What is a man?

[Not_Now.Soon]

You're welcome! The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a little in depth. I'm sure I'll have to address it at some point.

Thankyou for the explaination that you've had for that parable. I've not heard of that interpretation, so it's something to consider. Nonetheless, there are two other challenges I have from the bible, and one more from outside the bible.

One is while Jesus was on the cross and one of the other two people being crusified next to Jesus spoke up for Jesus, and asked for Jesus to remember him. Jesus replied that tomorrow that man would be in paradise. From this, it's hard to conclude that we will wait until being reserected before seeing an afterlife.

A second set of verses come from the old Testiment when King Saul looked for a medium to contact a ghost. Though that is against the law Saul did this in order to contact the prophet Samual who Saul had known. With this I'm mind the bible records the event like Samual responds back and give one more prophesy to Saul.

These two along with the parable of Lazerath are enough to consider that we don't soul sleep. However these two verses are not alone. In Revelation when people are reserected it reads that the grave gives up those in it to be judged. From that it sounds like there could be a soul sleep kind of deal.

Therefore I have one more challange to consider. It's on people's experiences that say they have had a near death experience. These experiences all seem to point to a phenomon of our souls going somewhere else after we die.

Either way, thanks Butch5 for the topic, and your explainations so far to consider.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thankyou for the explaination that you've had for that parable. I've not heard of that interpretation, so it's something to consider. Nonetheless, there are two other challenges I have from the bible, and one more from outside the bible.

One is while Jesus was on the cross and one of the other two people being crusified next to Jesus spoke up for Jesus, and asked for Jesus to remember him. Jesus replied that tomorrow that man would be in paradise. From this, it's hard to conclude that we will wait until being reserected before seeing an afterlife.

A second set of verses come from the old Testiment when King Saul looked for a medium to contact a ghost. Though that is against the law Saul did this in order to contact the prophet Samual who Saul had known. With this I'm mind the bible records the event like Samual responds back and give one more prophesy to Saul.

These two along with the parable of Lazerath are enough to consider that we don't soul sleep. However these two verses are not alone. In Revelation when people are reserected it reads that the grave gives up those in it to be judged. From that it sounds like there could be a soul sleep kind of deal.

Therefore I have one more challange to consider. It's on people's experiences that say they have had a near death experience. These experiences all seem to point to a phenomon of our souls going somewhere else after we die.

Either way, thanks Butch5 for the topic, and your explainations so far to consider.

I'm far from really knowing Revelation,,
but could what you speak of above (highlighted by me) have to do with the bodily resurrection? (the new earth, etc.)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm far from really knowing Revelation,,
but could what you speak of above (highlighted by me) have to do with the bodily resurrection? (the new earth, etc.)

Revelation has an epic tale that starts with Jesus opening a scroll with many seals, announcing many prophecies and judgments, and ending with the new Jerusalam and a new kingdom on earth. Just before that though is the final judgement in Revelations just after the defeat of Satan. Revelation 20:11-15 talk about the final judgement, but it's verses 11-13 that are what I was talking about the dead coming to be judged for their deeds.

Revelation 20:11-13

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

 

[GodsGrace]

Revelation has an epic tale that starts with Jesus opening a scroll with many seals, announcing many prophecies and judgments, and ending with the new Jerusalam and a new kingdom on earth. Just before that though is the final judgement in Revelations just after the defeat of Satan. Revelation 20:11-15 talk about the final judgement, but it's verses 11-13 that are what I was talking about the dead coming to be judged for their deeds.

Revelation 20:11-13

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Yes. This is the White Throne Judgement at which time all will be judged....

The saved have already been judged
John 3:18
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So their judging will be for rewards.

The unsaved will be judged also, their works will be exposed, but they will go to the final place...the Lake of Fire.

 

[Butch5]

Thankyou for the explaination that you've had for that parable. I've not heard of that interpretation, so it's something to consider. Nonetheless, there are two other challenges I have from the bible, and one more from outside the bible.

