Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Contradictions and the soul of man

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00

freewill

Member
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a of work pure evil.

Edited by staff
 
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal,then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work pure evil.

And if the Moderators here feel what I have just written is unacceptable and delete it like they did my last post, then clearly it is time for me to leave.

Where there is no freedom of speech there is no freedom.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Is it, that man's soul is not immortal?
 
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal,then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work pure evil.

And if the Moderators here feel what I have just written is unacceptable and delete it like they did my last post, then clearly it is time for me to leave.

Where there is no freedom of speech there is no freedom.

All who have ever lived will stand before God and "give Him His Due" in accounting.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Does this speak to life past the grave? Assuredly so. There is no accounting til the book is finished being written with that person. THEN they will "give account." After death of their flesh.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no end to speculation about what happens, post death. Reality is none of us know the extents of what that is going to be. Christians LOVE to speculate that Christ will be "their excuses." And we equally love speculating about how other people, will be brutally tortured and burned alive forever or eternally snuffed out. I think any of that mindset is sick, myself.

God may turn out to be far more Gracious and Merciful than ANY of us can even imagine. Imagine that!

This is the HOPE I will maintain, to thee end. ^^^
 
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a of work pure evil.

Edited by staff

Over the centuries many Christians were regularly taught like many are still being taught today: The endless torment described in chapters 14 and 20 of Revelation shows the kind of punishment that all of the condemned will be made to suffer. It is well documented that Roman Catholic and Reformed teachers over many generations have often used these verses to promote and maintain the doctrine of immortality and endless torment coming to all who are condemned. But look again and see what these verses actually do tell us…

In Revelation 20:10 NKJV we are clearly told, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse. Revelation 14:9-11 ESV also speaks clearly of everlasting torment, "Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” But note again, we are being told here of everlasting torment coming only upon those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. In other words, this statement made by the third angel does not by any means tell us all of the condemned will be given the same punishment or condemnation as the demonic worshippers mentioned here.

Furthermore, those worshippers of Revelation 14:9-11 can be seen worshipping the beast and his image after the "the eternal gospel” was seen being proclaimed "to those who dwell on the earth – to every nation and tribe and language and people”, as Revelation 14:6 ESV explains. In which case, the sentence of endless torment given to those seen worshipping the beast and his image appears to be given not only because of their satanic worship and their receiving of the mark of the beast but also because they were made aware of the eternal gospel. Having been given knowledge of the truth and of the meaning of good and evil, and having been shown the way of salvation those demonic souls are moved only to offend with all the lust and venom of Satan himself. By their unrelenting hatred and contempt for God and truth they will bring the greater condemnation upon themselves.
So yes, God warns of a punishment of endless torment in these verses, but certainly not for every condemned soul.The key to living forever is knowing God but how we react to that knowledge in this life will largely determine our state in eternity. The wages of sin is death as revealed in Genesis chapters 2, 3 and 5 and elsewhere in the Bible, but the wages for the vilest form of evil can also be seen described in Scripture as being a punishment of endless torment.

God alone is immortal but He will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality.
 
Last edited:
God alone is immortal but He will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality.
How does one "deserve" immortality and where does the Scripture say this? I question the deserving part.

Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Exodus 33:19 NKJV

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:15 NKJV
 
God alone is immortal but He will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality.
The scriptures repeatedly establish that the soul or spirit does not cease to live when the body dies.
The examples of Moses appearing at the mount of transfiguration with Jesus and Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man have been posted several times. They can only be factual if the soul/spirit does not die.
In Revelation 20:10 NKJV we are clearly told, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”. But please note, this verse tells us that only the devil, the beast and the false prophet are spoken of here. No one else is included in this verse
That's not the only verse.
Rev 20:14-15 (NKJV) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If you only read the verses that support your opinion then you only get your opinion but not what the Bible teaches.
 
How does one "deserve" immortality and where does the Scripture say this? I question the deserving part.

A person deserves immortality when he knows God and the meaning of good and continues seeking to corrupt and destroy what he knows is good. The torture and misery and the terror and grief which he continually wishes and seeks to inflict on creation will be continually inflicted on him. It is written "He will render to each one according to his works” Romans 2:6 ESV... and justice will be done. "A man reaps what he sows” Galatians 6:7 NIV, in other words according to God's will the most evil souls shall be given the immortality they deserve, and justice will be seen to be done.

As for those who have been sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit will they not then deserve to live with God forever?
 
