Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[Randy]

When did the Son begin to be the radiance/reflection of God, on your view, versus always being the radiance of God? And more importantly, what Scripture says the Son ever began to be the radiance of God?

When asked:


You answered:


Since the Son IS the very radiance of God's glory (Heb 1:3), yet has not always existed on your view, what/who was the radiance of God's glory prior to the Son's existence, on your view?

And please post Scripture that teaches your answer.

I posted that "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" and the "firstborn of every creature KJV or the firstborn of all creation NKJV and NSRV". Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began. That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him.

I assure you it was the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord over the waters in the beginning (Genesis) At the will and command of the Father which we read He did through the Son. Just as it was the Spirit of the/His Father in the Son giving Jesus words. The Father living in Him doing His work.

The Father is greater.
NIV Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The exact expression or image of the wisdom and power of God=radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being=all that the Father is. In this Jesus is called Mighty God, Prince of Peace, everlasting Father.

Is Jesus God is a yes and no answer depending on context. For Jesus has always been the Son.

Hebrews
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. Now all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son.

Rev
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

This have much in common but we differ in this:Jesus always was and alway was God vs Jesus the firstborn of God and all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The Father has always been Jesus's God and Jesus has always been the Son.

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.

So we differ in our view of the relationship of the Father and Son. Which to me is just that. Father and Son. The Son received wisdom and power and glory from the Father vs One who has always been God and one who always was.

Randy

 

[smaller]

I posted that "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" and the "firstborn of every creature KJV or the firstborn of all creation NKJV and NSRV". Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began. That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him.

I assure you it was the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord over the waters in the beginning (Genesis) At the will and command of the Father which we read He did through the Son. Just as it was the Spirit of the/His Father in the Son giving Jesus words. The Father living in Him doing His work.

The Father is greater.
NIV Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The exact expression or image of the wisdom and power of God=radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being=all that the Father is. In this Jesus is called Mighty God, Prince of Peace, everlasting Father.

Is Jesus God is a yes and no answer depending on context. For Jesus has always been the Son.

Hebrews
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. Now all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son.

Rev
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

This have much in common but we differ in this:Jesus always was and alway was God vs Jesus the firstborn of God and all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The Father has always been Jesus's God and Jesus has always been the Son.

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.

So we differ in our view of the relationship of the Father and Son. Which to me is just that. Father and Son. The Son received wisdom and power and glory from the Father vs One who has always been God and one who always was.

Randy

Part of the difficulty is when trying to see Jesus as a flesh man. We know His Body was made or prepared. BUT this does NOT preclude the eternal existence of The Son, prior to having A BODY, prepared. Heb. 10:5 correlate to Psalm 40:6-8.

Same with first born observations. Jesus had a BODY prepared and that BODY was glorified. This does not preclude the eternal existence of the Son. We know from 1 Peter 1:10-12 that it was the Spirit of Christ that spoke through the prophets.

The "appearance" of God, The Son, into creation is termed a great mystery, for good cause. It is truly that. But it is easy to get side tracked into thinking that the Son was not/is not eternal as One with The Father.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Orthodoxy, imho, has some odd sights on the matters of Jesus resurrection body, though I admit I have not studied their postures in depth. But generally speaking the two major branches of orthodoxy see Jesus as a resurrected fully human, and I can't really fault them for that sight, but we are also advised this:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The Body, in the sense of Jesus' Spiritual Body, comprised even of us, is a much more difficult prospect to "engage" with understandings.

 

[chessman]

I asked:

When did the Son begin to be the radiance/reflection of God ..

You answered:

Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began.

So on your view, before this hypothetical point in history before the universe began, God had no radiance then. A real problem, given your assumption.

That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him.

Again, if God formed Jesus at some hypothetical point in time (prior to the universe) then God had no radiance before that time.

The Son is the radiance of God, remember!

