The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[GodsGrace]

Im a bit confused. Jesus pointed to his disciples and called them his mother and brothers. As for "woman behold your son" and a diciple he said " behold your mother", whos to say the disciple Jesus loved was not one of his half brothers the diciple he was talking to so its it own Mother?. Scripture doesnt define who it was. And he just told them to take care of each other. Thats normal. I dont see what the big deal about it is. Sure to be known as blessed and loved by the church but i dont see anything more than that.

You said catholics believe sins must be confessed to a priest, yet at the same time you said no one is told to go through a mediator. Im not understanding what you mean here.

Hi Dan,
Jesus was speaking to John at the cross.
John was the only Apostle at the cross...all the others were fearful for their life and were hiding,,,maybe at the home of Martha and Mary , and Lazarus.
Jesus said to John: Here is your mother.
Jesus said to Mary: Here is your son.

John 19:25-27
…25Near the cross of Jesus stood His mother and her sister, as well as Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene.
26When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
27Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” So from that hour, this disciple took her into his home.…

I haven't seen much love given to Mary by most Protestants....they fight every honor given to her, almost as if it's their duty to do so.

As to the priest for confession...
Maybe I meant intercessor for praying?
No one is told to pray to a saint as an intercessor between the person and God.

The Orthodox church also offers confession if one cares to make use of this sacrament.
Sometimes persons find it good to talk to someone about their sins, and especially if they have a problem with one particular sin.

Personally, I don't have a problem with confession and I don't know any priest that believes it is not necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Also if a person is not born again by God's Spirit he is not in God's family no matter what his pedigree is.

What did Jesus mean in
John 20:22-23 ??
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Also if a person is not born again by God's Spirit he is not in God's family no matter what his pedigree is.

P.S.
Agreed on your 2nd paragraph.
And the CC agrees too.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have to correct you. It comes from the Latin Pontifex Maximus, which means “chief bridge builder”. It was given to the bishop of Rome after the Roman Empire split into two. The Western emperor, Gracian, bestowed the title on Pope Damasus, who became the first pope to have this title. It was a highly symbolic gesture at the time, signifying the bishop of Rome as the chief bridge builder between the East and West and that religious authority rests not in emperors, but in the bishop of Rome.

Hi Walpole....
Yes, it means bridge builder and of course the original language was Latin and not Italian.
I did read about what I stated in a Catholic Forum a few years ago.
I thought it was a nice thought....
But if you say it means a bridge between the East and West, so be it!
Agreed that it pertained, eventually, ONLY to the Bishop of Rome....
Il Pontefice
The Pope
(sorry, I only know Italian, but it's so similar).

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess the blood of Christ is insufficient?...

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Someone started this thread....
It's good to know what Catholics really believe...there are many misconception in the Protestant world.

So, I'm explaining doctrine - it doesn't mean I agree with it.
What you've stated above is exactly why I do not agree with the doctrine of Purgatory and I happen to know for sure that even some priests do not believe it is anywhere to be found in the N.T.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great! What shall we call it? Maybe 'Church of the Holy Scriptures'? You can be The Most Right Reverend Joan of Arc!... Nevermind.

No Crossnote...you cannot disagree with me on this point.

I know of a A of G church near Milan that had a schism with some of the congregation who then started their own church...
and guess what it was about?
THE DEITY OF CHRIST!

You cannot deny that there are hundreds, if not thousands (counting non-denominatinal) of denominations within Protestantism.
This does not happen with the CC.
It remains united. (within each rite).

 

[Walpole]

Hi Walpole....
Yes, it means bridge builder and of course the original language was Latin and not Italian.
I did read about what I stated in a Catholic Forum a few years ago.
I thought it was a nice thought....
But if you say it means a bridge between the East and West, so be it!
Agreed that it pertained, eventually, ONLY to the Bishop of Rome....
Il Pontefice
The Pope
(sorry, I only know Italian, but it's so similar).

Stating the pope is a bridge builder between heaven and earth perpetuates the false idea that Catholics believe the pope is some sort of demigod.

I thought it was important to explain why and how his title came to be. The bishop of Rome did not bestow the title on himself. It was given to him and the historical context (division of the Roman Empire) gives it meaning.

 

[crossnote]

that's an excellent point, crossnote . I was surprised by some Barna data (data collection company headed by a Christian social scientist) on the % of --church leaders-- who held to the basics of a Christian worldview...

even the "conservative" and/or what unbelievers call "Holy roller" denominations...not good news, I'm afraid. the right wing can be just as deadly and treacherous in terms of false teachers, etc. as the left wing and/or 'progressive' denominations, that much is abundantly clear. a lie is a lie a lie...

The continuationist/cessationist debate definitely has little to no relationship to the Gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

Stating the pope is a bridge builder between heaven and earth perpetuates the false idea that Catholics believe the pope is some sort of demigod.

