The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[GodsGrace]

I'd say God's Word is the window into heaven, Christ crucified and risen is the bridge.

Jesus is the final revelation.

He is also the bridge.
Plenty of great images of this on the net.

I don't care for commentaries too much, but reading some present and former Christians is a blessing.

CS Lewis? For instance...

PS
Those persons I mentioned are writers.

 

[crossnote]

This would require a really long reply.
I'll just say that the CC is 2,000 years old and all was for a reason...some not good reasons.

no problem, if old is what you are looking for, our faith, the faith of Abraham, is about 5000 years old.

 

[GodsGrace]

no problem, if old is what you are looking for, our faith, the faith of Abraham, is about 5000 years old.

Didn't mean it like that ...
I'm on a cell but if I can remember, will reply better later or tomorrow.

 

[crossnote]

The CC is not fallible.

Humans are.

Ah, so Mary was human after all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, so Mary was human after all.

Of course she was.
She supplied the human DNA....
The Holy Spirit supplied the Divine DNA.
100% human
100% divine

Jesus invented math...
And then broke the rules...

 

[crossnote]

Of course she was.
She supplied the human DNA....
The Holy Spirit supplied the Divine DNA.
100% human
100% divine

Jesus invented math...
And then broke the rules...

I agree Mary was human and therefore fallible.
Jesus is the God/man yet remains sinless.
I think I'll go to Jesus as my mediator between God and man.

oh, finite math? He only introduced infinity (eternity) into the equation.

 

[Corn Pop]

Hi Dan,
Jesus was speaking to John at the cross.
John was the only Apostle at the cross...all the others were fearful for their life and were hiding,,,maybe at the home of Martha and Mary , and Lazarus.
Jesus said to John: Here is your mother.
Jesus said to Mary: Here is your son.

John 19:25-27
…25Near the cross of Jesus stood His mother and her sister, as well as Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene.
26When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
27Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” So from that hour, this disciple took her into his home.…

I haven't seen much love given to Mary by most Protestants....they fight every honor given to her, almost as if it's their duty to do so.

As to the priest for confession...
Maybe I meant intercessor for praying?
No one is told to pray to a saint as an intercessor between the person and God.

The Orthodox church also offers confession if one cares to make use of this sacrament.
Sometimes persons find it good to talk to someone about their sins, and especially if they have a problem with one particular sin.

Personally, I don't have a problem with confession and I don't know any priest that believes it is not necessary.

I need the facts from the scripture. Something specifically saying or some sort of proof leading towards it was John. Maybe there is and i just cant find it. You said John was the only diciple at the cross then give a verse saying " Near the cross of Jesus stood His mother and her sister, as well as Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. So there was Mary, her sister, another Mary, and another Mary. Then Jesus said his mother "Mary" and the diciple he loved, te could have been one of the other Marys maybe Magdaline.

Also wondering why when Jesus said behold your mother to a diciple and behold your son somehow exalts Mary above others?

As for the confession, i think its fine people confess there sins to a Priest if they like, i think in James its says we can confess our sins to one another, but i dont see it having to be through a Priest, if someone sinns against someone they can confess it to them and ask them for forgiveness or any beliver and they can pray for them, it dont need to be a Priest. If catholics have trust and like to confess specifically to a Priest that is there choice i dont see anything wrong with it. The scripture does say we can confess our sins to one another.

 

[Corn Pop]

Im just trying to get things straight trying to figure it out.

So Jesus said to his mother "woman this is your Son", maybe referring to himself "like hey look at me on this cross im leaving", and then he said to a diciple, one he loved, after the verse above said who was there, and it was 3 different Marys and Marys sister. “Here is your mother and from that hour that disciple took her into his home.

And the original word translation is took her into "one's own home" not took her into "his own home" , so does not nessesarily represent a male figure and the scripture said who was there in the verse before.

When does John come into it?

Im ok to be corrected with scriptural facts i just put it forward what i can see and believe if i can get proven incorrect because im missing something there is more informaion for clarity thats fine its all part of learning.

 

[crossnote]

When does John come into it?

John 19:26 KJV
[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

John always referred to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', instead of using his own name.

 

[Corn Pop]

John always referred to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', instead of using his own name.

Can you show me that fact through the scripture?. If someone refers to themself as the diciple whom Jesus loved and never used there own name then how would you ever know there name if they never used it?. Scripture would somewhere have to call a person John and link them to "the diciple Jesus loved" that seems a mystery to me.

I mean it could be in scripture i dont even know im not that scriptual knowledgable and there is alot of information in there, thats why im asking if anyone can show me the scriptual fact where a specific person known as "the diciple Jesus loved" is a man named John or anything pointing towards a man named John.

 

[Corn Pop]

Im having fun investigating who the diciple who Jesus loved is. I mentioned magdaline but dont think can be her because i think she speaks to that diciple.

I leaning towards it being someone named Cleopas . The reason is the diciple is someone who goes with Peter at a specific time, and only in Luke it gives the name of a diciple that goes with Peter around that same time and is someone called Cleopas. Thats as close as i can get using the scripture.

