Granting repentance for those who oppose

[PeterJens]

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

I was discussing some theological points on a forum. Various members opposed my points, though they were simply
walk in Jesus's ways and commands, that is our calling.

It was obvious that for them this meant earning ones salvation, rather than a reflection of Gods love working through
their hearts. What made this worse is they would continually tell me I approached this from a self-righteous attitude,
I was evil and deceived, needed to repent, and saw failure as inevitable, and any sense of knowing victory or growth
was delusion.

I thought in my own mind it was their teaching or experience that led them to think like this. With such ferocity and
anger, I began to realise it was spiritual. And their attacks were such as I was the evil enemy, for some worse than
horrendous disasters or the worst evil. So this was my quandry. Are they saved to speak like this, deluded, judgemental,
hurt, lost?

Based on this verse, it appears they have fallen into a trap of the devil. They will never be free until God grants them
repentance. This leads me to be cautious. What has encouraged me over their obvious condemnation and vehement
antagonism, was Paul saying this

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

Now some will go, I am not pure, and a holy life sounds way beyond where I am.
This is where I was, until I realised, this is just the starting place. It is up to us to learn what is purity, what is
holy, what does God regard as right behaviour and why do we find it so hard?

I regard this as God saying, see that mountain, you have the equipment, you have the strength, it seems impossible
but I have given you everything you need, start walking.

Another analogy is, How are we meant to react when we come to faith?
Does a liar continue to lie? Does a thief continue to steal? Does a murderer continue to murder?
Does a sexually immoral person continue in sexual miss-behaviour?

Now the answer is no. If it is anything else one is not saved. The point is Jesus is calling us to a new life, a different
way of being and having life, relationships, sharing, working living. But to talk to some, nothing changing except
faith is actually Gods way. But this is not true, as the John the Baptist said "
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Matt 3:8

Listening to some, they believe knowing Christ is just revelation, anything else is hypocrisy.

I have realised from 2 tim 2:24 actually these people are trapped, and only maybe God will grant them repentance.
It maybe harsh, but God is declaring the reality not me.

 

[Knotical]

This may be semantics but when you use the term, "God granting repentance." Are you actually referring to forgiveness?

The reason I ask is God, through the Holy Spirit, will open our eyes to the fact that we are sinners, and will show us, through a process, the sins for which we need to repent. Once we are shown our sins it is up to us, with God's help, to repent and ask forgiveness. It is then God grants us forgiveness for those sins we repent of and ask forgiveness.

 

[PeterJens]

This may be semantics but when you use the term, "God granting repentance." Are you actually referring to forgiveness?

The reason I ask is God, through the Holy Spirit, will open our eyes to the fact that we are sinners, and will show us, through a process, the sins for which we need to repent. Once we are shown our sins it is up to us, with God's help, to repent and ask forgiveness. It is then God grants us forgiveness for those sins we repent of and ask forgiveness.

This is the question I have about this point Paul is making.
We are taught and guided by the Holy Spirit. Some come with a different intent and teaching.
Paul appears to be saying our views come to a degree from God himself.
So some will disagree because of the spiritual foundation they have.

I have found this in discussions, that whatever I wrote, people saw something else than what is
clearly there in scripture and Christs leading. In witnessing until people open up with a humble
heart they often stay stuck in their own framework.

So it appears Paul is saying it is not a matter of changing ones mind, but sin is involved, and only
through Gods revelation will it become clear. Now this is quite a different perspective than I have
held in the past. And this is why I am interested in others opinion on this verse and Pauls meaning.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Thank you for posting 2 Timothy 2:24-26. I NEEDED this to cement what the Holy Spirit is asking of me in my personal relationships currently.

 

[WIP]

Thank you for posting 2 Timothy 2:24-26. I NEEDED this to cement what the Holy Spirit is asking of me in my personal relationships currently.

Something we must be careful about is that we follow the entire reference, offering correction to error BUT to do so gently.

 

[Knotical]

This is the question I have about this point Paul is making.
We are taught and guided by the Holy Spirit. Some come with a different intent and teaching.
Paul appears to be saying our views come to a degree from God himself.
So some will disagree because of the spiritual foundation they have.

I have found this in discussions, that whatever I wrote, people saw something else than what is
clearly there in scripture and Christs leading. In witnessing until people open up with a humble
heart they often stay stuck in their own framework.

So it appears Paul is saying it is not a matter of changing ones mind, but sin is involved, and only
through Gods revelation will it become clear. Now this is quite a different perspective than I have
held in the past. And this is why I am interested in others opinion on this verse and Pauls meaning.

