The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[GodsGrace]

Scripture isn't silent on it since from Adam we have all inherited a sin nature.

I believe God is omniscient and knows all things in and out of time.

Does that mean Mary's mother was also immaculately conceived (without sin)...ad infinitum back to Eve?

Taken from the 'horse's mouth'...

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theologians to describe in metaphorical terms how God “pours” grace into our souls or, to put it another way, “fills” us with his grace. The word “infused” denotes the idea of something being “poured into” and is seen most commonly in the Latin formula gratia infusia. This language is symbolic, of course, but it is certainly biblical. Some Protestant critics of the Catholic Church criticize the concept of infused grace as being “unbiblical,” but as the following verses show, the concept is completely biblical.

Infused Grace

Infused grace is a term often used by Catholic theol...

www.catholic.com

We are infused with the Holy Spirit upon faith, but not before then. (After all I'm not Reformed lol).
Instead...

Romans 5:1-2 (NASB) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Just read the article...
I find no problem with it....

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

I think I posted scripture.
John was the Disciple that Jesus loved.
John was the only disciple at the cross.
Jesus did not entrust His mother to one of the other Marys. He entrusted His mother to John.
These are known facts...I'm not sure how to give you any further proof.
You could google it I guess.
Tertullian confirmed that John was the beloved of Jesus,,,but you'd have to look up the Early Church Fathers....
It is also confirmed by all commentators (look it up).

The evidence is not clear who it is so one can only assume so its not a fact it was John. And i dont see it a big issue who it was anyhow, it was obvioulsy some eye witness that wrote the original and gave testimony.

Humans add to the bible but the scriptual text is still truth. Like the start of Pauls letters for example were not written by Paul. "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes". Paul did not write that it was added by someone.

Just because the book is called John dont mean it was john who wrote it. Im even now thinking could have been Lazarus.

Im going to do a in depth study on who this diciple most likely could be and why and see where the scripture leads me.

 

[crossnote]

Do you believe our sin nature just vanishes when we become born again or do you believe it is put under submission?

I believe in the second.

I just don't find it difficult to believe that Mary was not born with our sin nature.
I believe God chose her and prepared her.
But I'm repeating because I don't know how we could be certain of this...

I concur with the 2nd, but am quite certain...

Romans 7:24 (NASB) Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Galatians 5:17 (NASB) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

I won't quibble whether one calls it 'the flesh/old man or sin nature'

LOL
I knew you'd say this.
In the theory of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was miraculously freed from the sin nature at the moment of her conception.
This is why I say that God CHOSE her...This would have to be necessarily true IF she was born free of the sin nature.

So, it would not have to go back to her mother and all the way back to Eve.
Catholics are not dumb...they just have their own beliefs - and reasons for them.

(I'm not saying you stated that they're dumb...I'm stating that they are not).

So God chose Mary to free her from the sin nature, or she was freed first and then God chose her?

You know as in the Incarnation, so also in the Inspiration of Scripture we also see God using 'sinful vessels' to communicate His Word in such a way that it remains unpolluted by man's sinfulness. I believe the same took place with the Virgin Birth.

This is the meaning of infused grace as understood in the CC.
If you read carefully what it states....the "pouring into"...Isn't this what happens to us?
The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us....
We are given more and more grace, as we use what we already have.
IOW,,,if we use the grace God gives to us...He will give us more.
If we obey Him...He will give us all the grace we need so that we can obey Him even more.

Doesn't this sound like infused grace to you?

No, I am already full...

Colossians 2:9-10 (NASB) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1:27 (NASB) to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I've heard this all my life after becoming Protestant.
I'm not sure I fully understand this....
That Mary needed a Savior.
Did she?
God chose her....yes, a calvinist type choosing... (God certainly did choose some in the bible).
Gabriel said: Hail Mary FULL of grace.
Is someone full of grace still in need of a savior, or are they saved already?

I know that Paul said there is none righteous...
But don't you think Mary was right with God from the outset?

Mary is the mother of the god-man Jesus.
She is not the mother of the trinity.
It is actually, hail, Mary full of (God's) grace

 

[GodsGrace]

The evidence is not clear who it is so one can only assume so its not a fact it was John. And i dont see it a big issue who it was anyhow, it was obvioulsy some eye witness that wrote the original and gave testimony.

Humans add to the bible but the scriptual text is still truth. Like the start of Pauls letters for example were not written by Paul. "Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes". Paul did not write that it was added by someone.

Just because the book is called John dont mean it was john who wrote it. Im even now thinking could have been Lazarus.

Im going to do a in depth study on who this diciple most likely could be and why and see where the scripture leads me.