One is while Jesus was on the cross and one of the other two people being crusified next to Jesus spoke up for Jesus, and asked for Jesus to remember him. Jesus replied that tomorrow that man would be in paradise. From this, it's hard to conclude that we will wait until being reserected before seeing an afterlife.

A second set of verses come from the old Testiment when King Saul looked for a medium to contact a ghost. Though that is against the law Saul did this in order to contact the prophet Samual who Saul had known. With this I'm mind the bible records the event like Samual responds back and give one more prophesy to Saul.

These two along with the parable of Lazerath are enough to consider that we don't soul sleep. However these two verses are not alone. In Revelation when people are reserected it reads that the grave gives up those in it to be judged. From that it sounds like there could be a soul sleep kind of deal.

Therefore I have one more challange to consider. It's on people's experiences that say they have had a near death experience. These experiences all seem to point to a phenomon of our souls going somewhere else after we die.

Either way, thanks Butch5 for the topic, and your explainations so far to consider.

Hi Not_Now..Soon,

You're welcome! I've addressed the thief on the cross in here in post 56.

Regarding the event with Saul. The first thing to note is that Saul was seeking someone with a familiar spirit, a demon. What we find in the account is that neither the word spirit nor soul appear in this passage. So, the woman didn't see a soul or a spirit. The passages says that she saw gods coming up out of the earth. The Bible does refer to demons as gods. Paul said that the pagans who are worshiping their gods are actually worshiping demons. Also, note that Saul didn't see this. He asked the woman what she saw and from her description Saul "perceived" that it was Samuel. We also know that it was a demon because we're told in 1 Chronicles 13:10

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;1 (1 Chr. 10:13 KJV)

Saul was inquiring of a demon.

Regarding near death experiences, I don't really put much stock in them. Most people believe they go to Heaven when they die, and most people who claim to have these experiences have a similar account. I think it's simply the mind doing what it does.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5


OK since you called it the breath of life.


I've never heard of the Holy Breath. Is there scripture for this?




In Genesis 2:7 it states that God breathed the breath of LIFE into the man...not the breath of the spirit.

Could we try to stick to English unless it's really necessasry to get into other languages? I trust that bibles were translated in such a way as to make God be known to us.
YLT has Genesis 2:7 as life....the breath of LIFE.

We should stay with what scripture states and not change the wording as this will cause confusion.


That is true also....
God holds everything together...EVERYTHING...even us.

Neshamah means the soul, but we're discussing the spirit now.
This is totally confusing and why we must stick to English and concentrate on one aspect at a time.

Of course if God takes our soul we die...

We're discussing what man is.

So far we have a BODY.

Can we agree that the Holy Spirit dwells within believers?
1 Corinthians 3:16
16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

P.S. I'm not Sue.

Sorry about calling you Sue. That's another forum.

Yes, there is plenty of Scriptural evidence for the Holy Breath. Every place in the Bible you find the phrase "Holy Spirit" is evidence. The phrase "Holy Spirit" literally means Holy Wind or Holy Breath. As I pointed out before the Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath. Spirit is a figurative usage of these Greek and Hebrew words. It's a figure of speech.

Yes, God breathed the breath of life into man. The word breath and the word spirit are both translated from the same Greek word.

Neshamah and ruach are Hebrew words for wind or breath
Nephesh is the Hebrew word for soul
Pneuma and Noe are the Greek words for wind or breath
Psuche is the Greek word for soul.

The Holy Breath/Spirit doesn't have any bearing on out discussion of what a man is.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, and this is what I mean about confusion.

Dualism can mean a separation of two things in philosophy,,,,body and mind.

But we're discussing theology....

What Is Dualism?

Dualism argues that there are two equal and opposing realities - good and evil. These forces are in an eternal battle with one another. There are a number of

www.blueletterbible.org

It basically just means two things.

 

[Butch5]

Genesis 6:17 states the following:
17“Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
NASB

17“Look! I am about to cover the earth with a flood that will destroy every living thing that breathes. Everything on earth will die.
NLB

The breath of life is in all flesh...
I'm understanding that you mean that all living things have the breath of life in them...this cannot be denied.