The best rule of thumb you have when discussing matters of doctrine or theology is to test it against the bible. If what anyone is suggesting does not jive with what the bible teaches the conversation would pretty much have to end there. Unless the person in error is willing to listen to further explanation. If they are not then it is almost impossible to continue the conversation, and ultimately not worthwhile.

 

[for_his_glory]

When coming into forums and sharing what we learn can become a battlefield at times when others disagree with us. I've been called all sorts of nasty things in what I present and the trick is to not let it bother you. We are all teachable and there are others more knowledgeable then our self at times. We are to try the spirits that are teaching us to know truth from error, 1 John 4:1-6, and if they be in error and you are positive they are then explain why they are with scripture and if they scoff at you then just walk away as we are individually held accountable to Christ for what we have learned and taught others.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[LovethroughDove]

Something we must be careful about is that we follow the entire reference, offering correction to error BUT to do so gently.

The part that really struck a chord, was the not out of resentfulness (but humility). The only people I have a hard time correcting without being resentful is my family. Everyone else I have no problems with just saying it like it is. My family pushes my buttons, but I guess it is not necessarily them who is doing it. I almost feel like giving up on my family with spiritual things because I can't deliver my message without them taking it the absolute wrong way. Sorry to bring this up in the Theology section.

 

[Jim Parker]

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

I was discussing some theological points on a forum. Various members opposed my points, though they were simply
walk in Jesus's ways and commands, that is our calling.

It was obvious that for them this meant earning ones salvation, rather than a reflection of Gods love working through
their hearts. What made this worse is they would continually tell me I approached this from a self-righteous attitude,
I was evil and deceived, needed to repent, and saw failure as inevitable, and any sense of knowing victory or growth
was delusion.

I thought in my own mind it was their teaching or experience that led them to think like this. With such ferocity and
anger, I began to realise it was spiritual. And their attacks were such as I was the evil enemy, for some worse than
horrendous disasters or the worst evil. So this was my quandry. Are they saved to speak like this, deluded, judgemental,
hurt, lost?

Based on this verse, it appears they have fallen into a trap of the devil. They will never be free until God grants them
repentance. This leads me to be cautious. What has encouraged me over their obvious condemnation and vehement
antagonism, was Paul saying this

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

Now some will go, I am not pure, and a holy life sounds way beyond where I am.
This is where I was, until I realised, this is just the starting place. It is up to us to learn what is purity, what is
holy, what does God regard as right behaviour and why do we find it so hard?

I regard this as God saying, see that mountain, you have the equipment, you have the strength, it seems impossible
but I have given you everything you need, start walking.

Another analogy is, How are we meant to react when we come to faith?
Does a liar continue to lie? Does a thief continue to steal? Does a murderer continue to murder?
Does a sexually immoral person continue in sexual miss-behaviour?

Now the answer is no. If it is anything else one is not saved. The point is Jesus is calling us to a new life, a different
way of being and having life, relationships, sharing, working living. But to talk to some, nothing changing except
faith is actually Gods way. But this is not true, as the John the Baptist said "
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Matt 3:8

Listening to some, they believe knowing Christ is just revelation, anything else is hypocrisy.

I have realised from 2 tim 2:24 actually these people are trapped, and only maybe God will grant them repentance.
It maybe harsh, but God is declaring the reality not me.

It is a sign of the apostasy of the churches that teach such doctrine that they refuse to teach their members that, to be a disciple of Christ, it is necessary to ACT like a disciple of Christ. And, to do so, it is necessary for the believer to make the free will choice to do what the scriptures teach we should do and to co-operate with God by following the leading of the Holy Spirit.

This is not new. In his book, The Cost of Discipleship, Dietrich Bonhoeffer described what he called "cheap grace." HE coined that term because, in the 1930s, in Germany, that was what was being preached. You know what followed.

“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession...Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.”

iakov the fool

 

[MCoop]

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

I was discussing some theological points on a forum. Various members opposed my points, though they were simply
walk in Jesus's ways and commands, that is our calling.

It was obvious that for them this meant earning ones salvation, rather than a reflection of Gods love working through
their hearts. What made this worse is they would continually tell me I approached this from a self-righteous attitude,
I was evil and deceived, needed to repent, and saw failure as inevitable, and any sense of knowing victory or growth
was delusion.

I thought in my own mind it was their teaching or experience that led them to think like this. With such ferocity and
anger, I began to realise it was spiritual. And their attacks were such as I was the evil enemy, for some worse than
horrendous disasters or the worst evil. So this was my quandry. Are they saved to speak like this, deluded, judgemental,
hurt, lost?

Based on this verse, it appears they have fallen into a trap of the devil. They will never be free until God grants them
repentance. This leads me to be cautious. What has encouraged me over their obvious condemnation and vehement
antagonism, was Paul saying this

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

Now some will go, I am not pure, and a holy life sounds way beyond where I am.
This is where I was, until I realised, this is just the starting place. It is up to us to learn what is purity, what is
holy, what does God regard as right behaviour and why do we find it so hard?

