What is a man?

[GodsGrace]

I use the KJV because it's not copyrighted in America. I do accept other versions as legitimate. Although I do believe there are errors in the translations. That they others use living person or being strengthens my point that the soul is a living being.

The spirit. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated spirit all mean wind, or breath, breath is wind. The English word spirit is a figurative usage of these Greek and Hebrew words. So, when we see the word spirit we have to understand that it is a figure of speech. The English word spirit has a it's definition the idea of a disembodied living being. The Greek and Hebrew words do not have this meaning. This creates a problem when the English reader imposes this English definition on the Greek and Hebrew words.

The breath or spirit is something of God. It is not of man. God put this into Adam and this breath or spirit gave Adam life. When the man dies we are told that this breath of spirit, part of God, returns to Him and the man, the body returns to dust. This breath is in every living being, man and animal. Job tells us that if God were to retrieve it all flesh would die.

I agree that the spirit gives life to man.
When God breathed into Adam,,,,Adam was a dead form of dirt...In fact the word Adam does have something to do with dirt, or the color of dirt in that part of the world...I believe it means red dirt...but am not absolutely sure. It definitely means dirt....so,

Man was dead and had no life. God breathed life into man...man became alive and then God told man to multiply and gave to man all necessary means to multiply - just as God gave this same
capacity to plants and animals.
Genesis 1:24-25 All were to reproduce "after their own kind".
And, in fact, this is what we see in nature.

AFTER the fall, man remained alive but was the spirit of God still in him? Is the spirit of God in ALL men or just those that are born again? This is an important question to answer and will become key in this discussion.

An unsaved man does not have the spirit of God dwelling within him. Luke 11:13 tells us, in Jesus' words, that we must ASK for the Holy Spirit. And, we all know that in baptism the Holy Spirit is received in an indwelling way.

Can we agree that only the saved persons that seek God have the indwelling of the Holy Spirt?

Can we agree that this is different from that original FORCE that God breathed into Adam...

Can we agree that this force was lost after the fall when Adam was banished from the Garden and curses put upon him?

12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13 Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?1
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;1
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:12-15 KJV)

I agree but maybe not in the way that you understand the above.
I have to assume you're a Trinitarian....God is Father, Son, Spirit.
The above is referring to God's Spirit....
This is a common belief. God upholds everything,,,If He stopped upholding the universe, it would collapse.
Colossians 1:17
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

God holds all things together.
2 Peter 3:7
Hebrews 1:3

Job uses the words God's spirit...
Surely he means the Holy Spirit...
Job is the oldest book in the bible and revelation came to be more exact as time went by.
Gods' Spirit = The Holy Spirit

Solomon also tells us that man and animal all have this same breath.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.1
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?1 (Eccl. 3:18-21 KJV)

So, this breath or spirit of life is in all flesh. Paul tells us that God is giving life to all things. He uses the present tense to indicate that God is giving it, not gave it.

Yes, the life is in all things...the life is in the blood,
Leviticus 17:11a
11‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood

Certainly the Spirit is not in the blood.
Spirit, in Genesis, means life....
In Genesis 2:7 we read that God breathed LIFE into the man,
I don't understand this to be the Spirit of God....the Holy Spirit.


This breath or spirit is in everyone and upon death it returns to God.
[/QUOTE]

The spirit of the BORN AGAIN BELIEVER returns to God.
Not everyone has this spirit.

My point is:
1. God breathed the breath of LIFE into man.
2. Even if it WAS the Spirit of God,,,it was lost at the fall.
3. Unsaved persons do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling...so what would return to God?

 

[GodsGrace]

I would submit that just using a name doesn't necessitate that it's literal. He could have used a name because the name was a part of the parable. Let me say at the beginning that I believe the parable is about the judgment of the Jewish leadership. Here's why I submit that it's parable. For one thing, the participants are said to be dead. If they're taking and moving they're not dead. However, we find that the parable is spoken to the Pharisees, not the disciples. Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leadership. The disciples had asked Jesus why He spoke to them in parables.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matt. 13:10-13 KJV)

Jesus spoke to the Jews in parables. Notice He says that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. The point of the parable was that they not understand it. So Jesus was saying something that they wouldn't understand. It seems millions have had no problem understanding Lazarus and the Rich Man as a story about life after death, so, that's obviously not the intended meaning if the purpose was to say something they wouldn't understand.

