Only with human understanding and then we will not all agree.
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Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?
brother Paul
Member
The one and only God has ever existed (Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit), but in time (a temporal moment) the Son/Word became incarnate in human flesh, the name of which/whom was called "Jesus." The Word was not called "Jesus" before the foundation of the world (though God foreknew that would be His name, because He would save His people from their sins).
Jesus is the God-man, but before the foundation of the world He was in no part man! The Son ever existed but not as Jesus (though that is the name given by Him to who He would become). God, the Son became Jesus. The Son, of God, became the Son, of man, so the sons of men could become the sons of God.
Jesus is the God-man, but before the foundation of the world He was in no part man! The Son ever existed but not as Jesus (though that is the name given by Him to who He would become). God, the Son became Jesus. The Son, of God, became the Son, of man, so the sons of men could become the sons of God.
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chessman
Member
civilwarbuff
Member
I directed this earlier to you Randy.....could you please clear this up for me?
You have misunderstood the answer. First of all Jesus is not a word or a radiance. Jesus is a living being (mind, spirit, will) and all the fullness of God the Father (who preexisted His firstborn) was pleased to dwell in Jesus. In that context Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power (radiance) of God the Father. Or simply all that the Father is.
Randy
Jesus=>Who do you say that I am?
Peter=>You are the Christ the Son of the Living God.
I agree (my answer is the same) as Peter's.
When I pray to Jesus I am directing such a prayer to the risen Lord. If you see Him as a man on earth let me know. (smile) Its my understanding that the Lord Jesus is to remain, (at the Fathers will), in heaven until His enemies are made His footstool. Psalm 110
Jesus to the Father=>return to me the glory I had with you before the world began.
Randy
civilwarbuff
Member
What chapter verse is that? I am familiar with Jn 17:5 but it is not the same....5 And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. (KJ2000)
chessman
Member
I didn't say Jesus was a word or a radiance.
You said:
So, like you said, Jesus is the Word (not a word). That is, the very Word of God. We agree on this point, right???
The Son is also the radiance of God's glory and exact representation of God's being.
We both agreed on this Biblical fact as well, right???
The difference between your understanding of the Son and mine is that you assume the Son was formed by God at some point in time prior to the universe being formed. I disagree with your assumption because the Bible disagrees with your assumption.
You said:
This cannot be true. Why??? Because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and exact representation of God's being.
God is eternal, God's being is eternal and God's glory is eternal. The is no point in time where God's glory did not radiance.
So I keep asking you:
Think about it... On your assumption, there was a point when the Son (the very radiance of God's glory, the exact representation of God's being) did not exist. Therefore God's glory didn't exist, given your assumption.
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Jim Parker
Member
That is false.
There was never a "time" when the Word did not exist. (John 1:1)
Yes there was (smile)
Jesus was before the creation is not the same as Jesus always was.
In the beginning, as I read, starts with the creation.
Randy
Then we disagree. It can be true because Jesus is not the Father who is the One true God as I read.
Jesus is all that the Father is only because His God was pleased that in His firstborn all His fullness should dwell. There is only one God and therefore the fullness of God is the Fathers being. (given-dwells with Jesus's spirit) Jesus as firstborn has His own spirit (not Devine in itself). Jesus could be emptied of the fullness and His Spirit (the Son that was) was in the body prepared for Him. Then after He completed all that the Father sent Jesus to do that glory was returned to Him. But at no point did the Son NOT have the Father in Him. And Jesus was clothed with power when heaven was opened and the Spirit came down from above and remained upon Him. Jesus=>The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....
My point? As I read Jesus is firstborn.
When God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. The firstborn of all creation or every creature. The assembly of the firstborn. About the "Son". Jesus has His own spirit. Jesus's God. The Father is greater. You should see that the Father glorified His Son. The name Jesus "inherited" is far greater than that of Gods other children (the angels)
I disagree that Jesus always was and in himself (as the fullness was given) He is not God. But the Jesus we know is all that the Father is because the fullness was given and returned to Him.
Randy
How is that different?
Jesus=>Who touched me? Human senses.
Are you stating that you believe Jesus was not emptied and that all the fullness of God and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge remained with Him? You don't think He had to learn to read and walk etc like a Son of Man?
Is Jesus not asking to be where He was before? (return to me)
Jesus was clothed with power at His baptism as Heaven was opened up and the Spirit came down and remained upon Him. And He did have authority (given) so that when Jesus willed the Spirit of God (Devine in itself) acted. The Father gave Him that authority. The Father was in Him and spoke in Him and Jesus conveyed those words to mankind. The Father living in Jesus doing His work. For God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son. Starting in Israel first then to all nations.
Randy
smaller
Member
That's going to be where the rub remains.
Jesus and the Father are ONE. There is no way around this.
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
There is no making one less than the other. No legitimately relegating Jesus to lesser or unequal status. No division available.
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
People err when they try to say "how much of God was manifested in Jesus."
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I believe in a bodily resurrection. I agree the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. Where we disagree is in the how that is so. I state such gifts were given from the One true God the Father to His firstborn Son who we know as Jesus.
smaller
Member
The gold standard of understandings is that when anyone tries to form a division between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit of any kind, a basic foul has transpired. Your attempt above is to relegate the Son to a "lesser status" than God, even while trying to claim you are not doing it. It is circular reasoning.
If one accept it the meaning of this scripture (Psalm 89) is that the Father, (by His own authority), appoints His Firstborn to the line of David. And therefore Davids line never ends as the Christ remains forever and Jesus is not Davids son He is Gods Son.
Psalm 89
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.
Who is greater Jesus or David?
Zech 14
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Jesus- Gods firstborn (the one and only at the Fathers side)
Psalm 89
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.
Who is greater Jesus or David?
Zech 14
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Jesus- Gods firstborn (the one and only at the Fathers side)
To debate how much or what was emptied in Jesus becoming the Son of man is a side distraction. However the Jesus is Rev is now returned to His former glory with the Father.
As Jesus would state loudly (Im back baby!!!)
Ok I kidding here.
Rev 1 is how John saw Jesus. As we believe Jesus lives forever and forever.
Randy
As Jesus would state loudly (Im back baby!!!)
Ok I kidding here.
Rev 1 is how John saw Jesus. As we believe Jesus lives forever and forever.
Randy
As I read. Perhaps you should check in with the head of the body of Christ.
Jesus=>"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
I thought I stated Jesus was the exact image of the wisdom and power of God and yet is not God but Gods Son. For that fullness was given from another as in pleased to dwell in Him.
Randy
atpollard
Member
After reading 21 pages, I have reached the conclusion that I hate discussions on the Docrtine of the Trinity and am going to go and watch the LutheranSatire video with Saint Patrick to get this taste out of my mouth. I suggest that you do the same, but I'm not your mother, so keep beating that horse if it makes you happy. ;)