don't beat flying. Have to work harder. And ya, Myth busted big time.

Gee, I must've blinked. I sure missed that one.

 

[FreeGrace]

So my question is.....
What would keep this one celled human being's body from being the prepared body for a soul/spirit?

Because a 1 celled zygote isn't prepared for anything, except much further division of cells until there is an actual human body that IS prepared for life outside the womb.

 

[FreeGrace]

Conclusion... the soul is a buffer between the two realities which is gone when the two realities are separated.

OK, if one believes that the moment of conception creates a living human being, meaning complete with soul/spirit or whatever one would like to call it, WHY would God REVERSE that order for everyone except the first and Last Adam, per Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5?

 

[FreeGrace]

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The very definition of death is a body without a spirit.... the body without the spirit is dead.

No explanation needed.

But I'll still help out here. If one wants to apply this verse to pre-birth, then it still supports my view!! It means there is NO living human being until God imparts or imputes the soul/spirit into the body.

A human body without a spirit within is not a living being, it is dead according to the scripture.

That's been my point.

 

[Brother Mike]

I said this:
"If human life begins at conception, why didn't he wish for an abortion?"

This question is totally irrelevant. And didn't answer my question. Let's stick with humans and leave the tomatoes to farmers. And please address my question.


Yes, biological life, or physiological life can be destroyed. What does that prove? The question is when does God put the soul into the body? And we see the ORDER that God used for both the first and Last Adam, per Gen 2:7 and Heb 10:5. Prepare a body BEFORE the soul. The 9 month gestation period is God's plan for preparing bodies after He prepared Adam's directly and immediately.

This has not been refuted.


Why so fixated on tomatoes?


Is there a point here? She didn't, so why speculation on the absurd?


Gee, I must've blinked. I sure missed that one.

I think you forgot what you posted.

You said I don't think John was human at this point.

Each seed produces after it's own Kind. Human seed only produces humans and tomato seeds produce tomatoes. Despite just being a seed, it's still human or tomato after it's own kind.

God forms the spirit in man, so that embryo that was fertilized would need a spirit to be alive and grow into a human after it's kind.

Jesus said the Word of God is like a Mustard seed that grows enough to provide protection for birds as a Mustard Tree which grow very big. Despite it starting out as seed, it's no less the Word of God planted.

 

[chessman]

[Older translatiion] Which is usually better, because of all the attempts to water down the Word and such.

X is better than Y because of (Z) ???

Older is better than newer because of (all the attempts to water down the Word)? Hmm???

Do you really think the NASB, ESV, LEB, HCSB, and others like them were attempting to water down the Word? I don't. But if you do, do you have evidence of it?

I think they updated the Hebrew into modern English as best they could using the current English of the late 20th Century (ours). Just like the KJV did using the English of the 16th Century.

That's not to say some cult specific translations haven't intentionally removed or inserted their doctrines into some 'translatiions'. They have.

I did not say, nor imply, nor think that the KJV or the other translations from centuries past you mentioned were less accurate than todays. I simply showed that the English word for miscarry/miscarriage has an etymology that has changed since the KJV used the word. During that century it didn't necessarily mean that the baby died. It simply meant it wasn't carried full term. A miss carraige. But not necessarily a death.

But then please explain WHY He REVERSED the order

I don't think He reversed (or REVERSED) the order.

I simply think that a child is prepared for it's soul much earlier than you, evidently. You even said yourself that it could be just before birth.

I just think it's likely a few months before you do and has nothing to do with it's needing some air in it's lungs.

In fact, I know it's before it breaths air via the passages that have been presented to you as evidence.

You've done nothing to counter the arguments against your view; 1) that the Holy Spirit filled John (Luke 1:15) and Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) while in the womb, or 2) that Jacob's hand grabbed Easu (Gen 25:25), or 3) God nits people together in the womb (Psalm 139:13), etc.

You keep claiming Christians that think God imputed a soul prior to birth are claiming a reversal of order (soul before body). I'm not claiming that at all. I deny that. The only folks I know of that do that are the LDS or others similar.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think you forgot what you posted.

Nope.

You said I don't think John was human at this point.

When I say "human" I mean the joining of body with soul/spirit, as we see in Gen 2:7.

[QUTOE]Each seed produces after it's own Kind. Human seed only produces humans and tomato seeds produce tomatoes. Despite just being a seed, it's still human or tomato after it's own kind.[/QUOTE]
As I've said, the 9 month gestation period is God's plan for preparing a body for the soul/spirit.

Again, where is the evidence that God reversed His order for the first and Last Adam?

God forms the spirit in man, so that embryo that was fertilized would need a spirit to be alive and grow into a human after it's kind.

Yes, the embryo will need a spirit in order to be a "living soul". Until then, it is biological or physiological life.