Mathew also said that Jesus didn't speak to them except in parables. I think that pretty much tells us that it's a parable.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)

Also, the details of the parable are telling. The rich man had five brothers, Levi, had five brothers. The priesthood came from the tribe of Levi. The rich man wore purple and fine linen. The priesthood wore purple and fine linen. Remember Jesus had told the Jews that they would see people coming from the east and west to sit down with Abraham in the Kingdom while they were cast out. What do we see here, Lazarus sitting down with Abraham while the the rich man, the Jew, was cast out.

There's a lot more to be said on this parable but I don't what to let it get to long. I believe Lazarus symbolizes Jesus and the reason Jesus gave the man is that Lazarus, is the Greek form of Eleazor which means, God help or God is my help. It's found in Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 50. Note that Jesus refers to being smitten. The parable says that dogs licked Lazarus' sores. Jesus referred to the Gentiles and dogs. Who received Jesus and who rejected Him? Lazarus was covered in sores. What happened before the crucifixion? Jesus was covered in sores.

As I said, there's a lot more that can said on this parable.

I believe there are different reasons why Jesus spoke in parables.
I hesitate to get into this now because it really will derail this entire thread. It could be a different thread...maybe next week. I'll start it.

I'll just comment on the following statement of yours:
Mathew also said that Jesus didn't speak to them except in parables. I think that pretty much tells us that it's a parable.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Matt. 13:34 KJV)


Jesus spoke to the MULTITUDES in parables...In Luke 16 do you believe Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees or to the Disciples?

BTW, Jesus did not always use parables.
See Matthew 5, 24, John 6.......and more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Night! I can also give you a link to some videos that go into much more detail than I can on this forum if you'd like.

You could post the videos for all to see...they might be interested.
I really go by what I've learned in two different denominational churches.

But it's always good to know more and see what others think and why.

 

[JLB]

This may require another thread. I get my understanding of what a person is from Genesis 2:7

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

I understand that man consists of the elements of the earth. That he is infused with God's breath or spirit, same word. I believe that this combination of the man and the breath of God became a living soul. So, a soul is the whole person, body and breath of God. The spirit or breath in man is not man but God's. And man is simply a flesh being. So, I don't believe that man is immortal. I believe that when a man dies, the breath or spirit that God put in the man returns to God because it is something of God. When the breath leaves the soul the soul ceases to exist as it consists of two things the breath of God and the body. When one part is gone the soul ceases. I believe the body returns to the dust. So, that means when a man is dead, he is dead. He's not in Heaven or being tormented somewhere. He's not in a state of limbo. He's dead.

wondering

That is how Adam the son of God was created by the Lord Himself.


This is not how Seth was created, because he were begotten of Adam.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. Genesis 5:1-3


If you decide to project how Adam was created directly by God, to Adam’s offspring, then you will have a convoluted perspective about this topic.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No apologies necessary. I've misunderstood people too. It's not hard when there are so many posts and people saying different things.

I do believe that people will be resurrected. It's just that I don't believe that people are alive during the time between death and the resurrection. A lot of Christians hold to dualism which is the belief that man is a soul and/or spirit that can live apart from the body. Many who hold to the "Immortal Soul" doctrine believe that this soul and/or spirit never dies, but just the body dies. I don't hold this position. I believe that man is a single flesh being that is infused with the breath of life from God. This breath is what gives man life. The Scriptures also tell us that this breath or spirit, same word, gives man understanding. So, our ability to think and reason comes from the breath of life that God places in man to make him alive. I don't believe that this breath/spirit is anything of man, but rather is of God. So, when the Scriptures speak of man's breath/spirit or the breath/spirit in man I believe it is this breath of life from God that is being spoken of. I don't believe there is any other breath/spirit in man.

There is nothing in Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die. There are a few passages that people think support this idea, but upon close examination it can be seen that they don't support the claim. I don't believe people got to Heaven at all. I believe that God will restore the earth and believers will spend eternity on this earth.

Here is the link. There is a series on the doctrine of man. It is quite lengthy and will take some time to go through. If you have any questions let me know I can probably answer them.

BBI Module 3

4Winds Fellowships

4windsfellowships.net

Correction Butch, Sorry
But this is going to be important in this particular thread or I would have left it alone.

Your definition of dualism in incorrect:
Dualism is a heresy whereby it is believed that there are two Great Gods: A good god and an evil god.