Agreed.

 

[Butch5]

Whoa! It's very lengthy.
I'll TRY to watch it on my TV.
It would be good to really understand what you believe because, to tell you the truth, it's rather confusing - most of all the terminology you use.

I posted it so you could see the two videos discussing Lazarus and the Rich Man. The whole series is about the doctrine of man. It goes through a lot of what I've been saying in this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry about calling you Sue. That's another forum.

Yes, there is plenty of Scriptural evidence for the Holy Breath. Every place in the Bible you find the phrase "Holy Spirit" is evidence. The phrase "Holy Spirit" literally means Holy Wind or Holy Breath. As I pointed out before the Greek and Hebrew words mean wind or breath. Spirit is a figurative usage of these Greek and Hebrew words. It's a figure of speech.

Yes, God breathed the breath of life into man. The word breath and the word spirit are both translated from the same Greek word.

Neshamah and ruach are Hebrew words for wind or breath
Nephesh is the Hebrew word for soul
Pneuma and Noe are the Greek words for wind or breath
Psuche is the Greek word for soul.

The Holy Breath/Spirit doesn't have any bearing on out discussion of what a man is.

No problem. Just thought I'd nip it in the bud...


I'm hoping we don't have to use Greek to do this.
It might be necessary at times,,,but most times it's superfluous. since we're not scholars (at least I'm not).

 

[GodsGrace]

I posted it so you could see the two videos discussing Lazarus and the Rich Man. The whole series is about the doctrine of man. It goes through a lot of what I've been saying in this thread.

I don't really like to learn from YouTube.
I hope this isn't where you learned.
I DO watch it but stuff I already know.

So. We now have and idea of the BODY.
We know that God breathed life into Adam.

Adam became a human being.

We have agreed that SAVED persons have the Spirit of God in them...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If you agree with the above, we could move on to
understand what the SOUL is.

 

[Butch5]

No problem. Just thought I'd nip it in the bud...


I'm hoping we don't have to use Greek to do this.
It might be necessary at times,,,but most times it's superfluous. since we're not scholars (at least I'm not).

We don't have to. The reason I did is to point out that the words mean wind or breath. When most people see the word spirit, they think of a disembodied living being, something like a ghost. But, the Greek and Hebrew words have no such meaning. They don't mean anything close to that. They simply mean wind. When they're translated spirit it's a metaphor. Why would an angel of demon be called a wind? It's like Jesus said, the wind blows and you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. However, we can see the effects of the wind. We can see the leaves on trees rustle, we can feel it on our skin. It's the same with angels and demons. They come and go and we can't see them. We don't know where they come from or where they go. But, we can see the effects of them when the interact with the physical world. That's why one might call an angel or demon a wind. But it's a metaphor.

 

[Butch5]

I don't really like to learn from YouTube.
I hope this isn't where you learned.
I DO watch it but stuff I already know.

So. We now have and idea of the BODY.
We know that God breathed life into Adam.

Adam became a human being.

We have agreed that SAVED persons have the Spirit of God in them...the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If you agree with the above, we could move on to
understand what the SOUL is.

I know the teacher who does those videos. But the source shouldn't matter. It's the substance of the teaching.

Gen 2:7 tells us what a soul is. The man and the breath of life from God.

There is another reason that I use the Greek and Hebrew words. It's because the English translators sometimes use several different words to translate one Greek or Hebrew word. That causes a lot of confusion for English readers. For instance, the passage you posted yesterday from Leviticus, that the life is in the blood. The word life in that verse is the word soul. The passage actually says the soul is in the blood.

 

[Randy]

Yes, He does. It is in the Resurrection. My point is that I believe that man is dead between death and the Resurrection. He is not alive or in a state of limbo. He is dead.

Moses appeared and spoke to Jesus.

Jesus said they would NEVER die.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

They seem alive to me.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know the teacher who does those videos. But the source shouldn't matter. It's the substance of the teaching.

Gen 2:7 tells us what a soul is. The man and the breath of life from God.