OK
And while you're at it, you'll find that John wrote John and Paul wrote at least 7 of his letters,,,I think it's 7...

I agree that even though it's difficult to know which manuscript is the correct one, the scriptural text is still a proper representation of what Jesus taught.

Happy studying!
We're always learning.

 

[GodsGrace]

I concur with the 2nd, but am quite certain...

Romans 7:24 (NASB) Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Galatians 5:17 (NASB) For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

I won't quibble whether one calls it 'the flesh/old man or sin nature'



So God chose Mary to free her from the sin nature, or she was freed first and then God chose her?

You know as in the Incarnation, so also in the Inspiration of Scripture we also see God using 'sinful vessels' to communicate His Word in such a way that it remains unpolluted by man's sinfulness. I believe the same took place with the Virgin Birth.

No, I am already full...

Colossians 2:9-10 (NASB) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1:27 (NASB) to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Am on a cell and need my computer for this.
Interesting points...
Tomorrow.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

There was one practice i didnt understand with the catholic church but i acturly think there is nothing wrong with it, and that is Confession. There si nothing wrong with any believer confessing to a believer or even someone they may have done wrong directly.

I understand to a "Catholic" a so called "Priest", that i will now humble them as just a believer like anyone else someone can confess there sins is fine, and if someone choose to confess to a specific person no matter who it is, in my biblical belief i dont see it as wrong.

Its not using a substitute for Jesus as a mediator as i thought, its just believers confessing to other believers that they personally trust as a believer themselves who prays for them. Thats biblical.

I now accept that the catholic practice of confession is ok. I was a bit hesitant before . And i never got influenced for this post i like to study the scriptures myself as well just not believe what im told..

Im still a individual non denominational believer follower of Christ, so no im not a Catholic or becoming a Catholic whatever that is, and will never label myself as anything just like the diciple who Jesus loved never labelled themself.

 

[crossnote]

There was one practice i didnt understand with the catholic church but i acturly think there is nothing wrong with it, and that is Confession. There si nothing wrong with any believer confessing to a believer or even someone they may have done wrong directly.

I understand to a "Catholic" a so called "Priest", that i will now humble them as just a believer like anyone else someone can confess there sins is fine, and if someone choose to confess to a specific person no matter who it is, in my biblical belief i dont see it as wrong.

Its not using a substitute for Jesus as a mediator as i thought, its just believers confessing to other believers that they personally trust as a believer themselves who prays for them. Thats biblical.

I now accept that the catholic practice of confession is ok. I was a bit hesitant before . And i never got influenced for this post i like to study the scriptures myself as well just not believe what im told..

Im still a individual non denominational believer follower of Christ, so no im not a Catholic or becoming a Catholic whatever that is, and will never label myself as anything just like the diciple who Jesus loved never labelled themself.

I agree, confessing our sins to one another is biblical, but for someone to stand in the place of our High Priest and proclaiming forgiveness…well let’s just say I wouldn’t be able to walk away assured my sins were forgiven…

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


1 John 1:9 KJV
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

I agree, confessing our sins to one another is biblical, but for someone to stand in the place of our High Priest and proclaiming forgiveness…well let’s just say I wouldn’t be able to walk away assured my sins were forgiven…

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


1 John 1:9 KJV
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Exactly, God forgives us just as he gave an example for us to do the same thing for our brothers and sisters in him though Christ.

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

If someone confess there sins to someone then that person has trust in that person as a fellow brother or sister for prayer for them. That is biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree, confessing our sins to one another is biblical, but for someone to stand in the place of our High Priest and proclaiming forgiveness…well let’s just say I wouldn’t be able to walk away assured my sins were forgiven…

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


1 John 1:9 KJV
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The priest is "like" Jesus
...IOW the person is confessing to God.
The priest, as you've stayed, proclaims that the person is forgiven. Some need this. Only God forgives sin.

Persons also go to confession to speak to the priest,,,for advice maybe.

This practice changes nothing...
A person is still confessing to God
And God is still doing the forgiving.

If a person is not truly sorry for the sin, confession is worthless.

 

[GodsGrace]

There was one practice i didnt understand with the catholic church but i acturly think there is nothing wrong with it, and that is Confession. There si nothing wrong with any believer confessing to a believer or even someone they may have done wrong directly.

I understand to a "Catholic" a so called "Priest", that i will now humble them as just a believer like anyone else someone can confess there sins is fine, and if someone choose to confess to a specific person no matter who it is, in my biblical belief i dont see it as wrong.

Its not using a substitute for Jesus as a mediator as i thought, its just believers confessing to other believers that they personally trust as a believer themselves who prays for them. Thats biblical.