What you are speaking of above is called DICHOTOMY.

Dichotomy believers hold that man is made of TWO PARTS:
BODY
SOUL AND SPIRIT (COMBINED)

Trichotomy believers (me) hold that man is made of THREE PARTS:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT (soul and spirit are separated).

The reason why I believe this will become apparent.

 

[GodsGrace]

I look at the the verses that support the view that we will be before God when we die and to be honest, their not very strong. That quote "for to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ" in 1 Cor 15 is probably the best one and it's not very convincing.

On the other had just look at all those passages I quoted in the 26th post of this thread. Not only are they convincing but they come from every part of the bible.

Add to that the problem of trying to explain what Sheol and Hades are, most Christian doctrines have heaven and hell and no other place.

Im not committing myself to any particular position on this topic anyway.
As with many other topics I view with uncertainty.

It's good to view topics not well understood with uncertainty.
This is far better than being dogmatic about something we're not sure about.

Some comments:

The O.T. is not very specific about what happens after death.
For example, the Pharisees, at the time of Jesus, believed in life after death. The Sadducees did not.

There are three terms for "hell" in the Hebrew language.
Gehenna
Sheoul
Hades

Each one means something different. I'll bet you could google this. If not, I'll be happy to explain.

I'd like to address this question of whether or not we live after death...immediately after death.

I'd like you to know that the CC believes we do. Also, most churches believe we do except for the SDA church, which I t hink I've already stated. Butch5 may be one, or perhaps not. No matter..we'll still discuss this.

In John 5:28-29 we read that persons will come to life to be judged.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This was said by the same Jesus that said to one of the thieves on the cross:

Luke 23:42-43
42And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

So, we seem to have conflicting statements.
But are they?

Did Jesus not know what would happen to man after death?

1. Jesus said all will come forth from the tombs to be judged.
But wait..aren't we already judged if we're saved? Jesus said this too....
John 3:18
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2. Jesus said "this very day" you will be with Me in paradise.
Where's Paradise?


As to item 1....we are judged already before we die if we believe in our Savior.
There is a second judgement. It's called the White Throne Judgement and is the one you speak of in Revelation.
At that time,,,at the end of the world,,,ALL will appear before God and the evil will be sent to the Lake of Fire.
This is also known as the 3rd death.
The 1st is physical
The 2nd is spiritual
The 3rd is eternal

This is the only way to reconcile the apparently conflicting statements Jesus made...and we know they cannot conflict.

Item 2...THAT VERY DAY the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise.
Paradise is the greek word that was used for Hades, in Hebrew.
Hades is the place spoken of in Luke 16:19-31

This is where everyone went BEFORE THE CROSS...the saved by faith waiting in Abraham's bossom, verse 22
And the rest were across the chasm in hell already.

When Jesus died on the cross the gates of heaven were opened...
and all those awaiting the Messiah were freed from Hades...
Matthew 27:50-51

If you put all of the above in order, it will make sense to you.

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


Verse 6 states that while we are in the body,,,we are not with the Lord. IOW,,, while we are alive in our body.

Verse 8 states that he would prefer to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. IOW,,, Paul would rather be dead AND AT HOME WITH THE LORD. This sounds immediate, doesn't it? And agrees with the statements made by Jesus.

What happens immediately at death is different than what happens at the resurrection.

It will become apparent that this is why it's important to understand HOW MAN IS MADE.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is how Adam the son of God was created by the Lord Himself.


This is not how Seth was created, because he were begotten of Adam.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. Genesis 5:1-3


If you decide to project how Adam was created directly by God, to Adam’s offspring, then you will have a convoluted perspective about this topic.



JLB

Right !
I brought this up earlier.
Each species that was made by God was given the capability of reproducing itself....Genesis 1:22, 24, 25.....

Good point. Adam was made by God,,,but his offspring were not.
(and yet, they still had life....so the concept of life being the Spirit cannot be correct -- Gen 2:7).

 

[GodsGrace]

I look at the the verses that support the view that we will be before God when we die and to be honest, their not very strong. That quote "for to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ" in 1 Cor 15 is probably the best one and it's not very convincing.

On the other had just look at all those passages I quoted in the 26th post of this thread. Not only are they convincing but they come from every part of the bible.

Add to that the problem of trying to explain what Sheol and Hades are, most Christian doctrines have heaven and hell and no other place.