I thought it was important to explain why and how his title came to be. The bishop of Rome did not bestow the title on himself. It was given to him and the historical context (division of the Roman Empire) gives it meaning.

I understood why it was important to you to explain why the pope is not a bridge between heaven and earth.

In a poetic way, I would say all teachers are.
St. Teresa of Avila is a bridge...
Scott Hahn is a bridge...
Benedict, and many others.

Just my own thoughts.

 

[Walpole]

I understood why it was important to you to explain why the pope is not a bridge between heaven and earth.

In a poetic way, I would say all teachers are.
St. Teresa of Avila is a bridge...
Scott Hahn is a bridge...
Benedict, and many others.

Just my own thoughts.

I just wanted to clarify, especially given many of the misconceptions people have about the pope and his office.

 

[crossnote]

What did Jesus mean in
John 20:22-23 ??
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

This was after His death and resurrection, so when He breathed on them, He was imparting the new birth to the disciples, so that whoever sin they remitted or retained it was so.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (Joh 20:20, 19)

Born again disciples comprising the Church have that authority. It does not refer to any form of sacerdotalism, if that is what you are hinting at.

I use to hang around these Lutherans who tried their darnest to follow Rome in 'confession and absolution' and would use that verse extensively to justify their 'elevated' position amongst the laity.

 

[crossnote]

P.S.
Agreed on your 2nd paragraph.
And the CC agrees too.

the CC may agree with the necessity of the new birth, but how one becomes born again is a different ball of wax.

 

[crossnote]

Someone started this thread....
It's good to know what Catholics really believe...there are many misconception in the Protestant world.

So, I'm explaining doctrine - it doesn't mean I agree with it.
What you've stated above is exactly why I do not agree with the doctrine of Purgatory and I happen to know for sure that even some priests do not believe it is anywhere to be found in the N.T.

So are you saying the RCC is fallible?

 

[GodsGrace]

This was after His death and resurrection, so when He breathed on them, He was imparting the new birth to the disciples, so that whoever sin they remitted or retained it was so.

I've pondered this verse many times.
It was after the resurrection. OK.
But there are so many differing opinions as to what Jesus meant.
We're separated by many years, culture and language. Maybe the Apostles had the authority to know who was repentant and to ANNOUNCE the forgiveness of sins, and V V ?
Does this continue to this day?

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (Joh 20:20, 19)

Born again disciples comprising the Church have that authority. It does not refer to any form of sacerdotalism, if that is what you are hinting at.

Born again persons have what authority?

I use to hang around these Lutherans who tried their darnest to follow Rome in 'confession and absolution' and would use that verse extensively to justify their 'elevated' position amongst the laity.

What! Never heard of this...
We can only forgive those who sin against us personally. And then leave the rest to God...

 

[crossnote]

No Crossnote...you cannot disagree with me on this point.

I know of a A of G church near Milan that had a schism with some of the congregation who then started their own church...
and guess what it was about?
THE DEITY OF CHRIST!

You cannot deny that there are hundreds, if not thousands (counting non-denominatinal) of denominations within Protestantism.
This does not happen with the CC.
It remains united. (within each rite).

Right, united with itself, unfortunately, not with God's Word as it adds mediators, rituals and man's own reasonings to God's revelation in His Word.

 

[crossnote]

I understood why it was important to you to explain why the pope is not a bridge between heaven and earth.

In a poetic way, I would say all teachers are.
St. Teresa of Avila is a bridge...
Scott Hahn is a bridge...
Benedict, and many others.

Just my own thoughts.

I'd say God's Word is the window into heaven, Christ crucified and risen is the bridge.

 

[GodsGrace]

So are you saying the RCC is fallible?

The CC is not fallible.

Humans are.

 

[crossnote]

I've pondered this verse many times.
It was after the resurrection. OK.
But there are so many differing opinions as to what Jesus meant.
We're separated by many years, culture and language. Maybe the Apostles had the authority to know who was repentant and to ANNOUNCE the forgiveness of sins, and V V ?
Does this continue to this day?

People still receive the new birth today and sins are proclaimed forgiven in the Church when someone comes to the Lord, unfortunately Church discipline is at a low...on both sides of the aisle.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, united with itself, unfortunately, not with God's Word as it adds mediators, rituals and man's own reasonings to God's revelation in His Word.

This would require a really long reply.
I'll just say that the CC is 2,000 years old and all was for a reason...some not good reasons.

 

[GodsGrace]

People still receive the new birth today and sins are proclaimed forgiven in the Church when someone comes to the Lord, unfortunately Church discipline is at a low...on both sides of the aisle.

Agreed.

Also, it used to be that membership to the church was denied if the person was in sin and not repentant. This in the early church....