I now accept that the catholic practice of confession is ok. I was a bit hesitant before . And i never got influenced for this post i like to study the scriptures myself as well just not believe what im told..

Im still a individual non denominational believer follower of Christ, so no im not a Catholic or becoming a Catholic whatever that is, and will never label myself as anything just like the diciple who Jesus loved never labelled themself.

As I've learned, I also have changed my belief about some teachings of different churches.
We have to be personally convicted of what we believe to be the truth since that is what we will be judged upon.
Even if we're wrong....
Jesus didn't make everything very clear...did He?

 

[crossnote]

The priest is "like" Jesus
...IOW the person is confessing to God.
The priest, as you've stayed, proclaims that the person is forgiven. Some need this. Only God forgives sin.
Persons also go to confession to speak to the priest,,,for advice maybe.

This practice changes nothing...
A person is still confessing to God
And God is still doing the forgiving.

If a person is not truly sorry for the sin, confession is worthless.

I'm not one for substitutes, I'd rather go to the real deal by faith.

1 John 1:9 (NASB) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Hebrews 2:17 (NASB) Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1 (NASB) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Hebrews 4:15 (NASB) For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 6:20 (NASB) where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:1 (NASB) For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Hebrews 7:26 (NASB) For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Hebrews 8:1 (NASB) Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,


Hebrews 9:11 (NASB) But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Hebrews 9:25 (NASB) nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Here is the way for the Christian...

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[WIP]

This is why she is called the Immaculate Conception -- she was without the sin nature from birth so that she could be the vessel for God incarnated.

Is the idea of immaculate conception supported in Scripture somewhere? I often think that the church came up with this dogma because the church couldn't come to grips with the idea that she could possibly be just another human.

The text often cited is Luke 1:28 however, searching through many common translations the only translations that use the phrase "full of grace" when describing Mary, is the Catholic Bibles. All the rest use a phrase similar to "favored one."

Even the phrase, full of grace, really implies that God bestowed upon her His grace. If it means to be immaculate, then we all become immaculate when God gives us His grace as well.

 

[WIP]

I agree, confessing our sins to one another is biblical, but for someone to stand in the place of our High Priest and proclaiming forgiveness…well let’s just say I wouldn’t be able to walk away assured my sins were forgiven…

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


1 John 1:9 KJV
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But at the same time Jesus did say this....

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 18:15-18 NKJV

Also....

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:15-19 NKJV

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

As I've learned, I also have changed my belief about some teachings of different churches.
We have to be personally convicted of what we believe to be the truth since that is what we will be judged upon.
Even if we're wrong....
Jesus didn't make everything very clear...did He?

At times like this, I ask Ralph for his opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

At times like this, I ask Ralph for his opinion.

Does Ralph agree with you?

 

[crossnote]

But at the same time Jesus did say this....

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 18:15-18 NKJV

I believe I said "I agree, confessing our sins to one another is biblical," in my post you quoted.

Also....

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth [h]will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Which is supposed to mean what?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not one for substitutes, I'd rather go to the real deal by faith.

1 John 1:9 (NASB) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Hebrews 2:17 (NASB) Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1 (NASB) Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Hebrews 4:15 (NASB) For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 6:20 (NASB) where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:1 (NASB) For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Hebrews 7:26 (NASB) For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Hebrews 8:1 (NASB) Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,


Hebrews 9:11 (NASB) But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Hebrews 9:25 (NASB) nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Here is the way for the Christian...

Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Sure.
But if you bring up a question regarding the CC, I'm going to answer it.

Just like I explain the Protestant beliefs to Catholics....

 

[GodsGrace]

Is the idea of immaculate conception supported in Scripture somewhere? I often think that the church came up with this dogma because the church couldn't come to grips with the idea that she could possibly be just another human.

I don't see this idea in scripture.
I also don't think Mary is "just another woman". And I don't think you meant it in that way.
Gabriel called Mary the favored woman.

The text often cited is Luke 1:28 however, searching through many common translations the only translations that use the phrase "full of grace" when describing Mary, is the Catholic Bibles. All the rest use a phrase similar to "favored one."

Agreed.
It says something about grace and favored. I don't think it's so easy to translate Greek into English.

Even the phrase, full of grace, really implies that God bestowed upon her His grace. If it means to be immaculate, then we all become immaculate when God gives us His grace as well.

Immaculate Conception means that Mary was born without the sin nature, or concupiscense.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sure.
But if you bring up a question regarding the CC, I'm going to answer it.

Just like I explain the Protestant beliefs to Catholics....

Why did the pope say to not eat meat on Fridays?