Im not committing myself to any particular position on this topic anyway.
As with many other topics I view with uncertainty.

Butch5 i was hoping for a link to an explanation of this. You have given me a catalog of countless long sermons that would take a life time to watch... LoL... It's too much mate

Most of your verses were about the resurrection.
We could go through each one if you like.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is the way that I understand it. Were triune beings, spirit/soul and body with the body being only a temporary house for us to dwell in here on earth.

And to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. I do not believe in soul sleep. The Lord said I am not the God of the dead but the living. So to die in the flesh is just to depart from our "house" dwelling here and go to be with the Lord.

And if you think about it, we will have eternal life because we have been redeemed and saved by our Lord...so technically speaking...our eternity has already begun. We're just babes still. They say the first hundred years are the hardest, lol.

 

[Butch5]

I look at the the verses that support the view that we will be before God when we die and to be honest, their not very strong. That quote "for to be absent in body ,is to be present with Christ" in 1 Cor 15 is probably the best one and it's not very convincing.

On the other had just look at all those passages I quoted in the 26th post of this thread. Not only are they convincing but they come from every part of the bible.

Add to that the problem of trying to explain what Sheol and Hades are, most Christian doctrines have heaven and hell and no other place.

Im not committing myself to any particular position on this topic anyway.
As with many other topics I view with uncertainty.

Butch5 i was hoping for a link to an explanation of this. You have given me a catalog of countless long sermons that would take a life time to watch... LoL... It's too much mate

It is a lot. But it's not your typical, "this is what the Bible says", look at these verses. He goes through, lays out the evidence, and let's you make the decision. For instance, to answer the question "what happens to people when they die?", instead of just grabbing a bunch of passages, he starts out with the question, "what is a man"?

By doing this he sets up a framework within which one can build a solid foundation for doctrine. Because of this one is able to go through the Bible to support one's position.

If you're just interested in what a man is, the first seven videos or audios pretty much cover that. I have another series that I'm hoping to get permission to post on my website that is a little more focused. It's still pretty long but, it deals more directly with what a man is and what happens to him after he dies.

I usually listen to the audio when I'm driving. I have about an hour and half ride to work so I just listen as I drive.

 

[Butch5]

That is how Adam the son of God was created by the Lord Himself.


This is not how Seth was created, because he were begotten of Adam.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. Genesis 5:1-3


If you decide to project how Adam was created directly by God, to Adam’s offspring, then you will have a convoluted perspective about this topic.



JLB

We're the same thing a Adam was. We consist of the same elements, we're human. The Scriptures tell us that we have the breath of life from God in us. All flesh does. I don't see any difference other than God created Adam and the rest of us have been reproduced from Adam. We still consist of the same elements.

 

[Christ the King]

It's good to view topics not well understood with uncertainty.
This is far better than being dogmatic about something we're not sure about.

Ye it's the only way I believe

There are three terms for "hell" in the Hebrew language.
Gehenna
Sheoul
Hades

That's not what I read.
I read that Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek.
You don't see Sheol at all in the NT as it was written in Greek
Sheol is all over the OT which was Hebrew.
The source went on to say that the two words mean the same thing but that there is no direct translation for it in English. It's not hell

I only read one source and should probably look at others but take this passage from Johns Revelation 20 something, it's part of the white throne judgement that I quoted earlier.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
The dead come from Hades to be judged. It can't be hell, no one comes back from hell.
Could the RCC be on to some with purgatory after all... LoL

I'd like you to know that the CC believes we do. Also, most churches believe we do except for the SDA church, which I t hink I've already stated.

Ye I know. I only just learnt that a church has this poison but i've been wondering about it for a while cos there is a fair few passages that support it.

So b4 i hit the sack we have different definitions of Sheol and Hades. But for arguments sake if we call it hell then how is it possible that people are being freed from hell, its meant to be eternal punishment.
Look into the definition while i sleep pls

Another difference is our views on salvation. U know how the RCC rolls. We're justified with Gods grace and are saved when we die and get judged.

I was confused with your explanation of not being judged but then coming back to the court room 2 or 3 times for further judgement .

Then u said paradise is the greek word for hades which means that God told the thief that he would see him in hell. That confused me.

At this point we aren't on the same page and need to agree on definitions before we can go on, true?