I regard this as God saying, see that mountain, you have the equipment, you have the strength, it seems impossible
but I have given you everything you need, start walking.

Another analogy is, How are we meant to react when we come to faith?
Does a liar continue to lie? Does a thief continue to steal? Does a murderer continue to murder?
Does a sexually immoral person continue in sexual miss-behaviour?

Now the answer is no. If it is anything else one is not saved. The point is Jesus is calling us to a new life, a different
way of being and having life, relationships, sharing, working living. But to talk to some, nothing changing except
faith is actually Gods way. But this is not true, as the John the Baptist said "
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Matt 3:8

Listening to some, they believe knowing Christ is just revelation, anything else is hypocrisy.

I have realised from 2 tim 2:24 actually these people are trapped, and only maybe God will grant them repentance.
It maybe harsh, but God is declaring the reality not me.

It means what it says. Only God can open the heart and give understanding. Only God grants repentance. All you can do is proclaim the truth. One plants, the other waters, but it is God alone who gives the increase.. no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. John 6:65. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48. Man is Spiritually dead and unable and unwilling to come to Christ in repentance apart from regeneration. It is why Jesus said, unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

 

[OzSpen]

The best rule of thumb you have when discussing matters of doctrine or theology is to test it against the bible. If what anyone is suggesting does not jive with what the bible teaches the conversation would pretty much have to end there. Unless the person in error is willing to listen to further explanation. If they are not then it is almost impossible to continue the conversation, and ultimately not worthwhile.

Knotical,

What if they say, 'That's your interpretation. Mine is different'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It means what it says. Only God can open the heart and give understanding. Only God grants repentance. All you can do is proclaim the truth. One plants, the other waters, but it is God alone who gives the increase.. no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. John 6:65. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48. Man is Spiritually dead and unable and unwilling to come to Christ in repentance apart from regeneration. It is why Jesus said, unless a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

We also need to remember John 12:32, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (NIV).

 

[Razeontherock]

And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

I was discussing some theological points on a forum. Various members opposed my points, though they were simply
walk in Jesus's ways and commands, that is our calling.

It was obvious that for them this meant earning ones salvation, rather than a reflection of Gods love working through
their hearts. What made this worse is they would continually tell me I approached this from a self-righteous attitude,
I was evil and deceived, needed to repent, and saw failure as inevitable, and any sense of knowing victory or growth
was delusion.

I thought in my own mind it was their teaching or experience that led them to think like this. With such ferocity and
anger, I began to realise it was spiritual. And their attacks were such as I was the evil enemy, for some worse than
horrendous disasters or the worst evil. So this was my quandry. Are they saved to speak like this, deluded, judgemental,
hurt, lost?

Based on this verse, it appears they have fallen into a trap of the devil. They will never be free until God grants them
repentance. This leads me to be cautious. What has encouraged me over their obvious condemnation and vehement
antagonism, was Paul saying this

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

Now some will go, I am not pure, and a holy life sounds way beyond where I am.
This is where I was, until I realised, this is just the starting place. It is up to us to learn what is purity, what is
holy, what does God regard as right behaviour and why do we find it so hard?

I regard this as God saying, see that mountain, you have the equipment, you have the strength, it seems impossible
but I have given you everything you need, start walking.

Another analogy is, How are we meant to react when we come to faith?
Does a liar continue to lie? Does a thief continue to steal? Does a murderer continue to murder?
Does a sexually immoral person continue in sexual miss-behaviour?

Now the answer is no. If it is anything else one is not saved. The point is Jesus is calling us to a new life, a different
way of being and having life, relationships, sharing, working living. But to talk to some, nothing changing except
faith is actually Gods way. But this is not true, as the John the Baptist said "
"Produce fruit in keeping with repentance." Matt 3:8

Listening to some, they believe knowing Christ is just revelation, anything else is hypocrisy.

I have realised from 2 tim 2:24 actually these people are trapped, and only maybe God will grant them repentance.
It maybe harsh, but God is declaring the reality not me.

Some things God won't let us share effectively because He wants to be the one to do it. He takes pleasure in our company, and even with those we don't like.

Lord have Mercy!

 

[WIP]

We also need to remember John 12:32, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (NIV).

This verse came up in our adult Bible study this week and it jumped out at me. Couple this verse with Romans 1:18-20, shown below, and what it says to me is that there is no one on earth that has an excuse. God has revealed Himself and we have all been called but not all have responded.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[PeterJens]

I agree with all thats been shared.

If we know Christ and walk in His will, the people of God will agree with what we share. Amen.