 

[th1b.taylor]

{smaller said:
Part of the difficulty is when trying to see Jesus as a flesh man. We know His Body was made or prepared. BUT this does NOT preclude the eternal existence of The Son, prior to having A BODY, prepared. Heb. 10:5 correlate to Psalm 40:6-8.

Same with first born observations. Jesus had a BODY prepared and that BODY was glorified. This does not preclude the eternal existence of the Son. We know from 1 Peter 1:10-12 that it was the Spirit of Christ that spoke through the prophets.

The "appearance" of God, The Son, into creation is termed a great mystery, for good cause. It is truly that. But it is easy to get side tracked into thinking that the Son was not/is not eternal as One with The Father.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Orthodoxy, imho, has some odd sights on the matters of Jesus resurrection body, though I admit I have not studied their postures in depth. But generally speaking the two major branches of orthodoxy see Jesus as a resurrected fully human, and I can't really fault them for that sight, but we are also advised this:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The Body, in the sense of Jesus' Spiritual Body, comprised even of us, is a much more difficult prospect to "engage" with understandings.[/Quote]
So many avoid the Bible Jesus taught from (The Old Testament) and remain in the Commentaries (The New Testament) instead of looking to see what is being explained, never realizing the true impact of John 1:1-5. It, certainly is a matter worthy of close, intense, inspection but I fear we have grown to comfortable to inspect.

 

[Free]

I posted that "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" and the "firstborn of every creature KJV or the firstborn of all creation NKJV and NSRV". Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began. That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him.

This has already been addressed, more than once. "Firstborn" has more than one meaning and it is the context which determines the meaning being used.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...and-does-it-matter.67346/page-10#post-1269990

The Father is greater.

As I have stated previously, difference in function does not indicate an inferiority in nature.

NIV Hebrews
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Context, Randy. This passage has also been addressed: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...and-does-it-matter.67346/page-10#post-1269990

The exact expression or image of the wisdom and power of God=radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being=all that the Father is. In this Jesus is called Mighty God, Prince of Peace, everlasting Father.

As I stated already, if there was a time when Jesus did not exist, then he cannot be all that the Father is since the Father has always existed, which is precisely one of the attributes that makes him God. Again, a significant contradiction.

Is Jesus God is a yes and no answer depending on context. For Jesus has always been the Son.

This, too, has been addressed several times. This violates the law of noncontradiction. In other words, it is illogical. Can a woman be both pregnant and not-pregnant at the same time, even if one claims it depends on context?

Either Jesus is God or he is not. He cannot be both God and not God depending on the context--the very nature of God, who he is, precludes such a notion. If Jesus is God, then by definition he has always existed as God and always will exist as God, just like the Father. If Jesus isn't God, then by definition, he can never be God.

Hebrews
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. Now all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son.

Again, one needs to look at the context, including the rest of the NT, to understand what definition of "firstborn" is being used here. See the previous link I gave regarding the passage in Hebrews.

Rev
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."

And what do you think this verse is saying? How does it support anything you have previously stated? I'm just asking because I don't see how it is relevant.

This have much in common but we differ in this:Jesus always was and alway was God vs Jesus the firstborn of God and all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.

The difference is the misunderstanding of what "firstborn" means as it relates to Jesus.

 

[WIP]

The topic of this thread is the Trinity and not speaking in tongues. Let's get back to the topic.

 

[Free]

I think its ironic that you claim contradiction. Is Jesus God or is the Father His God and the One true God?

Jesus is God just as the Father is God. There is no contradiction there. I previously posted a passage of Scripture which seems to be continually overlooked by those who don't believe in the Trinity, a passage which is key to understanding just who the Son is and his relationship to the Father:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-and-does-it-matter.67346/page-8#post-1268976

Jesus's spirit is NOT devine. Then you have two Gods. Therefore as you read in the NT all the fullness was given from another.

And so it is we must again look at context. As I posted previously, with no response, the Spirit of Christ is said to also be the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...and-does-it-matter.67346/page-10#post-1269990

You should see that Father has glorified His Son above all His other children.