Not sure if its another name for Clopas that is one of the Marys who was at the cross husband in John.

 

[crossnote]

Can you show me that fact through the scripture?. If someone refers to themself as the diciple whom Jesus loved and never used there own name then how would you ever know there name if they never used it?. Scripture would somewhere have to call a person John and link them to "the diciple Jesus loved" that seems a mystery to me.

I mean it could be in scripture i dont even know im not that scriptual knowledgable and there is alot of information in there, thats why im asking if anyone can show me the scriptual fact where a specific person known as "the diciple Jesus loved" is a man named John or anything pointing towards a man named John.

These people are usually pretty reliable..

Who was the disciple whom Jesus loved? | GotQuestions.org

Who was the disciple whom Jesus loved (beloved disciple)? Was the disciple whom Jesus loved John the Apostle?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Corn Pop]

These people are usually pretty reliable..

Who was the disciple whom Jesus loved? | GotQuestions.org

Who was the disciple whom Jesus loved (beloved disciple)? Was the disciple whom Jesus loved John the Apostle?

www.gotquestions.org

Because the author is unknown one can only guess from the scriptures who it was. Im still leaning towards Cleopas because only Peter and one other with him , the diciple who Jesus loved, went to the tomb, and Luke says that day that Peter and a diciple called Cleopas were on the road discussing and after speaking with Jesus on the road then they went to the rest of the diciples to tell them Jesus had risen.

Mary goes to the tomb then tells Peter and Peter and a mystery diciple go to the tomb and they did not understand he must be risen, that same day Peter and Cleopas were on the road discussing things, and Cleopas then questioned Jesus about Jesus because he didnt understand yet seemed to have known alot about Jesus and information from hpw he was speaking to Jesus, then him and Peter went and told the other diciples.

Jesus appeared to two of them while they were walking in the country. They returned and reported it to the rest but they did not believe them. Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven. So Peter and this disciple knew before the others.

Peter and one other person went to the tomb. Peter that day was walking with one other person called Cleopas not any other of the diciples. Still does not confirm anything im just trying to figure it out.

Even on the boat it names some of the diciples and but also says 2 other diciples, maybe one was Cleopas. Maybe Cleopas is a name whoever wrote Luke gave John so it is the apostle John.

12 apostles are mentioned all the time in the scripture but Jesus had many followers and diciples.

I might be completly wrong in my guess but i will have to do more study. And maybe stop derailing this thread. Lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

I need the facts from the scripture. Something specifically saying or some sort of proof leading towards it was John. Maybe there is and i just cant find it. You said John was the only diciple at the cross then give a verse saying " Near the cross of Jesus stood His mother and her sister, as well as Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. So there was Mary, her sister, another Mary, and another Mary. Then Jesus said his mother "Mary" and the diciple he loved, te could have been one of the other Marys maybe Magdaline.

I think I posted scripture.
John was the Disciple that Jesus loved.
John was the only disciple at the cross.
Jesus did not entrust His mother to one of the other Marys. He entrusted His mother to John.
These are known facts...I'm not sure how to give you any further proof.
You could google it I guess.
Tertullian confirmed that John was the beloved of Jesus,,,but you'd have to look up the Early Church Fathers....
It is also confirmed by all commentators (look it up).

This is why the CC feels Mary is the Mother of the Church, because Jesus entrusted her to a Disciple (later called Apostle)
and John to her....As she became John's "mother", she became of mother of all disciples.

Also wondering why when Jesus said behold your mother to a diciple and behold your son somehow exalts Mary above others?

Mary should be exhalted above others because she bore and raised our Savior!
God chose HER to be the mother of Jesus at the incarnation.
No other reason should be necessary.
But think of how she must have felt as His mother to see Him scorned by the very Jews of which they were a part, to see Him betrayed by them and killed by crucifixion for having done nothing in the scope that others crucified had.
Of course the Jews wanted Jesus dead for political reasons and because He claimed to be God...they wanted to maintain their power and their "throne".
He was a danger for them.

The rest is explained just above.

As for the confession, i think its fine people confess there sins to a Priest if they like, i think in James its says we can confess our sins to one another, but i dont see it having to be through a Priest, if someone sinns against someone they can confess it to them and ask them for forgiveness or any beliver and they can pray for them, it dont need to be a Priest. If catholics have trust and like to confess specifically to a Priest that is there choice i dont see anything wrong with it. The scripture does say we can confess our sins to one another.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[crossnote]

Mary should be exhalted above others because she bore and raised our Savior!
God chose HER to be the mother of Jesus at the incarnation.
No other reason should be necessary.

Well, at least she confessed her need for a Saviour, putting her in the same boat as the rest of us…The HMS Calvary…

Luke 1:46-47 KJV
[46] And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, at least she confessed her need for a Saviour, putting her in the same boat as the rest of us…The HMS Calvary…

Luke 1:46-47 KJV
[46] And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

I've heard this all my life after becoming Protestant.
I'm not sure I fully understand this....
That Mary needed a Savior.
Did she?
God chose her....yes, a calvinist type choosing... (God certainly did choose some in the bible).
Gabriel said: Hail Mary FULL of grace.
Is someone full of grace still in need of a savior, or are they saved already?