 

[Knotical]

Knotical,

What if they say, 'That's your interpretation. Mine is different'.

Oz

It still has to be tested against the bible. If someone's "interpretation" doesn't hold up against the scrutiny of the bible then it must be considered false.

 

[OzSpen]

This verse came up in our adult Bible study this week and it jumped out at me. Couple this verse with Romans 1:18-20, shown below, and what it says to me is that there is no one on earth that has an excuse. God has revealed Himself and we have all been called but not all have responded.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

WIP,

I agree! There is a free will aspect where people can choose to accept or reject the offer of salvation.

Calvinists often quote John 6:44 to me: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day'. I agree 100% as long as one includes John 12:32.

I struggle with how a person who has never heard the Gospel can understanding the drawing of God the Father. People are 'without excuse' regarding the evidence for God revealed in creation (Rom 1:20). That's evidence from creation but I can't see this as evidence that includes access to proclamation of the Gospel.

Wycliffe Global Alliance claims:

As of 1 October 2017, over 114 million people, speaking 1636 languages, are likely to need some form of Bible translation to begin (source).​

How can these people hear the Gospel, unless there are missionaries among these language groups that are sharing the Gospel through oral tradition? I don't know how many of these language groups have active missionaries proclaiming the Gospel.

I'd be interested in knowing how the members of this forum understand the situation of reaching these language groups that have no Bible.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It still has to be tested against the bible. If someone's "interpretation" doesn't hold up against the scrutiny of the bible then it must be considered false.

What principles of interpretation will be used to test a doctrine against the Bible?

 

[chessman]

I'd be interested in knowing how the members of this forum understand the situation of reaching these language groups that have no Bible.

Very perceptive point of inquiry:

By spreading the Gospel message IN the languages of the world in a way they can understand! If you have skills in their language, use them. If you have money (or items of value such as Mary used her perfume to spread the aroma of Christ’s washed feet), use it to spread the Gospel mystery to ALL that desire to worship God.

Now some of the ones going up in order that they might worship at the Feast were Greeks. If anyone [Greek or Jew] serves Me, let him [Greek or Jew] be following Me. ​

...​

And where I am, there also My servant [Greek or Jew] will be. If anyone [Greek or Jew] serves Me, the Father will honor him.​

...​

Now My soul has been troubled. And what should I say— ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this reason I came to this hour [For the spread of the Gospel mystery beyond the Jews who didn’t even understand it then either]! Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice [in what language???] came from heaven: “I both glorified it, and will again glorify it ”. ​

[The name above all other names of the world]​

...​

Then the crowd [some Greek speakers, some Hebrew speakers, none angelic language speakers however], the one standing there and having heard, was saying that thunder had taken place. Others were saying, “ An angel has spoken to Him”. Jesus responded and said, “This voice has taken place not for My sake, but for your sakes [Greeks and Jews]. Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world [a fallen angel] will be cast out! ​

...​

And if I am lifted-up from the earth, I will draw all people [both Gentiles and Jews, all peoples and languages of this world] to Myself ”. Now He was saying this signifying by what-kind-of death He was going to die. [a death at the hands of both the Jewish leaders and Gentile leaders, think of the three languages of the charges on the cross]​

...​

Then the crowd [Greeks and Jews] responded to Him, “ We heard from the Law (LXX) that the Christ remains forever. How indeed do You say that ‘The Son of Man must be lifted-up’? Who is this Son of Man [Both Greeks and Jews were there, but it was only those “desiring to worship” God IAW their understanding of “THE LAW”, yet they (even His disciples) didn’t yet understand what Jesus’s death meant to THEM (those “people” from non-Jewish nations desiring to worship God IAW The Jewish Law that didn’t even allow them entrance into the Temple at that time)]?”​

...​

Then Jesus said to them, “The Light [i.e. the light of the world] is among you for a short time longer. Be walking while you have the Light, in order that darkness may not overtake you. Indeed the one walking in the darkness does not know where he is going.​

John 12:20,26-35 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 12:20,26-35&version=DLNT

John 12:32 (and the Gospel itself) is about the spread of God worship to all those “desiring to worship”, from the context. It has nothing to do with those NOT desiring to worship God but rather desiring to serve the ruler of this world.

 

[Knotical]

What principles of interpretation will be used to test a doctrine against the Bible?

There is a myriad of ways. But the best ways is to first approach a trusted pastor or elder for guidance. From there you can seek out commentaries. But even then you have to test it against what the bible actually says. Ultimately, if you have been blessed by the Holy Spirit He will open your eyes to the things God wants you to know.

Do not rely on your own understanding. That is where people are running into issues. They are coming to some sort of "interpretation" of a specific passage, but it is ultimately their own understanding. It was not imparted to them by the Holy Spirit.