The scriptures repeatedly establish that the soul or spirit does not cease to live when the body dies.
The examples of Moses appearing at the mount of transfiguration with Jesus and Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man have been posted several times. They can only be factual if the soul/spirit does not die.

When a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again, but only when the wisdom and justice of God so wills and only for as long as He so wills.

If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

That's not the only verse.
Rev 20:14-15 (NKJV) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

If you only read the verses that support your opinion then you only get your opinion but not what the Bible teaches.

Regarding "the second death", God willing I will come to it later but I intend to deal with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus before then.
 
When a man dies in this life his body, soul and consciousness will at some time come alive again, but only when the wisdom and justice of God so wills and only for as long as He so wills.

If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

When you observe God Alone is "immortal" and "eternal" that would infer that only God Himself is the survivor and nothing else. It would seem then that whatever you propose from that point would be somewhat pointless and finite. Perhaps you can elaborate on our HOPE, if there is any in such a posture. I would perhaps observe Phil. 3:21 to see ourselves, therein.

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a work of pure evil.

I'm OK with either annihilation or eternal torture. None of us are getting past the Pearly Gates in our current form in any case of sights. 1 Cor. 3:15. I do wonder sometimes what is getting past. Determined it is "not me." Col. 3:3. That doesn't however preclude being "changed" from "me" to His Body, as a part/portion thereof. Our "experiences" here are NOT for naught. How much value and in what form is subject to interesting examinations.

Regarding "the second death", God willing I will come to it later but I intend to deal with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus before then.

Should be interesting. I love dissections of parables. You do show some wisdom, above. Que it up.
 
A person deserves immortality when he knows God and the meaning of good and continues seeking to corrupt and destroy what he knows is good. The torture and misery and the terror and grief which he continually wishes and seeks to inflict on creation will be continually inflicted on him. It is written "He will render to each one according to his works” Romans 2:6 ESV... and justice will be done. "A man reaps what he sows” Galatians 6:7 NIV, in other words according to God's will the most evil souls shall be given the immortality they deserve, and justice will be seen to be done.

As for those who have been sanctified and filled with the Holy Spirit will they not then deserve to live with God forever?
I'm struggling with anyone claiming to deserve to live eternally with God. To me deserving implies earning and we cannot earn our salvation. We can try but we will fail probably by the end of the day.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10 NKJV

No matter what we do, no matter how well we do it, no matter how perfect we live eternal life is still God's gift and not done for us out of our deserving. I believe that if I get what I deserve it will be death but I thank God for Jesus Christ.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV
 
I'm struggling with anyone claiming to deserve to live eternally with God. To me deserving implies earning and we cannot earn our salvation. We can try but we will fail probably by the end of the day.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10 NKJV

No matter what we do, no matter how well we do it, no matter how perfect we live eternal life is still God's gift and not done for us out of our deserving. I believe that if I get what I deserve it will be death but I thank God for Jesus Christ.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV
very well said, Im with you wip
 
I'm struggling with anyone claiming to deserve to live eternally with God. To me deserving implies earning
Sorry my words come across like that. I agree we cannot earn anything holy in our present state. However, when we have been made perfect through the finished work of Christ would we not then be deserving of an immortal life with God?
 
Eternal life is a gift which no human being deserves because all have sinned

What, even after a man has been made perfect and God remembers his sins no more?

Definition of deserve: to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or because of the qualities you have.

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" Revelation 2:7.

Do you then still believe it is wrong for me to believe God will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality?
 
What, even after a man has been made perfect and God remembers his sins no more?

Definition of deserve: to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or because of the qualities you have.

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" Revelation 2:7.

Do you then still believe it is wrong for me to believe God will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality?

It's very unlikely any of us will be in our current state, upon completion. I doubt any of us will even remember.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

When God Himself elects to "forget," then so do all, likewise.

Hebrews 8:12

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 10:17

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
 
What, even after a man has been made perfect and God remembers his sins no more?
Man will not be made perfect until enters the kingdom heaven in the age to come.
If man were made perfect in this life then there would be no need for confession but confession is taught as a Christian practice by both John (1Jo 1:9) and James. (Jas 5:16)
Definition of deserve: to have earned or to be given something because of the way you have behaved or because of the qualities you have.
"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" Revelation 2:7.
No one will enter that paradise of God in this life.
And consider Jesus' words at Luke 17:10: “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” (NASB)
Eternal life is a gift which God gives to those who believe EVEN THOUGH they still sin.
Rev 2:1-7 tells us that those who are faithful and stay the course will be given the right to eat from the tree of life WHEN they enter paradise.
Do you then still believe it is wrong for me to believe God will give immortality to whoever He decides deserves immortality?
I believe;
"… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
(John 5:28-29 NKJV)

And I believe;

(God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV)

It is not a question of being deserving.
It is a question of being obedient and faithful.
The GIFT of God is eternal life.
A GIFT is not something you deserve; it is something that is graciously given.