On a side note "espirar" means breathe in Portuguese and Italiano
Then we have "espirito" meaning spirit
The close similarity of the words makes me wonder if it came from the fact that God espirou o espirito into Adam or if its just coincidence, just how we roll.
When in Rome do as the Romans do

Anyway its late here and im tired. Ciao

 

[Butch5]

I agree that the spirit gives life to man.
When God breathed into Adam,,,,Adam was a dead form of dirt...In fact the word Adam does have something to do with dirt, or the color of dirt in that part of the world...I believe it means red dirt...but am not absolutely sure. It definitely means dirt....so,

Man was dead and had no life. God breathed life into man...man became alive and then God told man to multiply and gave to man all necessary means to multiply - just as God gave this same
capacity to plants and animals.
Genesis 1:24-25 All were to reproduce "after their own kind".
And, in fact, this is what we see in nature.

AFTER the fall, man remained alive but was the spirit of God still in him? Is the spirit of God in ALL men or just those that are born again? This is an important question to answer and will become key in this discussion.

An unsaved man does not have the spirit of God dwelling within him. Luke 11:13 tells us, in Jesus' words, that we must ASK for the Holy Spirit. And, we all know that in baptism the Holy Spirit is received in an indwelling way.

Can we agree that only the saved persons that seek God have the indwelling of the Holy Spirt?

Can we agree that this is different from that original FORCE that God breathed into Adam...

Can we agree that this force was lost after the fall when Adam was banished from the Garden and curses put upon him?


I agree but maybe not in the way that you understand the above.
I have to assume you're a Trinitarian....God is Father, Son, Spirit.
The above is referring to God's Spirit....
This is a common belief. God upholds everything,,,If He stopped upholding the universe, it would collapse.
Colossians 1:17
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

God holds all things together.
2 Peter 3:7
Hebrews 1:3

Job uses the words God's spirit...
Surely he means the Holy Spirit...
Job is the oldest book in the bible and revelation came to be more exact as time went by.
Gods' Spirit = The Holy Spirit


Yes, the life is in all things...the life is in the blood,
Leviticus 17:11a
11‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood

Certainly the Spirit is not in the blood.
Spirit, in Genesis, means life....
In Genesis 2:7 we read that God breathed LIFE into the man,
I don't understand this to be the Spirit of God....the Holy Spirit.


This breath or spirit is in everyone and upon death it returns to God.

The spirit of the BORN AGAIN BELIEVER returns to God.
Not everyone has this spirit.

My point is:
1. God breathed the breath of LIFE into man.
2. Even if it WAS the Spirit of God,,,it was lost at the fall.
3. Unsaved persons do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling...so what would return to God?
[/QUOTE]
Hi Sue,

In order to keep things in check can we address one issue at a time? I can and will gladly address all of the passages you've posted. To answer your first question. Every living being has the breath of God, both before and after the fall. The believer has it and the unbeliever has it. It's what gives life.

The Holy Breath. I believe this is another aspect of God's breath. The Scriptures speak of the spirit/breath of wisdom, knowledge, etc. I believe these are all aspects of God's breath/spirit. Believers alone are given the Holy Breath. However, the Holy Breath really doesn't bear on the question of what a man is. A man is the same thing whether he has or doesn't have the Holy Breath.

I disagree that spirit means life. It means breath. It gives life, but doesn't mean life. The Greek and Hebrew words translated soul are often translated life

Yes, the breath/spirit of every person returns to God. It's not just the believer. Again, we're not talking about the Holy Breath.

Regarding Job, I agree that God holds all things together. But that's not what Job is talking about. He's talking about God's breath keeping man alive. He said, if God were to retrieve His Neshamah and His ruach all flesh would die.

 

[Butch5]

Ye it's the only way I believe



That's not what I read.
I read that Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek.
You don't see Sheol at all in the NT as it was written in Greek
Sheol is all over the OT which was Hebrew.
The source went on to say that the two words mean the same thing but that there is no direct translation for it in English. It's not hell

I only read one source and should probably look at others but take this passage from Johns Revelation 20 something, it's part of the white throne judgement that I quoted earlier.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
The dead come from Hades to be judged. It can't be hell, no one comes back from hell.
Could the RCC be on to some with purgatory after all... LoL



Ye I know. I only just learnt that a church has this poison but i've been wondering about it for a while cos there is a fair few passages that support it.