Of course. The Son is the only and unique Son of God; all other children are children by adoption. Speaking of the glory of the Father, we see in Isaiah:

42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. (ESV)

48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

Yet Jesus himself says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5; ESV).

How can that be? Did God lie or can we suggest that Jesus must be God, since he shared in the glory that Yahweh said he doesn't share?

Hebrews-"about the Son".

Yes, it is about the Son, where the Father calls the Son God, and where the author of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, applies passages that speak of Yahweh in the OT, to the Son.

And if Jesus is not the Fathers Son then whose Son is He?

No one has stated he is not the Father's Son.

And at the sounding of the 7th trump the kingdom of this world shall become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.

Right. And?

 

[WIP]

One thing I struggle with is for those that do not believe in the Trinity, how do they hold Jesus in such a high place of honor and still not violate the 1st Commandment and not have other gods? If Jesus is not God then we are in serious trouble.

 

[Jim Parker]

I posted that "the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" and the "firstborn of every creature KJV or the firstborn of all creation NKJV and NSRV". Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began. That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him.

That is almost precisely the neo-platonist heresy of Arius who taught that Jesus was a created being.
It is heresy.
It is NOT Christianity.
If that's what you believe then your beliefs are NOT Christian.

What qualifies you to correct tens of thousands of real theologians over the past ~2000 years?

 

[Randy]

One think I struggle with is for those that do not believe in the Trinity, how do they hold Jesus in such a high place of honor and still not violate the 1st Commandment and not have other gods? If Jesus is not God then we are in serious trouble.

That is almost precisely the neo-platonist heresy of Arius who taught that Jesus was a created being.
It is heresy.
It is NOT Christianity.
If that's what you believe then your beliefs are NOT Christian.

What qualifies you to correct tens of thousands of real theologians over the past ~2000 years?

You think I am alone? =>"Can anyone explain the trinity?" is a common question. And you don't speak for all theologains. The only reason the current trinity statement still stands is because those who can answer such questions were driven out when their answers weren't liked.
Show me were I quoted "Arius"

I use the OT and the NT as the source of my understanding. Furthermore I am well known by my Lord and He has made Himself known to me. ''
As it is written "He is Firstborn" The Father has always been His God and Jesus has always been the Son.
Randy

 

[Randy]

One think I struggle with is for those that do not believe in the Trinity, how do they hold Jesus in such a high place of honor and still not violate the 1st Commandment and not have other gods? If Jesus is not God then we are in serious trouble.

You are mistaken. Jesus is all that the Father is and the Father is in Him. In fact it was the Father living in Him doing His work. The words/message Jesus spoke was just as the Father commanded Him to state. Jesus knows those words lead to eternal life. As the Father has life in Himself He has granted Jesus life in Himself. All judgment has been placed in Jesus's hands so that those who honor the Father may also honor the Son. He and the Father are One just as Jesus taught. Those who love the Son are loved by the Father who sent Him.
Those who believe the Son believe the very words of God. For is these last days God has spoken to all by His Son.

And as Jesus lives by the living Father we live by Him. And all that belongs to the Father also belongs to Him.

And its not I who struggles with understanding. I have given you understanding.

 

[Randy]

Jesus is God just as the Father is God. There is no contradiction there. I previously posted a passage of Scripture which seems to be continually overlooked by those who don't believe in the Trinity, a passage which is key to understanding just who the Son is and his relationship to the Father:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-and-does-it-matter.67346/page-8#post-1268976


And so it is we must again look at context. As I posted previously, with no response, the Spirit of Christ is said to also be the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...and-does-it-matter.67346/page-10#post-1269990


Of course. The Son is the only and unique Son of God; all other children are children by adoption. Speaking of the glory of the Father, we see in Isaiah:

42:8 I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. (ESV)

48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

Yet Jesus himself says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5; ESV).

How can that be? Did God lie or can we suggest that Jesus must be God, since he shared in the glory that Yahweh said he doesn't share?