The idea of "deserving" eternal life is not taught in the Bible.

iakov the fool
 
If a man can believe that all men were born with immortal souls and that our our senses and our awareness and our ability to reason and perceive will live forever, and at the same time also believes 1 Timothy 6:15-16 NIV tells us God alone is immortal, then the question I have to ask myself is what other nonsense does he believe in?

He can philosophise all he wants to reconcile these differing views to his concept of reality so that he can continue promoting and maintaining the grotesque and vile idea that God will condemn the least knowledgeable and least offensive of souls who die without Christ to be tortured, screaming in agony forever, but in the end he will see what he believes is in fact nothing other than the work of Satan… or to put it another way, it is a of work pure evil.

Edited by staff
Since you follow after Armstrong's doctrines, you are going to believe him. I have been to his gatherings, it is as dead as a graveyard. I followed the WWCG for several years and studied his teachings. Scripture is not the teachings of man. It is Spiritual and not subject to carnal interpretation. There will never be a compatibility between the carnal doctrines you push and almighty God, not with me, or any other Born again believer.
 
Man will not be made perfect until enters the kingdom heaven in the age to come.
Freewill corrected himself by saying no one is actually "deserving" of spending eternity with the Lord, so we should probably move past that. Here you say no one is made perfect until he enters the Kingdom, but Jesus seems to imply that this is possible in Matthew 5:48. I believe this is explained in Romans 3:21-22. We are made perfect by Christ's perfection imputed upon us. I'm curious about your thoughts here.
 
Man will not be made perfect until enters the kingdom heaven in the age to come.
If man were made perfect in this life then there would be no need for confession but confession is taught as a Christian practice by both John (1Jo 1:9) and James. (Jas 5:16)

I would hope you understand that none of those exercises make us perfect. In confession, contrition, repentence, we are recognizing and acknowledging the hard facts of our imperfections. But we do not eliminate them by those exercises.

We are not "all good and perfect" until we fail, and then get our next fix at the altar.

No one will enter that paradise of God in this life.

The life of God in Christ IS in the here and now. We have as much as we can take in. The Life and Glory of His Life is however monitored, parceled out, according to "how much" we can take on and take in. Whatever life we do have is limited by our current state and status. As Paul shows, we are both dead and alive, simultaneously. Col. 3:3. This is hard territory to maneuver.
And consider Jesus' words at Luke 17:10: “So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’” (NASB)
Eternal life is a gift which God gives to those who believe EVEN THOUGH they still sin.
Rev 2:1-7 tells us that those who are faithful and stay the course will be given the right to eat from the tree of life WHEN they enter paradise.

Worthiness of the bearer and Worthiness of the Giver. There is no worthiness in and of the bearer. Never was. Never will be. Your presentations, as is the presentations of most "freewill" and "works" based salvation postures is that one "must" in and of themselves EARN. This is not even remotely possible.

In Gods Eyes, a man, in and of themselves, is NOTHING. When God is "introduced" into the picture of man, then everything changes. It is no longer a question of "just and only the man."

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

It is not a question of being deserving.
It is a question of being obedient and faithful.

Ah, yes. Now we cut to the heart of faithful obedience. Here is a look at faithfulness.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

We ditch our own life. That is faithfulness unto death. Not that we, as dead men, do anything or earn anything.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The GIFT of God is eternal life.
A GIFT is not something you deserve; it is something that is graciously given.

And therein is the circular reasoning you employ. One one hand, claiming that 'faithful obedience' earns it's own way in the door. And on the other, claiming it gifted.

You do understand these are conflicting claims?

The idea of "deserving" eternal life is not taught in the Bible.

iakov the fool

Nor is 'earning' it taught. Salvation and continuing in (unmerited) Grace is exactly as proposed. An unmerited GIFT than can not be taken back.


2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

And, meanwhile, back at the religious corral, everyone is busy trying to steal it, take it, earn it. The more we work from the factual seat of NO MERIT, the more Grace we are given. And such have NO interest in stealing it or earning it. They started with nothing, and become even less, until it's a reality.
 
Back
Top