So b4 i hit the sack we have different definitions of Sheol and Hades. But for arguments sake if we call it hell then how is it possible that people are being freed from hell, its meant to be eternal punishment.
Look into the definition while i sleep pls

Another difference is our views on salvation. U know how the RCC rolls. We're justified with Gods grace and are saved when we die and get judged.

I was confused with your explanation of not being judged but then coming back to the court room 2 or 3 times for further judgement .

Then u said paradise is the greek word for hades which means that God told the thief that he would see him in hell. That confused me.

At this point we aren't on the same page and need to agree on definitions before we can go on, true?

On a side note "espirar" means breathe in Portuguese and Italiano
Then we have "espirito" meaning spirit
The close similarity of the words makes me wonder if it came from the fact that God espirou o espirito into Adam or if its just coincidence, just how we roll.
When in Rome do as the Romans do

Anyway its late here and im tired. Ciao

You are correct about Hades and sheol. They both mean the grave in Scripture. If you look at the Greek Old Testament you'll find that they translated the Hebrew sheol to the Greek Hades. The English concept of hell is not in either word.

 

[Butch5]

Correction Butch, Sorry
But this is going to be important in this particular thread or I would have left it alone.

Your definition of dualism in incorrect:
Dualism is a heresy whereby it is believed that there are two Great Gods: A good god and an evil god.

What you are speaking of above is called DICHOTOMY.

Dichotomy believers hold that man is made of TWO PARTS:
BODY
SOUL AND SPIRIT (COMBINED)

Trichotomy believers (me) hold that man is made of THREE PARTS:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT (soul and spirit are separated).

The reason why I believe this will become apparent.

Hi Sue,

It's also called dualism. The word has different meanings depending on the how it's used. Basically it mean two.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know if we need to continue discussing Lazarus and the Rich Man, but if we do we can. Here I'm going to address the thief on the cross.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

People say this passage proves people are immediately with Jesus after death. This passage is a good example of how one's preconceptions influence translation. In the original texts there is no punctuation, it has been added by the translators. So, the punctuation has been placed where the translator believes it should be. The translators have chosen to place a comma before the word today. However, that comma could also be placed after the word today.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice above, I've simply moved the comma from before the word today to after it. Now the whole sentence has changed. Now it doesn't have Jesus and the thief in Paradise that day. Instead, it has Jesus saying it that day.

Either way is correct grammatically so either could be correct. That either could be correct means that this passage cannot be used to support the idea that the dead are alive and with Jesus.

In addition to that this passage doesn't say they would be alive in Paradise that day, it simply says they would be there. One has to "assume" that they would be alive. after all, they died on the cross. This means one is bringing a preconception to the text. Also, the Greek word Paradiesos which has been transliterated instead of translated, means a garden. What did the thief ask Jesus? He wanted to be remembered when Jesus came into His Kingdom. He didn't ask where he'd be later that afternoon. If Jesus was telling him where he'd be later that afternoon then the thief's question went unaddressed. However, if Jesus answered his question then Paradise is in the Jesus' Kingdom. In the Greek Old Testament we find the Paradise of Eden which contains the Tree of Life. In Revelation we find the Tree of life in the Paradise of God.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

The Jews expected an earthly kingdom. So, what was Jesus telling this thief? That He would be with Him in the Garden. Peter tells us that the earth will be stored. We know that Christ will reign on the earth in His Kingdom. This is where Paradise will be.

 

[Butch5]

Right !
I brought this up earlier.
Each species that was made by God was given the capability of reproducing itself....Genesis 1:22, 24, 25.....

Good point. Adam was made by God,,,but his offspring were not.
(and yet, they still had life....so the concept of life being the Spirit cannot be correct -- Gen 2:7).

The spirit isn't life. It gives life. The Breath of Life is in all flesh.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. (Gen. 6:17 KJV)

Here God tells us that the breath of life is in all flesh.

 

[Butch5]

You could post the videos for all to see...they might be interested.
I really go by what I've learned in two different denominational churches.

But it's always good to know more and see what others think and why.

I posted the link in post 37 Here is a link to it. Post 37

 

[JLB]

We're the same thing a Adam was.

No sir.

We are not sons of God, unless we are born again.

Being born from our mother’s womb does not make us a son of God. We must be born again by the Spirit.

Adam was created as a son of God, then he fell.


Adam did not reproduce sons of God made in the image and likeness of God.