There is another reason that I use the Greek and Hebrew words. It's because the English translators sometimes use several different words to translate one Greek or Hebrew word. That causes a lot of confusion for English readers. For instance, the passage you posted yesterday from Leviticus, that the life is in the blood. The word life in that verse is the word soul. The passage actually says the soul is in the blood.

Yes, I agree about the substance of the teaching. Not that I'm against YouTube...it's just that there are so many differing opinions.

Regarding Leviticus 17:11, 14 telling us the life is in the blood. Without blood there is no life. This is what it's referring to.
I don't know which version says "soul" but in any case, TODAY we an know for sure that the soul of a man is not in the blood. Only blood cells are in the blood.

If anywhere that we care to venture a guess, we'd have to say that the soul is in the brain of a living creature.

The soul is not in the blood as many verses teach.
Psalm 107:9 God has satisfied the thirsty SOUL (can the blood be thirsty?)

1 Peter 1:9 The outcome of our salvation is our soul...
(can the outcome of our salvation be our blood?)

There are many other verses like these two. The LIFE is in the blood...not the soul.


Which brings us to what is a soul?

This will be the 3rd part of man.
As 1 Thessalonians 5:23 states:
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you'd rather reply to this first?
Or tell what a soul is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Moses appeared and spoke to Jesus.

Jesus said they would NEVER die.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

They seem alive to me.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

Good points.
God is a God of the living.
Mark 12:27
27“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living;

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I agree about the substance of the teaching. Not that I'm against YouTube...it's just that there are so many differing opinions.

Regarding Leviticus 17:11, 14 telling us the life is in the blood. Without blood there is no life. This is what it's referring to.
I don't know which version says "soul" but in any case, TODAY we an know for sure that the soul of a man is not in the blood. Only blood cells are in the blood.

If anywhere that we care to venture a guess, we'd have to say that the soul is in the brain of a living creature.

The soul is not in the blood as many verses teach.
Psalm 107:9 God has satisfied the thirsty SOUL (can the blood be thirsty?)

1 Peter 1:9 The outcome of our salvation is our soul...
(can the outcome of our salvation be our blood?)

There are many other verses like these two. The LIFE is in the blood...not the soul.


Which brings us to what is a soul?

This will be the 3rd part of man.
As 1 Thessalonians 5:23 states:
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you'd rather reply to this first?
Or tell what a soul is.

Are you saying that Leviticus passage is no longer true? The soul is in the blood, that's what the passage says. The translators translated the Hebrew life instead of soul, but it's the same. Is the life in the blood? Sure, if one bleeds out they die.

The passage doesn't say the soul is blood, it says it's in the blood.

The Hebrew word is Nephesh, it's used two was in the Scriptures. It's used concretely as a living being and it's used abstractly as life.

I don't think you're getting my point. My point is that there is one part of man, the body. The breath or spirit is not man, it's something from God. The soul is these two combined, the body and the breath/spirit. The body and breath/spirit combine to form something else, the soul. If you take one atom of oxygen and two of hydrogen and combine them you get water. There aren't three parts to water. The two combine to form something new. It's the same with man. The body and the breath/spirit combine to form a living soul.

 

[Butch5]

Moses appeared and spoke to Jesus.

Jesus said they would NEVER die.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

They seem alive to me.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, e were killed just as they had been.

They appear alive if one already believes that the dead are alive. If you're referring to the Transfiguration with Moses and Jesus, Jesus said Mathew that it was a vision. Peter recounts it in his epistle as the second coming. If it's the second coming it obviously couldn't have been happening before Christ even left.

Regarding the seals, the book of Revelation is full of symbolism. So before we can use a passage from the book we really need to establish that the passage is literal. Given that I would ask, what is the significance of them being under the altar? The answer to that question goes a long way towards understanding that passage.

I would note that none of these passages teach that the dead are alive. People infer that from the text.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you saying that Leviticus passage is no longer true? The soul is in the blood, that's what the passage says. The translators translated the Hebrew life instead of soul, but it's the same. Is the life in the blood? Sure, if one bleeds out they die.