I know that Paul said there is none righteous...
But don't you think Mary was right with God from the outset?

 

[crossnote]

Is someone full of grace still in need of a savior, or are they saved already?

I know that Paul said there is none righteous...
But don't you think Mary was right with God from the outset?

Mary was right with God the same way others become right with God and that is through faith in the redemptive promises of God. Sometimes God proclaims a person righteous in Scripture through a foreknowing of their faith.
Rome teaches the concept of infused (as a substance deposited) grace, whereas Scriptures teach of justifying faith as a declaration of righteousness from God based on faith in Jesus Christ (due to His merits of righteousness).

 

[GodsGrace]

Mary was right with God the same way others become right with God and that is through faith in the redemptive promises of God. Sometimes God proclaims a person righteous in Scripture through a foreknowing of their faith.
Rome teaches the concept of infused (as a substance deposited) grace, whereas Scriptures teach of justifying faith as a declaration of righteousness from God based on faith in Jesus Christ (due to His merits of righteousness).

I'm of the opinion that Mary was always saved.
I may be wrong....scripture is silent on this and it's not right to assume...it's just my opinion. (based on Luke)

Did God foreknow Mary would say the big YES,,,,
or did He choose her from the beginning of time: This is a question that I'm not sure can be answered, unless one is reformed in theology - then EVERYONE is chosen before time.
However, I tend to lean toward the belief that Mary was chosen of God.
This is why she is called the Immaculate Conception -- she was without the sin nature from birth so that she could be the vessel for God incarnated.

How do you explain infused grace?

 

[crossnote]

I'm of the opinion that Mary was always saved.

I may be wrong....scripture is silent on this and it's not right to assume...it's just my opinion.

Scripture isn't silent on it since from Adam we have all inherited a sin nature.

Did God foreknow Mary would say the big YES,,,,
or did He choose her from the beginning of time: This is a question that I'm not sure can be answered, unless one is reformed in theology - then EVERYONE is chosen before time.

I believe God is omniscient and knows all things in and out of time.

However, I tend to lean toward the belief that Mary was chosen of God.
This is why she is called the Immaculate Conception -- she was without the sin nature from birth so that she could be the vessel for God incarnated.

Does that mean Mary's mother was also immaculately conceived (without sin)...ad infinitum back to Eve?

How do you explain infused grace?

Taken from the 'horse's mouth'...

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theologians to describe in metaphorical terms how God “pours” grace into our souls or, to put it another way, “fills” us with his grace. The word “infused” denotes the idea of something being “poured into” and is seen most commonly in the Latin formula gratia infusia. This language is symbolic, of course, but it is certainly biblical. Some Protestant critics of the Catholic Church criticize the concept of infused grace as being “unbiblical,” but as the following verses show, the concept is completely biblical.

Infused Grace

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theol...

www.catholic.com

We are infused with the Holy Spirit upon faith, but not before then. (After all I'm not Reformed lol).
Instead...

Romans 5:1-2 (NASB) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture isn't silent on it since from Adam we have all inherited a sin nature.

Do you believe our sin nature just vanishes when we become born again or do you believe it is put under submission?

I believe in the second.
I just don't find it difficult to believe that Mary was not born with our sin nature.
I believe God chose her and prepared her.
But I'm repeating because I don't know how we could be certain of this...

I believe God is omniscient and knows all things in and out of time.

I agree with this.
He also knew who would come to believe and be saved...
not that God chose who would be saved.
What is predestined are other conditions - but that's a different thread...

Does that mean Mary's mother was also immaculately conceived (without sin)...ad infinitum back to Eve?

LOL
I knew you'd say this.
In the theory of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was miraculously freed from the sin nature at the moment of her conception.
This is why I say that God CHOSE her...This would have to be necessarily true IF she was born free of the sin nature.

So, it would not have to go back to her mother and all the way back to Eve.
Catholics are not dumb...they just have their own beliefs - and reasons for them.

(I'm not saying you stated that they're dumb...I'm stating that they are not).

Taken from the 'horse's mouth'...

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theologians to describe in metaphorical terms how God “pours” grace into our souls or, to put it another way, “fills” us with his grace. The word “infused” denotes the idea of something being “poured into” and is seen most commonly in the Latin formula gratia infusia. This language is symbolic, of course, but it is certainly biblical. Some Protestant critics of the Catholic Church criticize the concept of infused grace as being “unbiblical,” but as the following verses show, the concept is completely biblical.

Infused Grace

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theol...

www.catholic.com

We are infused with the Holy Spirit upon faith, but not before then. (After all I'm not Reformed lol).

OK.
This is the meaning of infused grace as understood in the CC.
If you read carefully what it states....the "pouring into"...Isn't this what happens to us?
The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us....
We are given more and more grace, as we use what we already have.
IOW,,,if we use the grace God gives to us...He will give us more.
If we obey Him...He will give us all the grace we need so that we can obey Him even more.

Doesn't this sound like infused grace to you?

Instead...

Romans 5:1-2 (NASB) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Amen.
Yes,,,,everything we have is because of God's grace.