Adam reproduced sons of men, made in the image and likeness of Adam, who had fallen and now possessed sin in his physical body (a sin nature) which God does not have.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Ye it's the only way I believe



That's not what I read.
I read that Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek.
You don't see Sheol at all in the NT as it was written in Greek
Sheol is all over the OT which was Hebrew.
The source went on to say that the two words mean the same thing but that there is no direct translation for it in English. It's not hell

Sheoul is Hebrew and is found in the O.T. and is the place where the dead went. They were just dead.

Gehenna is Hebrew and is also a place of the dead, but the evil go to be there.

Hades is Greek (correct) and is also a place for the dead. This is the place Jesus speaks of in Luke 16:19-31...The evil are separated from those awaiting Jesus' death and to be liberated into Heaven.

Translations have incorrectly mixed all 3 and call them hell.
There is only one place in the N.T. where hell actually is translated correctly and that is in
2 Peter 2:4
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

The word for hell is Tartarus. (Greek)

I only read one source and should probably look at others but take this passage from Johns Revelation 20 something, it's part of the white throne judgement that I quoted earlier.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
The dead come from Hades to be judged. It can't be hell, no one comes back from hell.
Could the RCC be on to some with purgatory after all... LoL

Could be!
We'll find out when the time comes...but I doubt it.

Try to find out about the white Throne Judgement.
Everyone will be at the White Throne Judgement....
The good will not be judged but will receive rewards...
The evil will go to the Lake of Fire, a final and permanent place.
The 3rd death.

Also, remember that the words Sheoul, Hades, Gehenna are used incorrectly at times. Don't put too much into the actual word...unless you plan on becoming an expert!

Ye I know. I only just learnt that a church has this poison but i've been wondering about it for a while cos there is a fair few passages that support it.

So b4 i hit the sack we have different definitions of Sheol and Hades. But for arguments sake if we call it hell then how is it possible that people are being freed from hell, its meant to be eternal punishment.
Look into the definition while i sleep pls

Have looked into this years ago.
People being freed from hell is referring to the White Thrown Judgement. The RCC does not speak about this but does know it and teach it. It does NOT teach the rapture.

In the meantime, if in your studies you find out something new or different...please post it.

Another difference is our views on salvation. U know how the RCC rolls. We're justified with Gods grace and are saved when we die and get judged.

This is not really true. Check with your friendly local priest.
We're justified by God at the moment we are born again. The CC does use the term born again; no problem.
We RECEIVE our salvation at death...but we can know right now that we are saved IF we're at the foot of the cross. As to the judgement... See John 3:18 and all I've posted about the GWTJ.
Believe it or not....the CC does use the bible.

I was confused with your explanation of not being judged but then coming back to the court room 2 or 3 times for further judgement .

I think you understand this by now.
At the GWTJ,,,,the saved are there for rewards,,,not to be judged.
We are already judged as John 3:17-18 states.

Then u said paradise is the greek word for hades which means that God told the thief that he would see him in hell. That confused me.

Hades was not hell....the good were in Abraham's Bossom Luke 16:22....they were awaiting the death of the Messiah so they could be freed to go to heaven.

I can't look this up right now...but paradise is used to mean the same place as Hades in Luke 16. Jesus had to go to Hades to free those being held in Abraham's Bossom....I don't believe this happened the same day Jesus died -- then again, who can know for sure.

If Jesus meant Heaven...why didn't He say heaven?
You could check on this....

At this point we aren't on the same page and need to agree on definitions before we can go on, true?

I wish you good luck on that! There's confusion about the different terms. I like using the terms hell and heaven and forget about the rest...anyway on this thread we're not discussing these terms. Only as they relate to WHAT IS MAN.

On a side note "espirar" means breathe in Portuguese and Italiano
Then we have "espirito" meaning spirit
The close similarity of the words makes me wonder if it came from the fact that God espirou o espirito into Adam or if its just coincidence, just how we roll.
When in Rome do as the Romans do

Anyway its late here and im tired. Ciao
[/QUOTE]
The above is interesting because when I taught about the Trinity,
I'd say that God's Word is Jesus and His Breath is the Holy Spirit.
This as a way of understanding the Trinity.

It can be said that God's breath is the Holy Spirit...but this is not what Genesis 1:27 states...it says that God breathed into him the breath of LIFE...God caused Adam to come to life.