Yes, it is about the Son, where the Father calls the Son God, and where the author of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, applies passages that speak of Yahweh in the OT, to the Son.


No one has stated he is not the Father's Son.


Right. And?

In the Son the Father is glorified. He is still God of all. And in fact the fullness was please to dwell in the Son. The Father has glorified the Son. But has not given way His glory. The Spirit is not claimed by the Son as His own. The Father has claimed that Spirit as His own. (being context not owner context) As one would state "my spirit"
Jesus has His own spirit and despite your attempt to stand firm with a reasoning of mystery your theology does not hold to one God if you believe Jesus always was and alway was God.

The Father's promise=>In these last days I will pour out My Spirit...
The Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father. Acts 2 The Spirit was sent in Jesus's name.
Jesus=>The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me.
Jesus=>“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. (Isaiah 54:14)

The Father=>
Isaiah 42:1
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Jesus=>Matt 10:20 (Jesus has experience in this Himself)
....for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
The Son has the Spirit without limit. He commands and the Spirit will act for the Father has given Him such authority.

 

[chessman]

I have given you understanding.

How do you understand God's radiance before the Son was formed by God on your view?

Since you agree with Hebrews that the Son is the very radiance of God (and He is), yet you assume the Son did not exist before the Father created Him (prior to creating the universe as you said), did God have radiance of His glory prior to the Son's creation? Yes/no, on your view?

 

[Randy]

How do you understand God's radiance before the Son was formed by God on your view?

Since you agree with Hebrews that the Son is the very radiance of God (and He is), yet you assume the Son did not exist before the Father created Him (prior to creating the universe as you said), did God have radiance of His glory prior to the Son's creation? Yes/no, on your view?

The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. A God who always was would be that fullness. The Father. We also note in Hebrews "when God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him" and "....the assembly of the Firstborn.."

Now we are at a point where we are going in circles. We continue to repeat and repeat and yet we still disagree.

As I stated I can completed agree with the Apostles Creed. Note a belief in Father and Son and Gods Holy Spirit. We discuss the relationship.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;

And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;*
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic** church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

**universal

 

[chessman]

Now we are at a point where we are going in circles. We continue to repeat and repeat and yet we still disagree.

How can we disagree as I have no idea what you believe concerning my question. You've not answered my question.

You stated the Son is the radiance of God. Good, I agree. It's the Biblical understanding. However, you've also stated that you assume there was a time prior to the Son being formed, which I disagree with on Biblical basis given Hebrews 1:3 (and other passages).

Where I'm confused is what your understanding of God's radiance was before the Son existed, given your assumption. On my view, the Son has always been the very radiance of God. On your view, what/who was the radiance of God before the Son was formed? It's a simple question. And frankly one that you seem to have no answer for.

 

[Randy]

How can we disagree as I have no idea what you believe concerning my question. You've not answered my question.

You stated the Son is the radiance of God. Good, I agree. It's the Biblical understanding. However, you've also stated that you assume there was a time prior to the Son being formed, which I disagree with on Biblical basis given Hebrews 1:3 (and other passages).

Where I'm confused is what your understanding of God's radiance was before the Son existed, given your assumption. On my view, the Son has always been the very radiance of God. On your view, what/who was the radiance of God before the Son was formed? It's a simple question. And frankly one that you seem to have no answer for.

What? The Father existed before His Firstborn's spirit was formed. Jesus has always been the Son. I know you disagree. My assumption is that the fullness was pleased to dwell in the Son at Jesus's beginning. I do not agree "Jesus" always was. He is Gods firstborn. The creation (genesis) was made through Him and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. Jesus is "first" in everything but His God and Our God.

The Father=>I will do all that I am pleased to do.
The Son=>I always do what pleases the "Father" and so remain in His Love.