The passage doesn't say the soul is blood, it says it's in the blood.

The Hebrew word is Nephesh, it's used two was in the Scriptures. It's used concretely as a living being and it's used abstractly as life.

I don't think you're getting my point. My point is that there is one part of man, the body. The breath or spirit is not man, it's something from God. The soul is these two combined, the body and the breath/spirit. The body and breath/spirit combine to form something else, the soul. If you take one atom of oxygen and two of hydrogen and combine them you get water. There aren't three parts to water. The two combine to form something new. It's the same with man. The body and the breath/spirit combine to form a living soul.

Butch...you're point is not necessarily the correct one.

It's not that I'm not getting your point,,,it's that I don't agree with you and neither does every theologian of the Christian faith... except maybe your church - which I don't even know what it is.

You say the body and breath make the soul.
God made a living soul.
It's a figure of speech...we are ALL living souls.
If 30 persons die,,,they say 30 souls died.
We can say someone is "a lost soul"...it doesn't mean his soul is really lost---it's referring the the PERSON being lost.

It does not mean the soul in biblical terms.
If the soul dies then what are we?

You can combine the soul with the spirit...this is the view of those that believe in dichotomy...two.
You can separate the soul and spirit....this is the view of those that believe in trichotomy....three.
(the one left over being the body).

Please let's determine what the soul is.

We know what the body is. Our physical part.
We know what the spirit is. Our "God" part.

What is the SOUL:

The soul is made up of the MIND, EMOTIONS, WILL.
It is psychical.

MIND
This is the capacity to think and reason.
The mind is amoral.
We learn with the mind...we recognize the world with our mind,
we reason with our mind.

EMOTIONS
This is the capacity to experience feelings.
Our emotions are amoral.
We can feel happy, or sad, or surprised or grieved.

WILL
Within our will is our capacity to desire or choose.

Our soul is what makes each person unique.
We're all different and it's because the 3 items above are different in each person. No two persons are alike...their soul is different and is shaped by our experiences and our beliefs.


How would you explain the soul?

 

[Butch5]

Butch...you're point is not necessarily the correct one.

It's not that I'm not getting your point,,,it's that I don't agree with you and neither does every theologian of the Christian faith... except maybe your church - which I don't even know what it is.

You're free to disagree with my position. However, what I've been stating in this entire thread is from the Scriptures. It was Moses who wrote that God created the man from dust. It was Moses who wrote that God breathed into him. And, it was Moses that wrote that these two became a living soul. If you disagree with this your disagreement is with Moses.

I've not given you opinions. It's all there in the Scriptures. The same theologians that you say disagree with me understand that the Greek and Hebrews mean wind. They understand that the words translated soul mean a physical person and life. They translate the words as life in many places.

You say the body and breath make the soul.
God made a living soul.
It's a figure of speech...we are ALL living souls.
If 30 persons die,,,they say 30 souls died.
We can say someone is "a lost soul"...it doesn't mean his soul is really lost---it's referring the the PERSON being lost.

It does not mean the soul in biblical terms.
If the soul dies then what are we?

You're making my case. A soul is a living being. That's why they're called souls.

Please let's determine what the soul is.

We know what the body is. Our physical part.
We know what the spirit is. Our "God" part.

I've done that several times. It's a living person or life.

What is the SOUL:

The soul is made up of the MIND, EMOTIONS, WILL.
It is psychical.

MIND
This is the capacity to think and reason.
The mind is amoral.
We learn with the mind...we recognize the world with our mind,
we reason with our mind.

EMOTIONS
This is the capacity to experience feelings.
Our emotions are amoral.
We can feel happy, or sad, or surprised or grieved.

WILL
Within our will is our capacity to desire or choose.

Can you show me anything at all in Scripture that say the soul is the, mind, will, or emotions? There's nothing that teaches that.

Our soul is what makes each person unique.
We're all different and it's because the 3 items above are different in each person. No two persons are alike...their soul is different and is shaped by our experiences and our beliefs.

Can you explain to me how your being alive is different than my being alive?

How would you explain the soul?

I have several times already.