Jesus=>The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
Jesus=>
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

You believe God has to obey Himself in order that He love Himself? Jesus has His own will, mind and spirit. There is only one true God and as I read from the prophets and the apostles and Jesus that would be the Father. And you guys speak of contractions.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. The Fathers (Gods) Christ.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Jesus in Himself (his spirit) is not devine but for the fact that God was pleased that all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell IN Him. So the end result (the Jesus we know) is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. I would state both Jesus's spirit and the fullness given was at the same point in time. At some point in history before the world began. The Father is in the Son. They are one in that manner.

Randy

 

[chessman]

What?

Do you understand my question below?

On your view, what/who was the radiance of God before the Son was formed?

 

[civilwarbuff]

What? The Father existed before His Firstborn's spirit was formed. Jesus has always been the Son. I know you disagree. My assumption is that the fullness was pleased to dwell in the Son at Jesus's beginning. I do not agree "Jesus" always was. He is Gods firstborn. The creation (genesis) was made through Him and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. Jesus is "first" in everything but His God and Our God.

The Father=>I will do all that I am pleased to do.
The Son=>I always do what pleases the "Father" and so remain in His Love.

Jesus=>The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
Jesus=>
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

You believe God has to obey Himself in order that He love Himself? Jesus has His own will, mind and spirit. There is only one true God and as I read from the prophets and the apostles and Jesus that would be the Father. And you guys speak of contractions.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. The Fathers (Gods) Christ.

Randy

I need a little clearing up here if you don't mind.
When you use the name Jesus are you referring to the man form of God who dwelled with us physically on earth?.....or the Logos/Son of God who is of the same essence as the Father and has existed before all time?......or both?

 

[Jim Parker]

You think I am alone?

No. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.
The United Pentecostal Church teaches Modalism.
Christian Scientists deny the deity of Christ.
You are not alone; there are many heretical groups.

"Can anyone explain the trinity?" is a common question.

The most common answer is "NO." It's a mystery. (See Deut 29:29)

And you don't speak for all theologains.

No I do not. There are many theologians who are also heretics.
However, the Church has spoken for Christianity and Christianity is Trinitarian.
And, as I asked before, what qualifies you to refute what the church has taught for almost 2000 years?
What do you know that the thousands of real theologians have missed for the past two millennia?

The only reason the current trinity statement still stands is because those who can answer such questions were driven out when their answers weren't liked.

Right. The Church has never liked heretical answers or those w
And the "current" Trinitarian definition has stood for 1600 years. Prior to the 4th century, there were not significant heretical challenges to the Trinity.

Show me were I quoted "Arius"

Your post #380: "Since Paul is defining Jesus's being my assumption would be these two events were together at some point in history before the world began. That is God formed Jesus first and was pleased in His firstborn to have all "His" fullness (power and wisdom) dwell in Him."
That makes Jesus a creature and not God. That is what Arius taught.
That you do not know that reveals a significant gap in your knowledge of Christian Doctrine.

I use the OT and the NT as the source of my understanding.

You use YOUR VERY LIMITED UNDERSTANDING of a translation of the OT and NT.
The JWs do the same. The Worldwide Church of God did the same. The UPCI does the same. You are not different from any other group that has come up with heretical ideas using the Bible as their only source.
Why should anyone pay any more attention to your heresy than they pay to the heresy of the other heretics?
You're just revisiting a heresy that was rejected almost 1700 years ago.

As it is written "He is Firstborn" The Father has always been His God and Jesus has always been the Son.

It is also written: (John 1:1) Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
And it says: (John1:14) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
Those two verses specifically state that (1) the Logos was God and that (2) the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. (As Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, the Son of God.)
At Luke 1:35 we are given the reason why Jesus was called the Son of God: 1:35 ... Πνεῦμα ἅγιον ἐπελεύσεται ἐπὶ σέ καὶ δύναμις ὑψίστου ἐπισκιάσει σοι διὸ καὶ τὸ γεννώμενον ἅγιον κληθήσεται υἱὸς θεοῦ.

If you are going to use the OT and NT as "your source document" then take the time to read the whole thing.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.